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happilycatholic
Guest
Again, very SDA.
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happilycatholic
Guest
Still haven’t looked at the Vatican’s website huh. You’d better not miss mass because unlike SDAs, it’s an obligation for us not just “ceremonial law” as you put it.
Do you even believe that Christ is alive and present in the mass at the point of trasubstantiation? How can you think that this is “ceremonial” when that particular word refers to the OT laws before Christ was sacrificed and the very ones that were done away upon Christ’s resurrection.
The mass is not a ceremony and it is not part of ceremonial law. It is a celebration of Christ’s resurrection and the washing away of sins and becoming one with Christ through the sacrament of the Eucharist.
S
SDA2RC
Guest
Thats not SDA… thats plain logic…
Catholicism is logical and scriptural… what your presenting is not any of the above which is why your only response can be to label is as “Adventist” rather than deal with the inconsistency in your own position.
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happilycatholic
Guest
Then why do you refuse to look at the catechism as it is posted on the Vatican’s website? I don’t understand what your aversion is.
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happilycatholic
Guest
I didn’t say you were making me choose between the Sabbath and catholicism. I said you are making me choose between the Third Commandment and catholicism.
Again, your statements are very SDA.
If you would do as I ask and read the Commandments as they are posted by the Vatican, you will see that we are bound by the Third Commandment to keep Holy the Lord’s Day.
R
Realcatholicgk
Guest
**I have NEVER heard a Catholic say we are not bound by the 10 Commandments.See, that’s just it we do. The Third Commandment. We just believe it was changed by the Apostles as a day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.
I know, it’s contridicting to SDA doctrine of the Commandments, and apparently to some Catholics as well! The catholics on this thread believe that we are not bound by the Commandments anymore.
**** Reference the Third:**
Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.
One day in the week should be reserved especially for God. It is true that we must not simply keep our religion for Sundays. But it is God’s will that one day should he free from the ordinary routine of life so that more special attention and care should be given to the service of GodThe Jews kept Saturday holy. Real Christians keep Sunday. There is actually nothing particularly sacred about Saturday or Sunday in themselves. The important thing is that one day should be devoted to God and the Church has the authority of God to decide which day it shall be.
Catholics keep Sunday holy by attending Mass and resting from servile work. This rule still holds.If the work is necessary of course then it may be done.
Attendance at Mass
Catholics are bound to attend Mass on Sundays and certain other days in the year. That is a precept of the church! Christ said: Do this for a commemoration of Me when He celebrated the first Mass at His Last Supper. The Church tells us we must fulfil the command of Christ by going to Mass on Sundays and these few other days, at least. It is a serious obligation for a Catholic, though the rule is sometimes puzzling to non-Catholics.
They say "What is the sense of being forced to worship God?"
Of course if we always remembered clearly what a wonderful thing the Mass is there would be no need for a law to compel us to go. And in fact a good Catholic does realize what a wonderful thing it is and takes a delight in attending Mass.
But it is important to be free from humbug on this point. The fact is that, being human, no matter who we are, we are prone to take the easy way out. We know that if there were not a law we would very much more easily find excuses for ourselves on a cold winter’s morning or when for one reason or another it was inconvenient to go to Mass. Bit by bit we could very easily fall into a careless habits. We know very well we need a law not just to compel us but to help us to do what we know is best.
"O my God, teach me to love Thee."
The love of God will lead us often to think how good God is; often to speak to Him in our hearts; and always to seek to please Him.
H
happilycatholic
Guest
I’m curious as to why you bold the “as they are written”. We as catholics did not change the way the Third Commandment is written, the Apostles changed the way the obligation is fulfilled. You are being petty.
Do you not realize the very thing you’re asking me to do is exactly what an SDA would ask me to do. Deny the Third Commandment and if I don’t, then I belong to a faith that worships on the wrong day.
Why do you continue to promote this doctrine as catholic? Show me where the Church teaches us to follow all but the Third Commandment.
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happilycatholic
Guest
Hi realcatholic:**I have NEVER heard a Catholic say we are not bound by the 10 Commandments.
Reference the Third:
Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.
One day in the week should be reserved especially for God. It is true that we must not simply keep our religion for Sundays. But it is God’s will that one day should he free from the ordinary routine of life so that more special attention and care should be given to the service of GodThe Jews kept Saturday holy. Real Christians keep Sunday. There is actually nothing particularly sacred about Saturday or Sunday in themselves. The important thing is that one day should be devoted to God and the Church has the authority of God to decide which day it shall be.
Catholics keep Sunday holy by attending Mass and resting from servile work. This rule still holds.If the work is necessary of course then it may be done.
Attendance at Mass
Catholics are bound to attend Mass on Sundays and certain other days in the year. That is a precept of the church! Christ said: Do this for a commemoration of Me when He celebrated the first Mass at His Last Supper. The Church tells us we must fulfil the command of Christ by going to Mass on Sundays and these few other days, at least. It is a serious obligation for a Catholic, though the rule is sometimes puzzling to non-Catholics.
They say "What is the sense of being forced to worship God?"
Of course if we always remembered clearly what a wonderful thing the Mass is there would be no need for a law to compel us to go. And in fact a good Catholic does realize what a wonderful thing it is and takes a delight in attending Mass.
But it is important to be free from humbug on this point. The fact is that, being human, no matter who we are, we are prone to take the easy way out. We know that if there were not a law we would very much more easily find excuses for ourselves on a cold winter’s morning or when for one reason or another it was inconvenient to go to Mass. Bit by bit we could very easily fall into a careless habits. We know very well we need a law not just to compel us but to help us to do what we know is best.
"O my God, teach me to love Thee."
The love of God will lead us often to think how good God is; often to speak to Him in our hearts; and always to seek to please Him.
So you don’t see that we are bound by the Commandments either, even though it says so in the catechism? I’m a little confused by your post. You seem to form a question as to what I said, but then you go on in your post to say we need laws, etc.
Please clarify.
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happilycatholic
Guest
This is found in Section Two of the Catechism under the subheading, Ten Commandments:
[2177](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/2177.htm’) The Sunday celebration of the Lord’s Day and his Eucharist is at the heart of the Church’s life. "Sunday is the day on which the paschal mystery is celebrated in light of the apostolic tradition and is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal Church."110
So yes, the Third Commandment is to be kept. In other words we are bound to keep it. In still other words,
YES WE ARE TO KEEP ALL OF THE COMMANDMENTS, EVEN THE THIRD ONE!!
And to believe otherwise is not a catholic doctrine.
[2177](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/2177.htm’) The Sunday celebration of the Lord’s Day and his Eucharist is at the heart of the Church’s life. "Sunday is the day on which the paschal mystery is celebrated in light of the apostolic tradition and is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal Church."110So yes, the Third Commandment is to be kept. In other words we are bound to keep it. In still other words,
YES WE ARE TO KEEP ALL OF THE COMMANDMENTS, EVEN THE THIRD ONE!!
And to believe otherwise is not a catholic doctrine.
M
Marsha_Adams
Guest
Happily:
The Vatican and the Apostles are the same thing. They are the Magisterium.
Marsha
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Marsha_Adams
Guest
Of course it is a grave sin to miss Mass on Sunday.The reason that it is a grave sin to miss Mass on Sunday is that the Church by its authority implemented the precept requiring Mass attendance on Sunday. The Jews while keeping the third commandment were not required to attend temple every Sabbath. This is something that the Church demanded.
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happilycatholic
Guest
Well, in essence yes. But how in the world did we get to where we are now?
Do you as a catholic believe you are not bound by not only the Third Commandment, but all of them?
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happilycatholic
Guest
That is merely a glimpse at why it is a grave sin to miss mass on Sunday. Christ implemented the mass at the Last Supper. If we do not go to mass we are in direct disobedience of Christ. Hence the reason why we keep the Third Commandment.
The reason that it is a grave sin to miss Mass on Sunday is that the Church by its authority implemented the precept requiring Mass attendance on Sunday. The Jews while keeping the third commandment were not required to attend temple every Sabbath. This is something that the Church demanded.
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happilycatholic
Guest
Further, the Church cannot “implement” grave sin. Only God can create laws that when broken constitute grave sin. We do not attend mass because it is a “Church precept”.
Christ implemented the mass at the Last Supper, therefor as I said not attending is a grave sin.
Christ implemented the mass at the Last Supper, therefor as I said not attending is a grave sin.
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Marsha_Adams
Guest
We got to where we are now through the Apostolic Succession and the Teaching Authority of the Church.
I believe what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says in the quote below. To summarize it:
There is a natural moral law.
This natural moral law is reiterated in the 10 Commandments.
The 10 Commandments are part of the Old Law. (read this line twice)
We are under the New Law. See paragraph 1985.
Being under the New Law we cannot be under the Old Law. Being under the New Covenant we cannot be under the Old Covenant. Remember Jesus said that you can’t put new wine in old wine skins? This is exactly what He was talking about.
M
Marsha_Adams
Guest
Yes, Christ implemented the Mass at the Last Supper.
And yes, He said to “Do this in remembrance of Me.”
But He didn’t say how often to do it and in the Catholic Church we do it everyday, but the Church only requires that we do it once a week on either Saturday evening or Sunday. Ergo, it is not Christ that we are in disobedience of by not attending Mass every Sunday, it is the Church.
Christ also said that what the Church binds on earth will be bound in Heaven. Therefore, if we disobey the precepts of the Church, His Bride and His Body we are in disobedience to Him. But it must always be remembered that CHURCH AUTHORITY is the basis of it.
The only relation that weekly Mass Attendance has to the 3rd commandment is that the Church has stated that this is the best way to observe the moral principle contained in the 3rd commandment.
Did you know that if your company moved you to Oops the Back of Beyond, Montana and the closest Catholic Church was 300 miles away you would not be required to attend Mass? Canon Law says so.
Marsha
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happilycatholic
Guest
Here is where the “precerpt of the Church” comes in:
The Sunday obligation [2180](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2180.htm’) The precept of the Church specifies the law of the Lord more precisely: "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass."117 "The precept of participating in the Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the holy day or on the evening of the preceding day."118
Notice that it is not “implementing” but “specifying more precisely.” In other words, clarifying.
The Sunday obligation [2180](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/2180.htm’) The precept of the Church specifies the law of the Lord more precisely: "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass."117 "The precept of participating in the Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the holy day or on the evening of the preceding day."118Notice that it is not “implementing” but “specifying more precisely.” In other words, clarifying.
S
SDA2RC
Guest
Happily,
I have no problem loking at the catechism and have quoted from it to you several times. Where we are disconnecting is in the Middle. A + ? = C?
You have A correct… we follow the commandments, you have C correct, we go to Church on Sunday rather than Saturday. But we do this not because we are bound to the Old Law, but because we are bound to the New Law which the Church gives us. In the B Step is the scriptural and logical basis for why we say that we dont follow the commandments as they are written in scripture. We dont… thats just fact.
So how do we justify this from scripture and logic… that is B, and what we have been trying to talk to you about.
I am not responding as an Adventist (not that it would be bad) but as a logical person. But either way, this is the way an Adventist would question your statements too because as you are stating your case you contradicting yourself…
This is why I was trying to impress the difference between the moral and ceremonial aspects of the Law… We follow the moral commands, but the ceremonial were done away with at the Cross. The 10 Commandments as written in Exodus 20 include both moral and ceremonial aspects, especially the third. If you say that you are bound by the commandments, then an Adventists, or anyone else will question you on why you then ignore the command to keep the Sabbath on the Seventh-Day. If your only response is that the Church changed it… then you have just negated your claim to follow the commandments.
We are not attacking you… just trying to help explain how we get from point A to point C as Catholics.
S
SDA2RC
Guest
Which third commandment, the third commandment of the Church or the Third commandment in Exodus 20?
H
happilycatholic
Guest
First of all, your Sunday obligation is NOT fulfilled by attending the Saturday night mass.
Second, see my preceeding post.
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