Why is Social Justice Less Important Than...

[Brad]

katherine2:

Lisa –

I don’t accept the theory that when a worker is faced with injustice, the Catholic response is to walk away from the job. Here is what Pope JohnPaul 2 says"

I agree with the Pope - see, when the Pope tallks, he doesn’t just speak to the United States of America. You think China’s employees could use some union representation - sure they could!

But we don’t LIVE in China. Most of the U.S. unions are contrary to what the Pope considers beneficial - according to the Church’s SOCIAL ENCYCLICALs, these unions are to benefit both the employee and the empolyers. The vast majority of U.S. unions benefit the union and a few employees at the expense of taxpayers, other employees, and companies, resulting in:

Higher taxes and higher prices for all Americans. It results in greater in-debtedness as people pay extraordinarily high prices for houses and cars that they really cannot afford - these prices (especially for cars) are outrageous and unfair and are driven up by unions. The only reason people can buy them is they can take out loans. This causes an increase in insecurity of the American consumer always waiting for the next shoe to drop - causing stress on the family and many more divorces and children without mothers and fathers.

Most of the unions in America today are anti-family and pro union.

They were not always this way, but they are today - this is 2004.

Now, if you want to talk about the desparate neeed for employee representation in China or Pakistan then go right ahead - the Pope is right on!

 

[Brad]

vern humphrey:

From the USCCB voter’s guide:

“3. How will we address the tragic fact that more than 30,000 children die every day as a result of hunger, international debt and lack of development around the world?”

Hmmmm – how does “international debt” CAUSE children to die?

Exactly. International debt sometimes helps countries. The more in-debt they become, the less they can pay. Then countries, like the US, end up giving them the interest payments so they won’t default and go under completely. This allows them to continue paying for food - if they desired.

Most often, evil dictators in power over the poor don’t let the food or money get to the poor people - that causes world hunger.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Brad:

Exactly. International debt sometimes helps countries. The more in-debt they become, the less they can pay. Then countries, like the US, end up giving them the interest payments so they won’t default and go under completely. This allows them to continue paying for food - if they desired.

Most often, evil dictators in power over the poor don’t let the food or money get to the poor people - that causes world hunger.

Bingo!

Hunger, internatioal debt, and lack of development are all caused by the same thing – brutal, corrupt governments which steal the money and leave the people no better off.

A very little clear thinking would re-word that question as, “How can we overthrow, or modify brutal, corrupt governments which oppress the people and steal their substinence?”

 

[Brad]

vern humphrey:

Bingo!

Hunger, internatioal debt, and lack of development are all caused by the same thing – brutal, corrupt governments which steal the money and leave the people no better off.

A very little clear thinking would re-word that question as, “How can we overthrow, or modify brutal, corrupt governments which oppress the people and steal their substinence?”

Oh - can’t reword it like that. It might suggest support for politicians that favor such policies. These same politicians frequently are pro-life and the femminists that work at the USCCB and do most of it’s social teachings writing would have none of that.

 

[Trelow]

Brad:

I agree with the Pope - see, when the Pope tallks, he doesn’t just speak to the United States of America. You think China’s employees could use some union representation - sure they could!

But we don’t LIVE in China. Most of the U.S. unions are contrary to what the Pope considers beneficial - according to the Church’s SOCIAL ENCYCLICALs, these unions are to benefit both the employee and the empolyers. The vast majority of U.S. unions benefit the union and a few employees at the expense of taxpayers, other employees, and companies, resulting in:

Higher taxes and higher prices for all Americans. It results in greater in-debtedness as people pay extraordinarily high prices for houses and cars that they really cannot afford - these prices (especially for cars) are outrageous and unfair and are driven up by unions. The only reason people can buy them is they can take out loans. This causes an increase in insecurity of the American consumer always waiting for the next shoe to drop - causing stress on the family and many more divorces and children without mothers and fathers.

Most of the unions in America today are anti-family and pro union.

They were not always this way, but they are today - this is 2004.

Now, if you want to talk about the desparate neeed for employee representation in China or Pakistan then go right ahead - the Pope is right on!

Amen.

Unions in the US are the oppressors. Federal and state laws go out of their way to protect employees.

 

[Trelow]

What was it that Dr. Guarendi said the other day? Hmmm…
Oh yea, something along the lines as “logic and reason will change very few peoples minds.”

 

[Brad]

Trelow:

What was it that Dr. Guarendi said the other day? Hmmm…
Oh yea, something along the lines as “logic and reason will change very few peoples minds.”

Not in the short term but usually in the long term. An individual person is the only one that can decide to change his/her mind.

 

[katherine2]

Brad:

In addition, I’ll say again - the Church has repeatedly condemned Socialism in it’s “social encyclicals”. Over and over again this ideology has been condemned.

Sure it has. But falsely calling Catholic Social Teachings, Socialism, doesn’t make Catholic Social Teachings unjust.

 

[katherine2]

Lisa N:

Employees are “capital” in the service sector.
Lisa N

The Pope says this theory is false and dehumanizing. I stand with the Pope.

 

[katherine2]

Most of the unions in America today are anti-family and pro union.

Most of the corporate bosses in America today are anti-family and pro-greed.

 

[Brad]

katherine2:

Sure it has. But falsely calling Catholic Social Teachings, Socialism, doesn’t make Catholic Social Teachings unjust.

I’m not calling Catholic social teachings Socialism as you incorrectly charge. I’m suggesting that many unions and Democrats in the United States have ideals that are extremely close, if not the same, as Socialism.

 

[Brad]

katherine2:

Most of the corporate bosses in America today are anti-family and pro-greed.

Not most of them. Some of them. In any event this does not make Capitalism bad - it makes isolated abuses of a good system bad.

Also, assuming that, because someone has a lot of money they are greedy and anti-family is not fair to many people in this country, including many immigrants, that started with nothing and made quite a bit of a life for themselves. In fact, the Renum Novarum encyclical says this is a great system - where the average citizen can become an owner through hard work, ingenuity, and application of skills. (I wish I was defending myself on this one but I’m not in the “lot of money” category)

Sometimes, those that are poor are greedy. You can see this in how frequently people that win the lotter end up bankrupt within a few years because they spent it all - they wanted the stuff.

Sometimes the middle class is greedy - they just have to have the new car or the bigger house so they go into great debt to get it - even though they can’t really afford it - this is unbiblical as well.

 

[Brendan]

katherine2:

Most of the corporate bosses in America today are anti-family and pro-greed.

And how does that make them different from most of today’s workers, blue or white collar?

 

[katherine2]

Brad:

I’m not calling Catholic social teachings Socialism as you incorrectly charge. I’m suggesting that many unions and Democrats in the United States have ideals that are extremely close, if not the same, as Socialism.

That’s your characterization of those ideals. On issues of economic justice, there is not a whole lot of daylight between what the AFL-CIO states to be its ideals and the what our Catholic bishops state to be their ideals.

 

[katherine2]

Brad:

Not most of them. Some of them. In any event this does not make Capitalism bad - it makes isolated abuses of a good system bad.

Well, your gentle admission that some of the bosses are greed yand anti-family while in your own words “most” unions are anti-family doesn’t cut it.

Also, assuming that, because someone has a lot of money they are greedy and anti-family is not fair to many people in this country,…

Sometimes, those that are poor are greedy…

Sometimes the middle class is greedy - …

I never denied sometimes these things are true. I objected to your use of the word “most”.

I beleive in the doctrine of orginal sin. I don’t believe in your premise that it is present to a greater degree in trade unionists than it is in bosses.

 

[Brad]

katherine2:

Well, your gentle admission that some of the bosses are greed yand anti-family while in your own words “most” unions are anti-family doesn’t cut it.

It is the truth. Doesn’t matter if I “cut it” with Katherine.

katherine2:

I beleive in the doctrine of orginal sin. I don’t believe in your premise that it is present to a greater degree in trade unionists than it is in bosses.

I think you are confusing an organization with individual people. Individual people in unions are not necessarily sinful. A union as an organization cannot be sinful. Neither can a corporation. However, I still maintain that most unions (not people in unions) in the U.S. espouse in practice and ideas concepts that are very close to Socialism - not all of its ideas - but many of them - and they further compound the problem by using an us versus them mentality, which the Church says a union is never to do.

 

[Lisa_N]

katherine2:

The Pope says this theory is false and dehumanizing. I stand with the Pope.

Oh fercryinoutloud Katherine. Do you EVER read something in context? In calling employees “capital” (NOTICE THE QUOTE MARKS THIS IS A METAPHOR IS THAT CLEAR???) I was equating them with the most VALUED AND IMPORTANT elements of a service business.

This is NOT an attempt to dehumanize them but to point out that there is NO greater asset to a service business than good employees. And good employees are treated well by their employers because they are such a valuable resource. A successful employer no more abuses his employees than a manufacturing boss would let valuable equipment rust.

I guess I give up. A discussion with you is like hitting my head against a wall.

Lisa N

 

[Penny_Plain]

Penny Plain:

I liked Walker Percy, but there was a lot of stuff I didn’t get. That’s the price you pay for being a foreigner, I guess, but I felt like there was so much going on under the surface. I also enjoyed Robert Penn Warren’s book about Governor Willie Stark that I can rember everthing about but the name of it.

Man is born in sin and perishes in corruption. He passes from the stink of the diaper to the stench of the shroud.

The name of the book is…

ARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!

The name of the book is “All the King’s Men.”

Because I know people were wondering.

 

[katherine2]

Lisa N:

.
This is NOT an attempt to dehumanize them but to point out that there is NO greater asset to a service business than good employees. And good employees are treated well by their employers because they are such a valuable resource. A successful employer no more abuses his employees than a manufacturing boss would let valuable equipment rust.
.
Lisa N

So the laws of nature prevent an employer from taking advantage of a worker and therefore no social system of protection is needed?

Maybe you can dress that up philosophically but humna history has proven that false. Abuse happens.

It would be about the same as someone saying no mother has anything more valuable1 than her child. Therefore, we don’t need laws against abortion.

 

[katherine2]

I still maintain that most unions (not people in unions) in the U.S. espouse in practice and ideas concepts that are very close to Socialism

And I would maintain if your ever listed those ideas and concepts, most of them would either be false or ideas and concepts espoused by the Catholic Church.