why is sunday instead of saturday the sabboth?

[Patrick_Murebil]

LOL, I don’t have the right clothes for a “rabbi,” but you did use lowercase to spell it, so maybe that was not meaning a literal Rabbi?

To me, the Genesis verses we are discussing pose this serious question about “without form and void” for several reasons.

1/ Regardless of the nature of “without form and void,” it is recognized that God started with a “shell” if you will, and made something beautiful - perfect. This fact recognizes the Bible concept how that the plan of salvation was in existence since “before the foundation of the world.”

Take me for a personal example. I came off the streets and out of the world of drugs and violence. I was a mere shell of what God’s ideal for me would be; yet, God has found a way to take me as I am; “without form and void” and make me into something better. Am I “perfect?” LOL, I am sure that some of my Catholic friends, (and even Adventist friends) will be able to answer that question “efficiently;” but I would add that everytime something becomes apparent that does not belong in my heart, or in my life - the Creation story speaks anew to my heart a special endtime message: “Begin again with Me.”

I think God started out with a perfect “without form and void.” It wasn’t like anything we would see as in say “after the fall.” But it was a shell, and God used it as the foundation upon which to build His planet Earth, and so that we could later see and experience the truth:

Yes, I like the point you make. It ties in my view of the incompleteness of the earth when it was without form and void. God brings order out of chaos, beauty out of darkness. He does the same with us as we enter into the salvation relationship with Him. Behold we are new creatures…and that can only be a result of the work of new creation that God works in us.

I understand from where you came. Praise God for where you are now and where you are going! We walk in the Light, but easily we can leave the light and walk (or stumble) in the darkness which is our seperation from God. Jesus is the Light that leads us out of darkness and into the new creation, just as in the beginning God brought a new creation out of the darkness!!

Good point 101…or is that rabbi 101…or is that rabbi crusty Oh my, look, we just might be on the road to becoming “buds”

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I absolutely agree with everything you have said.

I think maybe I didn’t explain my thoughts very well.

Far be it for me to criticize Sacred Scripture and that was not what I meant. What I was trying to say is 'there are texts intended to be taken literally and texts which explain things to profound for human understanding so analogies are used.

I think the part of Genesis which describes Creation and the fall are rather like that. Something happened we know for sure else we would not be here but exactly what is too profound for our level of understanding. What we do know is that the primary biological state is famale from which come male not the other way around.

If for example a male loses the testosterone supply, he becomes more effeminate and develop breasts but if the female loses her female hormone she remains female. So it is testosterone which keeps the male state from female state. Therefore, by definition ‘as I see it’, male cannot be primary. But I may be wrong!

That does not detract one iota from the teachings of the Lord which I believe and accept 100% and indeed all of the New Testamant and most of the Old Testament.

In addition to reading, I think the Lord wanted us to ‘think and meditate’ rather than just take what is written without too much thought about it. Deeper thinking leads to deeper understanding which in my experience leads to greater conversion.

God bless you too

Blessings and peace

Thank you for the clarification above! I agree that some things may be too profound for us to understand, and that meditation and contemplation and prayer and faith are necessary in those situations.

As for the “man coming from woman” concept…I understand what you are saying, but I have never really thought about that, nor do I have the biological insight to agree that you are correct…and I may be wrong.

I tend to view creation as man first, woman from man…but then I’m old fashioned. Regardless of the order, I do agree that the lessons to learn from the creation story go much deeper that what is written.

May I ask you what you “learn” from the woman first concept?

Thanks!

God bless all!!!

 

[Protestant101]

Good point 101…or is that rabbi 101…or is that rabbi crusty Oh my, look, we just might be on the road to becoming “buds”

God bless all!!!

Well, certainly, friendship is always welcome.

I find myself wondering though - what point you are leading up to here with the discussion on genesis, in this topic about the Sabbath.

Actually, I don’t really wonder. I think I know.

In another thread you make the point how that in the creation accounts of when each day was made by God, that the phrase: “and the evening and the morning were the _____ day;” was not stated in the account of God making the seventh day. Of course, you have found how that some people thought it was there, but it is not, but I would like to know what that means to you personally, and what, if any, Catholic teachings would address this?

You have correctly stated how that this phrase is not explicitly stated in the account of the creation of the seventh day - can you explain what this means?

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Well, certainly, friendship is always welcome.

I find myself wondering though - what point you are leading up to here with the discussion on genesis, in this topic about the Sabbath.

Actually, I don’t really wonder. I think I know.

In another thread you make the point how that in the creation accounts of when each day was made by God, that the phrase: “and the evening and the morning were the _____ day;” was not stated in the account of God making the seventh day. Of course, you have found how that some people thought it was there, but it is not, but I would like to know what that means to you personally, and what, if any, Catholic teachings would address this?

You have correctly stated how that this phrase is not explicitly stated in the account of the creation of the seventh day - can you explain what this means?

Yes that is one of the points I was leading up to, and already discussed that with another SDA in a different thread…I believe the title of that thread was “When did the church begin to worship on Sunday?”…or something close to that title.

I figured since we were talking about the saturday/sunday issue, why not start at the beginning and go through the history of the sabbath. I believe it will take longer, but it avoids the confusion and loss of points made by both Catholics and Adventists by throwing a bunch of verses from all over the Bible and thinking the issue resolved.

It was just an approach I thought worthwhile given the history of discussion on here that really didn’t take a methodical look at, and discussion of, the topic.

As for the few SDAs I cite as to thinking the phrase “morning and evening were the seventh day” were in the Bible, I merely offered that as a point of discussion for “churchcamefirst” and his SDA co-worker who keeps referring to the Pope as the anti-christ. While having no documented study on how many SDAs think that phrase is in the Bible, it was my experience in the SDA church that most of us thought that was there, or at least just assumed that phrase was there regarding the seventh day of creation. And in Bible studies with non-SDAs that point was always asserted.

Of course SDAs on this forum reading my thoughts on that will say they read the verse correctly…but I’m willing to bet that anyone talking with a SDA outside this forum will discover that the SDA believes that phrase morning and evening is associated with the seventh day of creation. I may be wrong…but I don’t think so, and I would love to hear the results of that question from anyone who asks a SDA that question while their Bibles are closed.

It’s a phenomenon that I’ve noticed that just fascinates me for some strange reason…mostly because I was subject to it myself…and then discovered that I wasn’t alone in that.

Just like having read the Bible over and over regarding the crucifixion and swearing on my life that Jesus never received the wine vinegar on the cross…when the Bible clearly says he did. That fact totally contradicts SDA teaching on the matter.

John 19:28 Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” 29A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. 30When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

As for the few SDAs I cite as to thinking the phrase “morning and evening were the seventh day” were in the Bible, I merely offered that as a point of discussion for “churchcamefirst” and his SDA co-worker who keeps referring to the Pope as the anti-christ.

This is the thread where my discussion with “churchcamefirst” is referred to above:

**“Bible study turns to Catholic bashing” ** in Non-Catholic religions.

 

[Protestant101]

Yes that is one of the points I was leading up to, and already discussed that with another SDA in a different thread…I believe the title of that thread was “When did the church begin to worship on Sunday?”…or something close to that title.

OK, thanks. But what does that mean to you, this fact that in the creation account of the seventh day, that the phrase “and the morning and the evening were the seventh day” is not explicitly there in the text? What, in your mind does this “prove” about the seventh day Sabbath? Is there official Catholic teaching on that point?

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

OK, thanks. But what does that mean to you, this fact that in the creation account of the seventh day, that the phrase “and the morning and the evening were the seventh day” is not explicitly there in the text? What, in your mind does this “prove” about the seventh day Sabbath? Is there official Catholic teaching on that point?

Hi 101,

Well, it looks like we are once again going to skip creation week and go right to the seventh day…and that is Ok:thumbsup:

The SDA church teaches that creation week is a literal seven day period as shown by the phrase “evening and morning” at the end of each day of creation. This is used to explain that the sabbath/saturday was institued at creation and meant to be kept in the weekly cycle from the very beginning.

And yet, I find it so very interesting that the seventh day is the only day in the creation story that lacks the “evening and morning” designation. As you read the creation story from the first verses through, you find that after God finished creating our world and all that is in it, He looks at it, says it is good, and He rests from His work.

He doesn’t command, ask, or teach Adam and Eve to rest. Why? Because the world is perfect and from the seventh day of creation onward for all eternity, Human kind was living life on earth, with God, in full communion with Him…forever!! There was no need to keep a weekly sabbath because eternity was the seventh day, the sabbath, God’s Rest. Each and every day, from evening to morning, was perfect existence…God with His human children…together. Each day was worshipful because each day men and women were face to face walking with God in the Garden. They didn’t stop on saturday and worship God, they lived with Him each day in perfect worship!

That was before sin entered the world. The sabbath was then institued with Moses, as part of the education in salvation. The seventh day after sin was not eternity with God. It had to be limited to one day a week, because humankind had to work to live and survive. The seventh day sabbath, was used to teach humankind one day a week, in a world of sin, what life was like seven days a week in a world without sin.

That is why the sabbath is not about one day over another…salvation is not about days, it is about redemption and restoration from sin to life with God as it was before sin entered our world. That is what Paul is talking about in the book of Hebrews when he writes about God’s Rest. And that is why Jesus did not make a big issue over the importance of the sabbath day in the NT.

To make the focus of salvation center on one day over another is to degrade salvation, redemption, and restoration.

God bless all!!!

 

[Protestant101]

Hi 101,

Well, it looks like we are once again going to skip creation week and go right to the seventh day…and that is Ok:thumbsup:

The SDA church teaches that creation week is a literal seven day period as shown by the phrase “evening and morning” at the end of each day of creation. This is used to explain that the sabbath/saturday was institued at creation and meant to be kept in the weekly cycle from the very beginning.

And yet, I find it so very interesting that the seventh day is the only day in the creation story that lacks the “evening and morning” designation. As you read the creation story from the first verses through, you find that after God finished creating our world and all that is in it, He looks at it, says it is good, and He rests from His work.

OK, then explain further - what do you really mean here? What is the official catholic teaching here on the creation week? Do they teach that it was a literal 7 days period? I find it “so very interesting” too but not for the same reasons. There is another “designation” that IS NOT THERE too. I’ll give you one guess what it is.

That is why the sabbath is not about one day over another…salvation is not about days, it is about redemption and restoration from sin to life with God as it was before sin entered our world. That is what Paul is talking about in the book of Hebrews when he writes about God’s Rest. And that is why Jesus did not make a big issue over the importance of the sabbath day in the NT.

To make the focus of salvation center on one day over another is to degrade salvation, redemption, and restoration.

God bless all!!!

What a marvellous strawman…not wanting to degrade salvation! You have cooked up a good one here. But, it is indeed about a day, when you consider whose “authority” we obey concerning a day.

People on this forum have been telling myself and other Adventists how the Catholic Church did not change anything about the Sabbath itself; yet your own publications and official literature deny this:

The Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, or seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord’s Day. The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, can. xix) condemns those who deny that the Ten Commandments are binding on Christians. newadvent.org/cathen/04153a.htm

“The Catholic Church gets full credit or blame for the change”
“It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.” Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.

“Protestants … accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change… But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that … in observing Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the Church, the pope.” (Source: Our Sunday Visitor, February 5th, 1950.) Taken from This Rock, June 1997

The Catholic Church is indeed making this whole issue one of a certain day. Her current and past actions in countries where she can get away with it show an ambitious willingness to use the political powers that be to further the exercise of her “authority” regarding the change to Sunday, which only the Catholic Church is responsible for.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

OK, then explain further - what do you really mean here? What is the official catholic teaching here on the creation week? Do they teach that it was a literal 7 days period? I find it “so very interesting” too but not for the same reasons. There is another “designation” that IS NOT THERE too. I’ll give you one guess what it is.

You can find the official Catholic teaching about this in the Catechism…it is online.

Protestant101:

What a marvellous strawman…not wanting to degrade salvation! You have cooked up a good one here. But, it is indeed about a day, when you consider whose “authority” we obey concerning a day.

I have never by taught by Catholics that keeping Sunday holy is a matter of my salvation. I have been taught by SDAs that it is.

People on this forum have been telling myself and other Adventists how the Catholic Church did not change anything about the Sabbath itself; yet your own publications and official literature deny this:

“The Catholic Church gets full credit or blame for the change”
“It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.” Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903…

These issues and points were extensively discussed in the Amazing Facts Bible Study Guides thread. I refer you and others to that thread.

The Catholic Church is indeed making this whole issue one of a certain day. Her current and past actions in countries where she can get away with it show an ambitious willingness to use the political powers that be to further the exercise of her “authority” regarding the change to Sunday, which only the Catholic Church is responsible for.

I would disagree with this statement. It appears that the SDA church is who is making a whole issue of a certain day…The majority of other Christian communities do not have an issue with this…but it is the central pillar of the SDA church, and so important in fact that the name of a day is the first word of the name of the denomination…Seventh Day Adventist.

God bless all!!!

 

[Protestant101]

I have never by taught by Catholics that keeping Sunday holy is a matter of my salvation. I have been taught by SDAs that it is.

Patrick; thanks for the replies. I find this particular comment “so very interesting.” There are two aspects which I would be interested to hear more on:

1/ I know you say you have been taught by SDAs that we teach how the seventh day Sabbath is a matter of salvation, and I have no trouble believing you on this, and that this is something you experienced personally. Everyone knows that with any church, and any doctrine, there will be differing understandings on same - so it should not come as a surprise to the Bible student that some Adventists have taught it to you this way.

Therefore, what I would like to see you do on that point is to show where in our official teachings that we teach this, since, as you say; the seventh day sabbth should not be “a matter of salvation.”

2/ You state that you have not been taught by Catholics that Sunday is a matter of salvation to them - can you show conclusively in official Catholic writings how this is so. Generally speaking, from what I have read of your literature - this is definitely not the case. And Adventists have never, and will never be seen “in the public square” “promoting” political legislation regarding the seventh day; yet the Catholic church is very busy in various countries, doing just that. This is very interesting, in light of your confident comments here.

These issues and points were extensively discussed in the Amazing Facts Bible Study Guides thread. I refer you and others to that thread.

You seem like you are being a bit evasive on this point, which I have touched on again in this post’s point #2. I believe that it is very important to this topic as well; and am hoping that you or other Catholics can help me see this from your view more clearly.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Patrick; thanks for the replies. I find this particular comment “so very interesting.” There are two aspects which I would be interested to hear more on:

101…Are you EVER going to answer any questions that are asked of you?? Time after time you are asked questions on different threads and you seem to always evade answering them. So at the risk of once again answering your questions while you continue to ignore mine (and others), I will provide my answers below…not so much for you any more, as for others who are reading these threads and need to know what the SDA church teaches…especially as it relates to Catholicism.

Are you yet ready to share with me what you personally think and believe about the Pope and the Catcholic Church? I’m doing what you said you would like to see me do…will you not do what I would like to see you do?

1/ I know you say you have been taught by SDAs that we teach how the seventh day Sabbath is a matter of salvation, and I have no trouble believing you on this, and that this is something you experienced personally. Everyone knows that with any church, and any doctrine, there will be differing understandings on same - so it should not come as a surprise to the Bible student that some Adventists have taught it to you this way.

Therefore, what I would like to see you do on that point is to show where in our official teachings that we teach this, since, as you say; the seventh day sabbth should not be “a matter of salvation.”

From the official website of the Seventh Day Adventist Church regarding the obervance of the sabbath: adventist.org/beliefs/other_documents/other_doc6.html

“The consequences for forgetting the Sabbath day to keep it holy are serious. It will lead to the distortion and eventual destruction of a person’s relationship with God.”

“Sabbath keepers may have to face resistance at times because of their commitment to God to keep the Sabbath holy. To those who do not recognize God as their Creator, it seems arbitrary or inexplicable for someone to cease from all work on the Sabbath day for merely religious reasons. Meaningful Sabbath observance testifies to the fact that we have chosen to obey God’s commandment. We thus recognize that our life is now lived in obedience to God’s Word. The Sabbath will be a special test in the end time. The believer will have to make a choice either to give allegiance to God’s Word or to human authority (Rev 14:7, 12).”

What, why, when, and how will this “test” come about? Below are three chapters from The Great Controversy by Ellen G. White, the prophetess of the SDA church. These pretty much lay out the beliefs of SDAs towad Catholicism and sabbath being a matter of salvation…and if anyone “out there” in “Forumland” reads them, then you will understand why I struggled so greatly with joining the Catholic Church…and why I prayed long and hard with many tears so as not to be deceived by Satan in making that choice.

Chapter 3, An Era of Spiritual Darkness

whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc3.html

Chapter 38, The Final Warning

whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc38.html

Chapter 39, The Time of Trouble

whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc39.html

Also from the “prophetess” from the book Testimonies vol. 6 page 356

*"Before the Sabbath begins, the mind as well as the body should be withdrawn from worldly business. God has set His Sabbath at the end of the six working days, that men may stop and consider what they have gained during the week in preparation for the pure kingdom which admits no transgressor. We should each Sabbath reckon with our souls to see whether the week that has ended has brought spiritual gain or loss. {6T 356.3}

It means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord. God says: “Them that honor Me I will honor.” 1 Samuel 2:30. {6T 356.4}*

I don’t think my understanding, nor the majority of SDAs, is unclear on this matter.

I would be very surprised that you never learned this…but then I have a good idea that you did learn this…and believe it.

2/ You state that you have not been taught by Catholics that Sunday is a matter of salvation to them - can you show conclusively in official Catholic writings how this is so. Generally speaking, from what I have read of your literature - this is definitely not the case. And Adventists have never, and will never be seen “in the public square” “promoting” political legislation regarding the seventh day; yet the Catholic church is very busy in various countries, doing just that. This is very interesting, in light of your confident comments here.

I’ll tell you what…since I provided the SDA teaching on this…why don’t you provide your findings from what you have read in “our publications”???

God Bless All!!!

 

[Protestant101]

101…Are you EVER going to answer any questions that are asked of you?? Time after time you are asked questions on different threads and you seem to always evade answering them. So at the risk of once again answering your questions while you continue to ignore mine (and others), I will provide my answers below…not so much for you any more, as for others who are reading these threads and need to know what the SDA church teaches…especially as it relates to Catholicism.

Nice “cherry-picking” above there Patrick. But when are you going to figure that you are under no obligation to answer any of my questions - in fact in your last post, you didn’t answer any of them anyways!! You “answered” your own questions to me!! LOL. You keep wanting some kind of shooting match to see who answers the most questions? Great. Have fun. I’ll be chuckling for a while over this one - but as for what I personally believe about the Catholic Church and the Pope, I never did come to this forum to talk about such subjects. If you would check my posts from the last two years, you will see that there are some subjects I have never initiated a post on.

I asked my questions above, not really expecting you to answer, but hoping that other Catholics would be willing to contribute to this line of questions I have presented.

I wonder, can anyone explain what Patrick has mentioned a few posts ago about how in the Bible’s creation story, the creation of the seventh day the phrase: “the evening and the morning were the seventh day?” Why might this phrase be missing from the text there?

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

1/ I know you say you have been taught by SDAs that we teach how the seventh day Sabbath is a matter of salvation, and I have no trouble believing you on this, and that this is something you experienced personally. Everyone knows that with any church, and any doctrine, there will be differing understandings on same - so it should not come as a surprise to the Bible student that some Adventists have taught it to you this way.

Therefore, what I would like to see you do on that point is to show where in our official teachings that we teach this, since, as you say; the seventh day sabbth should not be "a matter of salvation."

Ok…I did…now can you show me from your official teachings where you do not teach this?

I ask you my questions expecting an answer. Thanks in advance!

God Bless All!!!

 

[Protestant101]

Ok…I did…now can you show me from your official teachings where you do not teach this?

I ask you my questions expecting an answer. Thanks in advance!

God Bless All!!!

In this post; I will enclose a preliminary response to your charge that Seventh-day Adventists do in fact teach that the Sabbath is “a matter of salvation.” Our official teachings do not agree with your “interpretation” of Ellen White’s writings. And, like it or not, only our official teachings can “prove” what we “really believe.”

Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as their only creed and hold certain fundamental beliefs to be the teaching of the Holy Scriptures. These beliefs, as set forth here, constitute the church’s understanding and expression of the teaching of Scripture. Revision of these statements may be expected at a General Conference session when the church is led by the Holy Spirit to a fuller understanding of Bible truth or finds better language in which to express the teachings of God’s Holy Word.

**19. Law of God:
**The great principles of God’s law are embodied in the Ten Commandments and exemplified in the life of Christ. They express God’s love, will, and purposes concerning human conduct and relationships and are binding upon all people in every age. These precepts are the basis of God’s covenant with His people and the standard in God’s judgment. Through the agency of the Holy Spirit they point out sin and awaken a sense of need for a Saviour. Salvation is all of grace and not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments. This obedience develops Christian character and results in a sense of well-being. It is an evidence of our love for the Lord and our concern for our fellow men. The obedience of faith demonstrates the power of Christ to transform lives, and therefore strengthens Christian witness. (Ex. 20:1-17; Ps. 40:7, 8; Matt. 22:36-40; Deut. 28:1-14; Matt. 5:17-20; Heb. 8:8-10; John 15:7-10; Eph. 2:8-10; 1 John 5:3; Rom. 8:3, 4; Ps. 19:7-14.)

**20. Sabbath:
**The beneficent Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation. The fourth commandment of God’s unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God’s kingdom. The Sabbath is God’s perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God’s creative and redemptive acts. (Gen. 2:1-3; Ex. 20:8-11; Luke 4:16; Isa. 56:5, 6; 58:13, 14; Matt. 12:1-12; Ex. 31:13-17; Eze. 20:12, 20; Deut. 5:12-15; Heb. 4:1-11; Lev. 23:32; Mark 1:32.)

I would also ask that you please try to define what you mean when you say something is “a matter of salvation.” And where in this official statement of The General Conference do you see your accusations supported?

It is all too easy for the cherry-picking syndrome to take hold on either side here, in terms of what we respectively believe. It is fruitless for you to randomly pick small quotes from various writings of Adventists, that appear to give credence to your charges, until you take the time to compare things that you are reading, with the officially General Conference approved doctrinal statement. This is something I have noticed you don’t do a very good job of.

As an aside; you mentioned that because of what we teach you found it extra hard to leave the Adventist Church; but, conversely, I have publicly questioned your experience as an Adventist - and if you ever really understood what we believe, as it should be understood. I ask the same question of all ex-Adventists on this forum. To be sure, an ex-Adventist is never an “expert” on what we believe. (although they like to keep saying they are).

Take care Patrick - may God bless you and keep you as we study together.:tiphat:

 

[wildrumpus]

Why, oh why is this important?

Didn’t Jesus say that man was not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath was made for man?

Do you really think that if you respected the Sabbath on Wednesday that you wouldn’t be allowed into heaven?

Christ knows where your heart is. As long as it is on Him, that’s more important than what day you choose or interpret.

Reading all of the posts on this thread makes it very clear to me that everyone involved is more intent upon proving their own beliefs instead of concentrating on Him. Why focus on the differences between you instead of concentrating on Him and His teachings? If you tried to find your commonalities instead of your differences, maybe there would be less stress and frustration, and maybe you wouldn’t be sidetracked from what (Who) is really important. Stop the quibbling. Satan is laughing with all of this nonsense, and Jesus is crying.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

In this post; I will enclose a preliminary response to your charge that Seventh-day Adventists do in fact teach that the Sabbath is “a matter of salvation.” Our official teachings do not agree with your “interpretation” of Ellen White’s writings. And, like it or not, only our official teachings can “prove” what we “really believe.”

Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as their only creed and hold certain fundamental beliefs to be the teaching of the Holy Scriptures. These beliefs, as set forth here, constitute the church’s understanding and expression of the teaching of Scripture. Revision of these statements may be expected at a General Conference session when the church is led by the Holy Spirit to a fuller understanding of Bible truth or finds better language in which to express the teachings of God’s Holy Word.

**19. Law of God:
**The great principles of God’s law are embodied in the Ten Commandments and exemplified in the life of Christ. They express God’s love, will, and purposes concerning human conduct and relationships and are binding upon all people in every age. These precepts are the basis of God’s covenant with His people and the standard in God’s judgment. Through the agency of the Holy Spirit they point out sin and awaken a sense of need for a Saviour. Salvation is all of grace and not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments. This obedience develops Christian character and results in a sense of well-being. It is an evidence of our love for the Lord and our concern for our fellow men. The obedience of faith demonstrates the power of Christ to transform lives, and therefore strengthens Christian witness. (Ex. 20:1-17; Ps. 40:7, 8; Matt. 22:36-40; Deut. 28:1-14; Matt. 5:17-20; Heb. 8:8-10; John 15:7-10; Eph. 2:8-10; 1 John 5:3; Rom. 8:3, 4; Ps. 19:7-14.)

**20. Sabbath:
**The beneficent Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation. The fourth commandment of God’s unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God’s kingdom. The Sabbath is God’s perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God’s creative and redemptive acts. (Gen. 2:1-3; Ex. 20:8-11; Luke 4:16; Isa. 56:5, 6; 58:13, 14; Matt. 12:1-12; Ex. 31:13-17; Eze. 20:12, 20; Deut. 5:12-15; Heb. 4:1-11; Lev. 23:32; Mark 1:32.)

I would also ask that you please try to define what you mean when you say something is “a matter of salvation.” And where in this official statement of The General Conference do you see your accusations supported?

It is all too easy for the cherry-picking syndrome to take hold on either side here, in terms of what we respectively believe. It is fruitless for you to randomly pick small quotes from various writings of Adventists, that appear to give credence to your charges, until you take the time to compare things that you are reading, with the officially General Conference approved doctrinal statement. This is something I have noticed you don’t do a very good job of.

As an aside; you mentioned that because of what we teach you found it extra hard to leave the Adventist Church; but, conversely, I have publicly questioned your experience as an Adventist - and if you ever really understood what we believe, as it should be understood. I ask the same question of all ex-Adventists on this forum. To be sure, an ex-Adventist is never an “expert” on what we believe. (although they like to keep saying they are).

Take care Patrick - may God bless you and keep you as we study together.:tiphat:

Thank you Protestant101 for your quotes above, which do clarify your official teachings on the sabbath.

It appears that I was misunderstanding what the following quote from the SDA official website means: "The Sabbath will be a special test in the end time. The believer will have to make a choice either to give allegiance to God’s Word or to human authority (Rev 14:7, 12)."

It is encouraging to know that that “test” will not be a matter of one’s salvation.

It is also apparent that I misunderstood Ellen G. White’s writings and teachings regarding the sabbath from what you shared (even after having read her books over the years).

I am encouraged that the SDA church no longer teaches those things to which I referred in my post above, because that is what I was taught when I was a member of the SDA church.

It appears from what you have shared, that the SDA church has made great progress over the past 20 years in coming more in alignment with what the Catholic Church teaches. Hopefully that will lead to full reconciliation at some point in the future!!!

The fact that the SDA church teaches that sabbath/saturday keeping is not a matter of salvation, eases my mind so very much in the decision I’ve made to join the Cathoilc Church. And it should ease the minds of other SDAs who are considering joining the Catholic Church. It is Jesus who saves us…not going to church on saturday or sunday.

Your clarification has actually helped to remove any lingering doubts I may have had…thank you!!! It is good to be clear and not misunderstand, nor misrepresent the teachings of any church!

God bless you too Protestant101!!! I still call you “friend”!!!

God Bless All!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Why, oh why is this important?

Didn’t Jesus say that man was not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath was made for man?

Do you really think that if you respected the Sabbath on Wednesday that you wouldn’t be allowed into heaven?

Christ knows where your heart is. As long as it is on Him, that’s more important than what day you choose or interpret.

Reading all of the posts on this thread makes it very clear to me that everyone involved is more intent upon proving their own beliefs instead of concentrating on Him. Why focus on the differences between you instead of concentrating on Him and His teachings? If you tried to find your commonalities instead of your differences, maybe there would be less stress and frustration, and maybe you wouldn’t be sidetracked from what (Who) is really important. Stop the quibbling. Satan is laughing with all of this nonsense, and Jesus is crying.

What you say above is true, and this has been weighing on my heart for some time now. Jesus is The Way, The Truth, and The Light. Quibbling never was, never is, and never will be. There is no peace and joy in that.

Thank you for reminding me of that!!

God Bless All!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

It appears that I was misunderstanding what the following quote from the SDA official website means: "The Sabbath will be a special test in the end time. The believer will have to make a choice either to give allegiance to God’s Word or to human authority (Rev 14:7, 12)."

It is encouraging to know that that “test” will not be a matter of one’s salvation.

Hi Protestant101, I went back and read more in the official SDA website, and then I went and looked at the verses referenced above…Rev. 14:7,12.

***Rev. 14:6Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. 7He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.” 8A second angel followed and said, “Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.”

9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.” 12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. ***

I was taught, and always believed, as a SDA that this is referring to worshipping on Sunday, and that that would have an impact on my eternal life. These verses were referrenced in regard to the “special test in the end time” that the sabbath will be, according to the document on Sabbath Observance on the official SDA website.

Am I correct to assume that based on what you shared above, that my understanding of this is no longer accurate? Thanks in advance for any clarification you can provide!!

God Bless All!!!

 

[Protestant101]

Why, oh why is this important?

Didn’t Jesus say that man was not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath was made for man?

Do you really think that if you respected the Sabbath on Wednesday that you wouldn’t be allowed into heaven?

Christ knows where your heart is. As long as it is on Him, that’s more important than what day you choose or interpret.

Reading all of the posts on this thread makes it very clear to me that everyone involved is more intent upon proving their own beliefs instead of concentrating on Him. Why focus on the differences between you instead of concentrating on Him and His teachings? If you tried to find your commonalities instead of your differences, maybe there would be less stress and frustration, and maybe you wouldn’t be sidetracked from what (Who) is really important. Stop the quibbling. Satan is laughing with all of this nonsense, and Jesus is crying.

It is essential to read it like God says in the Bible - otherwise, it is not Biblical.

The Bible says “THE Sabbath;” meaning there is only one Sabbath; and that, according to the Bible, is the seventh day. This is a “commonality” available to Christians of every denomination.

 

[Protestant101]

Thank you Protestant101 for your quotes above, which do clarify your official teachings on the sabbath.

It appears that I was misunderstanding what the following quote from the SDA official website means: "The Sabbath will be a special test in the end time. The believer will have to make a choice either to give allegiance to God’s Word or to human authority (Rev 14:7, 12)."

It is encouraging to know that that “test” will not be a matter of one’s salvation.

It is also apparent that I misunderstood Ellen G. White’s writings and teachings regarding the sabbath from what you shared (even after having read her books over the years).

I am encouraged that the SDA church no longer teaches those things to which I referred in my post above, because that is what I was taught when I was a member of the SDA church.

It appears from what you have shared, that the SDA church has made great progress over the past 20 years in coming more in alignment with what the Catholic Church teaches. Hopefully that will lead to full reconciliation at some point in the future!!!

The fact that the SDA church teaches that sabbath/saturday keeping is not a matter of salvation, eases my mind so very much in the decision I’ve made to join the Cathoilc Church. And it should ease the minds of other SDAs who are considering joining the Catholic Church. It is Jesus who saves us…not going to church on saturday or sunday.

Your clarification has actually helped to remove any lingering doubts I may have had…thank you!!! It is good to be clear and not misunderstand, nor misrepresent the teachings of any church!

God bless you too Protestant101!!! I still call you “friend”!!!

God Bless All!!!

Happy Sabbath Patrick;

I think that there are many things misunderstood about the Sabbath - and not just by Catholics!! I am glad that I was able to help clarify a bit of it here. I have little time to reply for a day or three, but just wanted to let you know that I am glad you “still call me friend!” I will have a detailed reply asap.