Why is predestination wrong

[Seeking12]

Why is predestination wrong?

It is not; in case anyone has forgotten the title of the thread.

 

[guanophore]

It is a bit of a stretch to say that “God wants everybody to be saved” is the equivalent of “God will do everything He can to bring that about.”

I often find scripture to “stretch” me.

When He says He desires all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the Truth, He means “all”. Indeed, He most certainly has done everything He could to bring that about, not even witholidng His own Son, but giving Him up as a ransom.

If God wants EVERYONE to be saved, then they will be.

No. God has ordained that we should choose.

 Since we know that not everyone will be saved, then it is clear that this passage CANNOT MEAN that God wants everyone to be saved.

I am sure, in your world, it means that. This is not what the Apostles taught.

It’s not that hard to understand!

Evidently it is.

]No, I am saying that man disobeys by his own will. But this is as God designed it. Why does a Tasmanian Devil eat lizards, frogs and insects? Because that’s how God designed him

You are on the right track. God has designed humans so that they have a choice. they can obey, or disobey. Ths is what it means to be made in the image and likeness of God. He created the angels with this ability also, and some chose not to serve Him.

God doesn’t cause men to sin. They sin of their own accord.

Indeed, and by doing so, disqualify themselves for eternal life.

 He allows it.  Just as you said, they CHOOSE this course.  God does not make them choose it.

Yes, we are in agreement on that point.

 

[JWB152]

You are looking at this from the fallen human perspective of what is justice and not from God’s purpose for creation. We are secondary to the primary, which is the glorification of God.

Here are few versus to ponder just from Romans and John.

Romans 9 (poor Pharaoh) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.”

The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory

9 "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and **I have been glorified in them. **

Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

You see this is about God’s glory primarily, we are secondary. If one is part of the “elect”, then what a communion one will have with the Trinity, better than the angels.

 

[PEPCIS]

"benedictus:

But you did not answer my question, would you send your daughter or son to eternal damnation if you have the power to give them the grace to change? I would really like an unequivocal answer from you, personally.

PEPCIS:

can’t, and won’t, answer the question because it is invalid. God does not give power to EVERYONE to believe. That was a notion which was taught by Pelagius in the 3rd and 4th century which the Catholic Church condemned at the Council of Carthage (418) as Heresy.

But [the question] is not invalid. It is a hypothetical question. I am no asking about what God will do. I am asking what will YOU do? So IF YOU are a judge.and one of your errant daughters/sons has been brought before you because they have committed a crime. You can have them electrocuted or you can have them jailed and while in jail have them reformed. These are all in your power. What will you do?

Assuming that I am a “Good” judge? I will have to do whatever the law requires.

benedictus:

There is nothing invalid about that question.

But there most certainly is. God is the perfect judge. You are trying to get me to say that if I judge such and such a way, why wouldn’t God judge just like a man? Well, that’s because God’s ways are so far higher than that of man’s.

[SIGN]“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.” —Isaiah 55:9[/SIGN]

benedictus:

I think you are afraid to answer because deep in your heart you know that if you are the parent and you have the power, the ability to change your son, you will choose that option because you love your son. But if you choose that option then that makes your more merciful than God.

No, it only makes me human. God is still God, and His ways are still perfect. If the law required me to condemn my son to death, me (being the imperfect creature that I am) would still choose AGAINST THE LAW. That would make me a BAD JUDGE. I thank God that He is the GOOD AND PERFECT JUDGE.

God does not love “unconditionally” and the Bible does not teach that.

benedictus:

Yes, He does and yes it does.

Then SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!

benedictus:

If you really believe that then that is really sad.

I not only believe it, I proved it by the Bible. You, on the other hand, make BOLD claims that you cannot Biblically back up. I’m still waiting… ::taps foot impatiently::

1. 
   *]Christ died for “us” (that would be the elect) while we were still sinners.
   *]Christ died for the elect ONLY.

1. 
   
   
   benedictus:
   

   God created all human beings.

1. 
   
   No. God SPECIALLY created Adam and Eve. We are His creation by prodigy, not by special creation. We are, however, still answerable to Him.
   bendictus:
   

   If Christ died only for the elect (for which there is really no criteria save for god’s whim), therefore He purposely created some with the view of saving them (the elect) and He purposely created some with the view of damning them (the damned).

   Ahhhhhh. Now THAT’S Biblical!
   bendictus:
   

   So even before He created them, He knew he was going to damn them.

   Yes.
   
   [SIGN]“What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering** the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:** And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory…”(Romans 9:22-23)[/SIGN]
   bendictus:
   

   He was gong to make them sin so that He can damn them.

   No. They sin of their own accord.
   bendictus:
   

   He is going to punish them fro all eternity for something they cannot help (because He himself made them sin).

   No, He did not make them sin. They made themselves sin. Why do you keep on saying this, when you have already gone on record as saying that men cause themselves to sin?

 

[guanophore]

It is not; in case anyone has forgotten the title of the thread.

Thanks!

I think that might have gotten lost in the sauce!

What has become clear is that only PEPCIS’ perception of it is what is wrong.

 

[JWB152]

If God did not know what each human beings final disposition would be, He would not be God. Good can come out of evil, just look at Judas. Look at a child born out of rape. Our final disposition is the result of our own free will. Jesus said if you love God you will keep His commandments. If you don’t love God… He will reunite you with your sins in hell, because that is what you desire.

God did not predestine before He foreknew, but for those whose merits He foresaw, He predestined their reward.
JWB152

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

You couldn’t be more wrong. Predestination has EVERYTHING to do with being here on earth, because it is our EARTHLY ACTIONS which speak of our HEAVENLY destinations.

Old Testament Israel entering into the Promised Land is a PICTURE of how God enacts salvation. In the OT, it was the salvation of a nation which rejected Him. In the NT, it is the salvation of a world that rejects Him.

But the term itself “pre-destination”, means that even before we were born we have already been pre-destined.

Yes. Some were predestined to salvation.
bendictus:

So therefore our earthly actions were controlled by God.

I’m not sure why you would say that. Nothing I have said could be construed that way.
bendictus:

Those He has pre-destined to damnation will not be given the grace to be good.

I would agree with that statement. He doesn’t cause them to be bad. He just doesn’t give them the grace to change their nature, so they will NATURALLY choose what is bad.

benedictus:

So taking into account all you have said, even our EARTLY ACTIONS have been pre-determined.

As I have said above, nothing I have said could be construed this way.

PEPCIS:

That is why I have been saying over and over again, please bring in free-will into your arguments. We have free-will. It is only when you deny free-will that you come up with your “understanding” of pre-destination.

No, I agree that we have free will. Our wills, however, are extremely limited in what they can choose.

 

[SHW]

God did not predestine before He foreknew, but for those whose merits He foresaw, He predestined their reward.

I agree. “Predestine” is only used in a positive manner as is "foreknew."God does not “know” anyone who is going to be condemned.

This is why Jesus states in Matthew 7:22-23 "Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Romans 8:29 “For** whom He foreknew, He also predestined** to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

1 Peter 1:1-2 “…To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:”

Mark 13:20 “And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.”

Those whom He foreknew, He predestined, and chose them to be the elect. He “elected” them “according to” (as a result of) His “foreknowledge.”

In response to persons who insist that Romans 9 proves that God predestines without consideration for our own free will choices:

Romans 9:10-21 “And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

According to commentary in the Navarre Bible, “Esau I hated: this is a Semitic way of speaking, of a sort often found Scripture. God loves Esau, too, but compared with his preferential love for Jacob, his love for Esau looks like “hate.” Exaggeration is being used to make a point. Our Lord sometimes uses similar language in the Gospel–for example, when he compares the love he is owed with the love a person owes his parents (see MT 10:37…) God loves everything and everyone that he created (see Wis 11:24).” End of commentary.

Wisdom 11:24 “For you love all things that are and loathe nothing that you have made; for what you hated, you would not have fashioned.”

Continuing with Romans 9:14:
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?"

More commentary from the Navarre Bible: “God is not unjust, Paul says, when he distributes his grace unequally among men (v v. 14-18). He has mercy on whomever he chooses without that meaning he is unfair. However, if a person in the exercise of his freedom rejects God’s gifts, God respects that decision. Therefore, when Paul says that God "hardens the heart of whomever he wills” (v.18), this should be read as a typically biblical way of speaking–attributing to God’s action things that he merely permits. A sinner is always responsible for his own hardness of heart.

St. Thomas Aquinas explains this by using a simile: "Although the sun, for its part, enlightens all bodies, if it encounters an obstacle in a body it leaves the body in darkness, as happens to a house whose window shutters are closed. Clearly, the sun is not the cause of the house being darkened, since it does not act of its own accord in failing to light up the interior of the house; the cause of the darkness is the person who closed the shutters. So God chooses not to give [the light of] grace to those who put an obstacle in its way: (Summa theologiae, 1-2, 79, 3).

All we need to remember, then, is that God always offers man the opportunity to change and repent. Hence the psalmist’s call not to close our heart to God’s invitations: “O that today you would hearken to his voice? Harden not your hearts” (Ps 95:7-8)." End of Commentary.

This is such a difficult Scripture passage to understand. I hope this commentary helps.

SHW

 

[Seeking12]

I agree. “Predestine” is only used in a positive manner as is "foreknew."God does not “know” anyone who is going to be condemned. Did God create all things including all men? Did God predestine some to salvation? Can the predestined to heaven refuse God’s predestination? If God created all men and destined some to heaven and the predestined to heaven cannot refuse His will; then did God, by default, predestined the rest to hell? What does logic tell you?

This is why Jesus states in Matthew 7:22-23 "Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Romans 8:29 “For** whom He foreknew, He also predestined** to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

1 Peter 1:1-2 “…To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:”

Mark 13:20 “And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.”

Those whom He foreknew, He predestined, and chose them to be the elect. He “elected” them “according to” (as a result of) His “foreknowledge.”

In response to persons who insist that Romans 9 proves that God predestines without consideration for our own free will choices:

Romans 9:10-21 “And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

According to commentary in the Navarre Bible, “Esau I hated: this is a Semitic way of speaking, of a sort often found Scripture. God loves Esau, too, but compared with his preferential love for Jacob, his love for Esau looks like “hate.” Exaggeration is being used to make a point. Our Lord sometimes uses similar language in the Gospel–for example, when he compares the love he is owed with the love a person owes his parents (see MT 10:37…) God loves everything and everyone that he created (see Wis 11:24).” End of commentary.

Wisdom 11:24 “For you love all things that are and loathe nothing that you have made; for what you hated, you would not have fashioned.”

Continuing with Romans 9:14:
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?"

More commentary from the Navarre Bible: “God is not unjust, Paul says, when he distributes his grace unequally among men (v v. 14-18). He has mercy on whomever he chooses without that meaning he is unfair. However, if a person in the exercise of his freedom rejects God’s gifts, God respects that decision. Therefore, when Paul says that God "hardens the heart of whomever he wills” (v.18), this should be read as a typically biblical way of speaking–attributing to God’s action things that he merely permits. A sinner is always responsible for his own hardness of heart.

St. Thomas Aquinas explains this by using a simile: "Although the sun, for its part, enlightens all bodies, if it encounters an obstacle in a body it leaves the body in darkness, as happens to a house whose window shutters are closed. Clearly, the sun is not the cause of the house being darkened, since it does not act of its own accord in failing to light up the interior of the house; the cause of the darkness is the person who closed the shutters. So God chooses not to give [the light of] grace to those who put an obstacle in its way: (Summa theologiae, 1-2, 79, 3).

All we need to remember, then, is that God always offers man the opportunity to change and repent. Hence the psalmist’s call not to close our heart to God’s invitations: “O that today you would hearken to his voice? Harden not your hearts” (Ps 95:7-8)." End of Commentary.

This is such a difficult Scripture passage to understand. I hope this commentary helps.

SHW

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

I NEVER said that He was not for us. The question (may I remind you?) which Paul said, not me, is a RHETORICAL question. We KNOW that God is for us, therefore, if God is for us, then who, or what, could possibly be against us? Who could have the power to stop the work which God has begun?? Answer: NOBODY!

Yes, but you limit the US. My point here is that the US is more than just the small number of “Christians”. He is for all of us for the simple reason that He created us ALL in love.

I’m sorry, but God’s Word is the final arbiter in this matter. It matters NOT what you think (that “my” god is cruel, or whatever), or what you feel (that “my” god is unrighteous, or wicked). All that matters is what God’s Word says.

It is clear from the context that the “us” is limited. I don’t limit the “us”, God limits it by specifying who this letter is being written to. We can gather a multitude of clues in this chapter alone.

Notice the following clues:

vs. 1 - “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”
vs. 4 - “That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”
vs. 9 - “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit…”
vs. 11 - “But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.”
vs. 12. - “Therefore, brethren…”
vs. 15 - “For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.”
vs. 16-21 - “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.”

But the number of mentions in this chapter alone are more than sufficient to establish that the “us” is us - the saved. It is not “the world”, nor could it ever be. To clinch it, notice in verse 38, Paul says: “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.”

It really would be better if you just re-read the whole chapter again for yourself. But to continue to maintain that Paul is speaking of the whole world places you outside of the normal means of Biblical interpretation into the liberal crowd of those who claim that the Bible has no miracles. I believe better things concerning you, despite your convoluted reasoning below.

benedictus:

I am sure that I am obtuse, even very obtuse with regards a lot of things but not on this one.

Actually, you ARE being obtuse.

 

[PEPCIS]

benedictus:

You are reading this verse too narrowly. It says "to them that love God, those who are called according to His purpose. "

ROFLMBO!!! I’m reading this too narrowly??? Paul rendered it, by the power of the Holy Spirit, as narrowly targetting THOSE WHO LOVE GOD, TO THOSE WHO ARE THE CALLED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE!!

benedictus:

First of all, how do you know that those whom He chose not to be reached by the Gospel has been called according to his purpose as well? You assume that his purpose is what YOU know his purpose to be but that His purpose is way bigger than your knowledge of it. You seem to like to limit God to your own image of Him.

I think that if you pursue this interpretation that you and I are finished our dialogue.

To begin with, concerning these ridiculous objections:

“First of all, how do you know that those whom He chose not to be reached by the Gospel has been called according to his purpose as well?”

• God has not chosen to reach anyone outside of the Gospel. The Bible is clear on this matter. No remote tribe in deepest, darkest Africa will be saved apart from the preaching of the Word.
• God’s purposes are wrapped within His Gospel. It is the complete reason that Christ died on the Cross. You belittle the magnificent work that God accomplished through His Son when you suggest such ridiculous UNBIBLICAL notions.

benedictus:

There are a lot of people who love God but who have not been reached by the Gospel. It is not their fault that they have not heard of Christ.

It is their fault. They live a life which is alien to God BY THEIR OWN CHOICE. You admit that they have free will. This is no different. 90% of the world has already heard the gospel, so you aren’t even talking about the 10% here. You’re just raising objections because you think that the picture that God projects of Himself in His Word is unjust and unrighteous.

[SIGN]19"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" (Romans 9:19-24)[/SIGN]
benedictusl:

St Paul also wrote that God has written His law into all our hearts. So his purpose in one degree or another is made known to all man.

Exactly. They are WITHOUT EXCUSE.

[SIGN]"18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (Romans 1:18-21)[/SIGN]"

benedictus:

Paul did not have US in mind when he wrote that.

Maybe not, but the Holy Spirit did.

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

Two things:

1. 
   *]These things which Paul makes mention of (“foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification, glorification”) are the continuing and unfolding process of salvation.
   *]It is TOTALLY a work of God. We can’t “foreknow”, and we can’t “predestinate”, and we can’t “call” and we can’t "justify, and we can’t “glorify”. Everyone of those works is a function of God.

1. 
   

   That is why Paul could say,
   “For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.”

   And I never ever said anything contrary to these points. I totally agree.

1. 
   Actually, you don’t agree. Nearly every post you make attempts to refute God’s Word directly. In this, you have continually asserted that man can be saved apart from the Gospel of Christ, despite Jesus’ own assertion that [SIGN]“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father except through the Son.”[/SIGN] And, [SIGN]“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.”[/SIGN]
   
   Despite the Bible, you have come up with your own version of predestination, justification, and sanctification - all contrary to Scripture.
   
   
   benedictus:
   

   My issue with you has always been about your understanding of predestination and your logic. You have always come back with Bible verses but have never once come up with an argument that addressed the logic of my conclusions.

   I don’t need to come back to answer your conclusions, because they do not address the Bible. If you want to entertain unbiblical notions, I will not be dragged into such discussions. They are fruitless.
   
   
   benedictus:
   

   When I said that your description of god painted a psychopath for a god you have never challenged that conclusion.

   And I won’t challenge it. As I said, I will not entertain notions which try to belittle who God is. I have not painted any picture of God. Contrary to your assertions, I am simply putting on display the picture of who the Bible says God is. You don’t like it because it doesn’t measure up to what you expect and want out of God. You are literally throwing God’s Word into the fire, just like King Jehudi.
   
   
   benedictus:
   

   You know why I think that is? It is because based on your statements, you cannot arrive at any other conclusion.

   The Bible presents no other picture.
   
   
   benedictus:
   

   You need to start looking at God from the point of His love.

   And that is EXACTLY your problem. You don’t like how God presents Himself as the supreme Judge of the universe, and so you belittle and reject all those verses which talk of Him doing His job as that Judge, and you emphasize solely His love and His mercy. You have a lop-sided and warped view of God.
   
   
   benedictus:
   

   You put way TOO MUCH emphasis on his justice, wrath etc and you forget that God is love.

   From your perspective, I suppose that might be true. If I were to view God ONLY AS A GOD OF LOVE, I would not understand why God has to judge the world and sentence those evil doers to eternity in hell. The Bible says that HE CASTS THEM THERE. People may choose their course in this life, but it is God who puts them in hell.

 

[Seeking12]

God has not chosen to reach anyone outside of the Gospel. The Bible is clear on this matter.

**I believe this is the “can the bushman be saved”? Romans 1:18-24 gives an answer to this. People can be saved based on what God has revealed to them.

Romans 1:18-24 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling F15 creatures. **

 

[SHW]

Original Post by Seeking12: "Did God create all things including all men? Did God predestine some to salvation?

God created all things, including all men. God predestined some to salvation.

by Seeking12"Can the predestined to heaven refuse God’s predestination?

The only persons predestined to heaven are those persons who God foreknew were going to be saved at the end of their lives. God saw every action and event of their lives including their deaths before He created the world. Those whom He foresaw by His foreknowledge who “feared Him and worked righteousness” and “endured to the end” of their lives doing these things; these alone did He predestine to heaven. Predestine is only used in a positive sense in Scripture.

Romans 8:29 “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

Acts 10:35 “But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.”

Hebrews 10:36 “For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:”

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him (by either words or actions/sins), He also will deny us.

Mark 13:13 “And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.”

God only “foreknew” and only “knows” persons who obey Him and work righteousness just as Jesus on Judgment Day claims that “He never knew” those who practiced lawlessness (committed mortal sins and never repented).

Matthew 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”

Matthew 13:40-42 “Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and** they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire**. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

God desires that we be saved but our own sins condemn us to hell.

by Seeking12 “Can the predestined to heaven refuse God’s predestination?”

The “predestined to heaven” want to be there whole-heartedly and they prove their faith by “fearing God and working righteousness” while they are actually alive on earth. However, God foresaw them doing these things before He created them and this is why He predestined them to heaven in the first place. He judged all of us impartially according to our own free will choices before we were even born. He knows if we are saved already because He knows all things (He is omniscient), but we will not know with absolute assurance if we are saved until we die because we do not know our future actions.

by Seeking12If God created all men and destined some to heaven and the predestined to heaven cannot refuse His will; then did God, by default, predestined the rest to hell?

God cannot “predestine” anyone to hell. People are “condemned” to hell because God judged them according to their “own” works.

1 Peter 1:16-17 “because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.” 17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;”

Colossians 3:23-25 “And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not to men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for you serve the Lord Christ. 25 But he who does wrong will be repaid for what he has done, and there is no partiality.”

God wants every man to be saved and provided a way via Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of** God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth**. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all…”

2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”

Our own sins condemn us.

Titus 3:10-11 “Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.”

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power”

God, before the foundation of the world, foresaw every free will action of every person using His foreknowledge before they were even created. Those persons whom He foresaw that would fear Him and work righteousness until their deaths, He predestined those persons to heaven.

Those persons whom He did not see with His foreknowledge fearing Him and working righteousness, these persons are condemned to hell, but it is because of their own free will actions.

SHW

 

[fbl9]

It is clear from the context that the “us” is limited. I don’t limit the “us”, God limits it by specifying who this letter is being written to. We can gather a multitude of clues in this chapter alone.

and only it applies not to those whom to the letter was written…we weren’t present so the contents aren’t written to us or of us only to those who the letter was intended for.

 

[Seeking12]

God created all things, including all men. God predestined some to salvation.
The only persons predestined to heaven are those persons who God foreknew were going to be saved at the end of their lives. God saw every action and event of their lives including their deaths before He created the world.

**Thanks for taking your valuable time to address the questions; very thoughtful.

Occasionally someone will suggest that God’s election is based on His foreknowledge of certain events. This argument suggests that God simply looks into the future to see who will believe, and He chooses those whom He sees choosing Him. Notice that 1 Peter 1:2 says the elect are chosen “according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,” and Romans 8:29 says, “whom He foreknew, He also predestined.” And if divine foreknowledge simply means God’s knowledge of what will happen in advance, then these arguments may appear to have some weight behind them.

But that is not the biblical meaning of “foreknowledge.” When the Bible speaks of God’s foreknowledge, it refers to God’s establishment of a “love relationship” with that person. The word know, in both the Old and New Testament, refers to much more than mere cognitive knowledge of a person. Such passages as Hosea 13:4-5; Amos 3:2 (KJV); and Romans 11:2 clearly indicate this. For example, 1 Peter 1:20 says Christ was “foreknown before the foundation of the world.” Surely this means more than that God the Father looked into the future to behold Christ! It means He had an eternal, loving relationship with Him. The same is true of the elect, whom we are told God “foreknew” (Romans 8:29). That means He knew them–he loved them–before the foundation of the world.

If God’s choice of the elect is unconditional, does this rule out human responsibility? Paul asks and answers that very question in Romans 9:19-20. He says God’s choice of the elect is an act of mercy. Left to themselves, even the elect would persist in sin and be lost, because they are taken from the same fallen lump of clay as the rest of humanity. God alone is responsible for their salvation, but that does not eradicate the responsibility of those who persist in sin and are lost–because they do it willfully, and not under compulsion. They are responsible for their sin, not God.

The Bible affirms human responsibility right alongside the doctrine of divine sovereignty. This is why it is hard for our finite minds to understand. Moreover, the offer of mercy in the gospel is extended to all alike. Isaiah 55:1 and Revelation 22:17 call “whosoever will” to be saved. Isaiah 45:22 and Acts 17:30 command all men to turn to God, repent and be saved. First Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 tell us that God is not willing that any should perish, but desires that all should be saved. Finally, the Lord Jesus said that, “the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out” (John 6:37).

In summary, we can say that God has had a special love relationship with the elect from all eternity, and on the basis of that love relationship chosen them for salvation. The ultimate question of why God chose some for salvation and left others in their sinful state is one that we, with our finite knowledge, cannot answer. We do know that God’s attributes always are in perfect harmony with each other, so that God’s sovereignty will always operate in perfect harmony with His attributes.**

 

[fbl9]

GOD JUDGES ALL WITH JUSTICE AND NOT UNFAIRLY…in this picture being presented there would be no need for JUSTICE if a man was made to be a vessel for ordinary purposes unto his destruction why judge?He has before hand made decsion to make this man for destruction.

I want to live without sin yet bc of the way i am i can not,i want to be a shining beacon for God but bc of my human nature i can not.So according to the predestinational view i should not desire these things but wallow in sin bc accordingly i am one of those who is not predestined to heaven…it is this very lie told by men that allowed myself to wallow in sin bc since i wasn’t a vessel of honor i wasn’t meant for heaven,so why bother…

Why bother even telling people about Jesus,if they are going to heaven there isn’t anything one can do to change that…even sharing the truth with them…

 

[fbl9]

Why bother even telling people about Jesus,if they are going to heaven there isn’t anything one can do to change that…even sharing the truth with them…

Those who support the lie of men about predestinaiton answer this…One is predestined to heaven but is not told about Jesus,how can they enter heaven?

 

[Seeking12]

GOD JUDGES ALL WITH JUSTICE AND NOT UNFAIRLY…in this picture being presented there would be no need for JUSTICE if a man was made to be a vessel for ordinary purposes unto his destruction why judge?He has before hand made decsion to make this man for destruction.

I want to live without sin yet bc of the way i am i can not,i want to be a shining beacon for God but bc of my human nature i can not.So according to the predestinational view i should not desire these things but wallow in sin bc accordingly i am one of those who is not predestined to heaven…it is this very lie told by men that allowed myself to wallow in sin bc since i wasn’t a vessel of honor i wasn’t meant for heaven,so why bother…

Why bother even telling people about Jesus,if they are going to heaven there isn’t anything one can do to change that…even sharing the truth with them…

**Come to Jesus friend. Ask Him into your heart and pray He will save you, repent of your sins before God, then follow Christ; treating Christ as Lord over your life and you will be saved!

We do not know who the “elect” are do we? Did God command us to share the gospel? Does God use human instruments to aid in reaching the lost?**

 

[fbl9]

**Come to Jesus friend. Ask Him into your heart and pray He will save you, repent of your sins before God, then follow Christ; treating Christ as Lord over your life and you will be saved!

We do not know who the “elect” are do we? Did God command us to share the gospel? Does God use human instruments to aid in reaching the lost?**

To late He has already came to me yesterday.
What would the point of teaching others be if they are already detremined by God as to be heaven bound regardless…Not one person is lost in the predestination scheme ,how can that which is already detremined by God be lost.