Why is sperm donation legal?

[Rozellelily]

First, this is very simplistic and not true.

I was referring specifically to single woman and lesbian women because there is a lot of this in my country.
I should have made it clearer.

Couples facing infertility are hurting. When medicine offers them an option

I feel sympathy for them but people are hurting for all sorts of reasons. According to that sort of logic, we would then also have to say it’s ok for men that can’t get a gf/wife to be able to see the prostitute because they are hurting. It’s not a greatest analogy, but I think you see what I mean.

here is a market for sperm and egg donors

The fact that we even use the word market in the same sentence as sperm/egg really says where society has gone.

the man doesn’t just go over to the woman’s house for thirty minutes…

I am referring to “private procedures” like the guy in the article.
Quote:

"Since then, other recipients have come to the family home to access Alan’s sperm."

******"Alan describes his donating as a hobby but it is one that has taken him away from other hobbies such as 3D printing.

“I look at all the stuff I’ve made in the garage and that’s when I decided I’ve got to put an end to it."

Tough life, whether to do the sperm hobby or 3d hobby .
Just shows how flippantly people take parenting and these things nowadays.

the future docs earned some extra money.

Now I have heard it all. Just shows how much this is being normalised.

 

[JMMJ]

This is going to sound harsh and maybe too harsh, but maybe that is the problem of people today.
People have become selfish where they think “I want a perfect baby, and I want it in xyz timing

I don’t think that is the problem. I know several couples who have adopted, and every one of them have had issues that were above their skillset and natural calling. More than one regrets the adoption.
Namelyy, the kids were born to drug and/or alcohol addicted mothers and the extent of it wasn’t disclosed prior to the adoption.

These kids aren’t the same as children with genetic disabilities. Their needs are in a whole different realm from that. Unfortunately, many people are not equipped to manage the care required.

I don’t think it is unreasonable for a couple to determine they aren’t open to adopting children with these issues.

 

[Rozellelily]

and the extent of it wasn’t disclosed prior to the adoption.

This then was negligence on the part of the adoption agency. They should have to give full disclosure of all the child’s issue. Perhaps the fault is even more with doctors than with the agencies, because I guess agencies just go off doctors reports?
And doctors themselves, ironically, often do not know the full extend of cognitive issues in children of alcoholic/addict mothers. Many general practitioners and even Psychiatrists do not understand this area. They view it as a specialty of Neuropsychiatrist and there are comparatively not many of these around.

 

[JMMJ]

Many general practitioners and even Psychiatrists do not understand this area. They view it as a specialty of Neuropsychiatrist and there are comparatively not many of these around.

Exactly why so many people (reasonably) aren’t willing to take such a risk.

 

[TheLittleLady]

it’s really hard to adopt them due to legal issues and the foster care system

This has not been the experience for my family, friends, and co-parishioners who have done foster to adopt. Again, seems to be one of those things that happen in a small number of cases that has grown to mythic proportions. There are hundreds of kids in your county, in my county, where the parental rights have been terminated, the kids cannot be “sent back to live with abusive family” and the adoption process can begin with a home study.

My sibling takes in the foster kids who are considered unplacable. They have found it rewarding and amazing, they have seen kids reunited with family and they have seen parents lose their rights so the kids go to a forever family.

 

[Rozellelily]

Your sibling is very kind and selfless. :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

 

[TheLittleLady]

The good news is that the foster system has kids already in counseling, if need be they have gone to a home like my siblings to work on issues, the modern foster world is nothing like it was decades ago.

 

[BornInMarch]

Studies carried out and funded by organisations with a bias leaning against this value.

Nope. Studies carried out by neutral organizations which are only interested in the facts. Dismissing everyone who disagrees with you as biased is not conducive to a healthy debate. It signals that you are unwilling to accept any evidence that goes against the conclusion you already reached.

And if success is defined by a lack of mental illness, emotional stability, and able to hold down a career, then they are right.

Those are very important things for a person to have, and are empirically testable.

But if you define success also on keeping to good values, then that’s a different story.

That depends how you define “good values”, because you could ask a hundred different people and get a hundred different answers. And if you define it by what your religion teaches, all I can say is that the United States is a country with separation of church and state and thus has no business trying to push it’s citizens to adopt traditional Christian values. I wouldn’t want to be forced to live by Hindu or Muslim values, so I’d find it selfish to force non-Christians to live by Christian values.

I would also bet money that if the Catholic Church funded similar studies, and included traditional values as one of the success determinants, the results would contradict the findings that you mentioned.

Maybe, or maybe not, but either way I’d be hesitant to trust a survey or experiment by a group that wants the results to go one way or another. If a Jehovah’s Witness group was asked to survey people who got blood transfusions to see if they reported suffering health problems from it then I’m sure they’d “find” that it tends to, just like if you asked a Hindu group to survey people who ate beef to see if they have worse health.

And the ironic thing is that even some people who were raised by same-sex couples have themselves stated that they believe in traditional marriage or children’s right to know their biological parent.

A few have, true, but when I read such accounts their criticisms of their parents are seldom things that opposite-sex parents are immune to or less susceptible to.

And I think they naturally know more that any biased researcher knows…

Not really. Apart from the fact that one case-study is woefully insufficient to determine a rule or general trend, someone who is a subject within the study will find it harder to be objective due to their own emotional investment.

 

[HeDa]

I don’t have the time to read all posts but can recommend Aldous Huxley´s book Brave New World. (It was written in the 1930s so some words that are used are not politically correct according to 2020.)

Brave New World - Wikipedia

 

[Wesrock]

These methods are immoral.

This isn’t a justification at all, because it does not make immoral means right. But I will add that the cost of adoption is often prohibitively expensive. More expensive than delivering a baby. It’d be nice to see these expenses offset for adoptive parents.

 

[MasterXploder7]

I wouldn’t think this would be a “cheap and easy” option honestly. Such an odd disconnect between Catholic notions of procreation and the scientific field these days.

 

[Anicette]

More than one regrets the adoption.

It’s very sad that they think that, and very annoying that they make their feeling public, and for the children… I don’t speak of it.

Yes, I think there is a problem with adoption in the US. It is the develop country where there is the more children abandonned. And worst, worst, where adoptive parents abandon the most their adoptive children. something that is not even possible in many others countries. we can no more abandon adopted kids than biological kids, the filiation is identical.

One of the problem is that some adoptions may have done too quickly, without enough preparation 'including with psychologists. And that children after need a following by public services and child protection services, with psychologists, educatorsn when needed. Including to answers the troubles, needs and questions of parents. It does not seems to be done. Sad.

I have several friends who were adopted. They were from strongs Catholics families, with a priliedge situation. Many were very fine as adults. But some struggles more than others. One of them were homeless for a time for eg. He was adopted later after having lived on the streets. Another make wrongs choice (in love) and were homesless too. Now she is a mother of three abandonned by the father, without a job and past abortion.

 

[Anicette]

The good news is that the foster system has kids already in counseling, if need be they have gone to a home like my siblings to work on issues, the modern foster world is nothing like it was decades ago.

I am happy that it is improoved. But the many documentaries we see on aboard show there is a lot of problem with foster care. Including children abandonned by adoptive parents, and re adopted privately (something impossible in most countries) or more often let in the foster care, shortage of good foster care parents…

It’s never good anyway. I just pray that the state had decrease abusive removal of the custody of children. It’s happen in all places, including mine, not always for the best reasons.

 

[Rozellelily]

Dismissing everyone who disagrees with you as biased is not conducive to a healthy debate. It signals that you are unwilling to accept any evidence that goes against the conclusion you already reached.

I agree with this. To dismiss would just make me as biased as them. But I am not talking about dismissing, I am talking about how to interpret studies. You say these studies are done by neutral researchers but how can you prove that?
It is not a secret that most Universities now lean towards support of pro gay marriage and relationships.
I am not suggesting that they have to believe the other way, but how can you say that they are neutral without providing evidence of that?

Those are very important things for a person to have, and are empirically testable.

Of course. I am not suggesting that they aren’t but some people also believe that values are just as important. It isn’t an either/or situation or mutually exclusive.

Maybe, or maybe not, but either way I’d be hesitant to trust a survey or experiment by a group that wants the results to go one way or another.

But then you are doing exactly the same thing as you are telling me not to do. So basically, you would not accept any study results that were funded by Christian organisation, or Muslim ones, or done by Turkish researchers etc…
If you perceive the bias as one way you say it is bad, but if the bias could be the other way you say it doesn’t exist??
A university setting does not automatically equate to no biases being held. It would be great if there were no biases either way in Uni’s but this isn’t realistic. How can you “prove” that the researchers that you cite also do not have any conscious or unconscious bias of their own?

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/n...s/news-story/aff2200d467f0db675d5966207621d27

 

[Rozellelily]

quote=“BornInMarch, post:48, topic:637329”]
you could ask a hundred different people and get a hundred different answers…and if you define it by religion…

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I wouldn’t want to be forced to live by Hindu or Muslim values

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[/quote]***

Muslim’s and Hindu’s also believe in traditional marriage and children being raised by a mother and father. This isn’t an exclusively Christian value but is shared amongst religions. And please keep in mind that the USA being a country of separation of Church and state is not the case for every country. I do not come from USA. Why Americans presume that everyone comes from America?
There are users on CAF from Eastern Europe, Middle East, Africa, Asian countries etc and not just USA.
Some USA people think the whole world has to be like them.

If you live in Muslim countries, everyone -including Christians- will be required to respect that countries customs.

For example- Turkey, (predominantly Muslim country), “you nor I” will be allowed to have same-sex marriage, and semen/egg donation is illegal.

If I go to Saudi Arabia, (Muslim) I am not a Muslim but I will be “forced” to comply with the religious customs of not eating/drinking in public during Ramadan. I might like to kiss in public but I won’t do it there out of respect that they perceive it as indecency, etc…

If you live in Poland (Christian) “you nor I” will be allowed to have same-sex marriage or raise children from IVF. In Poland single women or same-sex couples are not allowed to undergo IVF.

So, see not every country is America and American values. If go to Muslim or Christian country, will be “forced” to live by their values.

 

[Rozellelily]

@borninmarch

[quote=“BornInMarch, post:48, topic:637329”]
Not really. Apart from the fact that one case-study is woefully insufficient to determine a rule or general trend, someone who is a subject within the study will find it harder to be objective due to their own emotional investment.

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[/quote]***

I can’t agree with you there. I would say the same thing even if I agreed with IVF and same-sex raising children. It is precisely human emotions that make things mean anything, and they can’t be dismissed so readily and life reduced to a cold scientific process in the lab.
A child living in this situation will always know more than a distanced researcher who observed a situation as an outsider for a few weeks or months (if that).
To use an analogy, this is like saying that a doctor knows more about a patients symptom state than a patient.
And sadly, there are people who think like this. A patient can say they had a fall yesterday and had profuse nose bleeding, and some arrogant doctors can say “no you didn’t, I know what a broken nose looks like and I say your fall never happened”!
Iow, scientific process should work for humans, not take on a life of its own where subjective human experience is pushed out or dismissed.

And you talk like as if researchers are some pure and cold objective “humanoids” dropped from space, with no personal emotions or biases of their own. In truth though, people only go into this research field when they themselves have some invested emotion of their own into it (either way). Most other people could not be bothered.

Whether outright conflicts of interest, or just personal biases, all this has been proven to sometimes exist in scientific studies.

Bias in research - Charles Perkins Centre

And I don’t think the woman in the article was criticising the women who raised her as being bad parents, or being unloving. What she was saying is that she always felt something was missing. I.e., the father figure.

 

[Rozellelily]

I feel sorry for what the children must feel to be returned like that.
A child is not a puppy and the child cannot just be tried on and tested to see if “fits well into the family”.
An adopted child must be for life and I hope America stops the return of children (unless they are being abused).

I read before about this American couple “the Stauffers” famous on YouTube. The mother talked about how she “rehomed” her adopted son from China who had Autism. She didn’t like that the child didn’t instantly bond to her.
I understand it is not easy when a child has autism, but I hate the term “rehomed” to be used for children.

 

[Anicette]

Yes, rehome a child is something who means that a family choose to separate herself from her adoptive child and have him privately adopt another time by another family.

For the rest of the world, it is inconceivable. We cannot legally get a child out of our famaily and filiation more than your legitimate child. It means that a legitimate and an adoptive child soes not have the same status. It’s no less than child abuse- as if he was an object or a slave.

The mother talked about how she “rehomed” her adopted son from China who had Autism. She didn’t like that the child didn’t instantly bond to her.

Seriousely who are those adoptive people who think a child who is already big will instantly bound up with strangers? And more a child with a foreign language, a foerign culture, who already had know only the orphanage or have had a family who abandon him? And more with autism? If this is the true reason, it was wrong to let this family adopted this child. The professional how allowed the adoption seriousely failed in their dissernment and accompaniement of the couple both before and after the adoption.

 

[FeminaBellator]

I am one of those stories. A commercial DNA test led me to the truth that I’m donor conceived. My parents used an anonymous sperm donor and took that secret to their graves.

 

[FeminaBellator]

It is an unregulated market here in the US. Donors lie. Clinics lie. Doctors lie. Since learning I’m donor conceived, I’ve learned a lot about the industry. It’s almost untouchable because who doesn’t want to see a person or persons become parents?