why is sunday instead of saturday the sabboth?

[SDA2RC]

Well, in essence yes. But how in the world did we get to where we are now?

Do you as a catholic believe you are not bound by not only the Third Commandment, but all of them?

We are bound to the commandments in as far as they are interpreted and given to us by the Church as part of the New Law or New Covenant. We are not bound to them as written in the Old Testament because that includes ceremonial observances that have not been “renewed” in the New Covenant.

So Morally… yes… Ceremonially… No

 

[happilycatholic]

Which third commandment, the third commandment of the Church or the Third commandment in Exodus 20?

Wow, that’s quite a statement. The Church has NEVER claimed to have its own set of Commandments.

 

[SDA2RC]

Further, the Church cannot “implement” grave sin. Only God can create laws that when broken constitute grave sin. We do not attend mass because it is a “Church precept”.

Christ implemented the mass at the Last Supper, therefor as I said not attending is a grave sin.

Happily,
Christ instituted the Sacrament of the Eucharist at the last supper… but he did not say how often or when to observe this…

The institution of the consequences of missing Mass and the frequency of which we must attend, and day, is something that was implemented by the Church. The Church absolutely has the right and authority to implement practices that would constitue a grave sin if ignored.

 

[SDA2RC]

Wow, that’s quite a statement. The Church has NEVER claimed to have its own set of Commandments.

Yet… we dont go keep the Sabbath on Saturday… so Logic tells us that we do…

You cannot say we follow the same commandments as found in the Bible, when the Church does not observe the 7th day Sabbath… we just dont… that is a fact.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Here is where the “precerpt of the Church” comes in:

The Sunday obligation [2180](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2180.htm’) The precept of the Church specifies the law of the Lord more precisely: "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass."117 "The precept of participating in the Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the holy day or on the evening of the preceding day."118

Notice that it is not “implementing” but “specifying more precisely.” In other words, clarifying.

Happily:

If the Church had not implemented this precept, there is nothing in the Commandment that requires weekly Mass attendance. So the Church has created a new law.

Marsha

 

[happilycatholic]

We are bound to the commandments in as far as they are interpreted and given to us by the Church as part of the New Law or New Covenant. We are not bound to them as written in the Old Testament because that includes ceremonial observances that have not been “renewed” in the New Covenant.

So Morally… yes… Ceremonially… No

That’s odd. In the catechism our Sunday obligation is only referred to as moral obligation, with nothing said about a ceremony.

Mass is not a ceremony and it’s not optional. That is not because it’s implemented by the Church. It was implemented by Christ.

 

[SDA2RC]

I’m curious as to why you bold the “as they are written”. We as catholics did not change the way the Third Commandment is written, the Apostles changed the way the obligation is fulfilled. You are being petty.

Do you not realize the very thing you’re asking me to do is exactly what an SDA would ask me to do. Deny the Third Commandment and if I don’t, then I belong to a faith that worships on the wrong day.

Why do you continue to promote this doctrine as catholic? Show me where the Church teaches us to follow all but the Third Commandment.

It May be petty to you… but there is a real distinction, in that you cannot prove that the apostles changed the way it was to fulfilled from scripture.

The Church teaches us to follow all the but the Third commandment in the Catechism where it says that the Sabbath of Sunday replaced the ceremonial observance of the Sabbath. This is saying that we are to follow them all except this one, which the Church changed.

We still follow the moral obligation of the Commandment, but not the ceremonial.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Further, the Church cannot “implement” grave sin. Only God can create laws that when broken constitute grave sin. We do not attend mass because it is a “Church precept”.

Of course the Church can create laws that when broken constitute grave sin. What do you think days of fasting and abstinance are?

 

[SDA2RC]

First of all, your Sunday obligation is NOT fulfilled by attending the Saturday night mass.

Second, see my preceeding post.

Yes… your sunday obligation is fulfilled by attending the Vigil Mass on Saturday night.

 

[SDA2RC]

That’s odd. In the catechism our Sunday obligation is only referred to as moral obligation, with nothing said about a ceremony.

Mass is not a ceremony and it’s not optional. That is not because it’s implemented by the Church. It was implemented by Christ.

I am not talking about Mass and the ceremony… I am talking about the Sabbath and the ceremonial aspects of it.

The ceremonial aspects of the Sabbath were transferred to Sunday. I think it is in Paragraph 2175 if you want to look it up… and in paragraph 2176 it speaks of the moral precepts of the 3rd Commandments… the Chuch seperates the Moral and Ceremonial aspects of this commandments… It does not change the Moral aspects as we are bound to them. However, it does change the Ceremonial aspects of this commandment to Sunday rather than Saturday. We are not bound by the command to keep the Seventh-Day Sabbath, because it was part of the ceremonial aspect of the commandment.

 

[SDA2RC]

Still haven’t looked at the Vatican’s website huh. You’d better not miss mass because unlike SDAs, it’s an obligation for us not just “ceremonial law” as you put it.

Do you even believe that Christ is alive and present in the mass at the point of trasubstantiation? How can you think that this is “ceremonial” when that particular word refers to the OT laws before Christ was sacrificed and the very ones that were done away upon Christ’s resurrection.

The mass is not a ceremony and it is not part of ceremonial law. It is a celebration of Christ’s resurrection and the washing away of sins and becoming one with Christ through the sacrament of the Eucharist.

Do you read what I write? I never said the MASS was ceremonial and done away with… I said the observance of the 7th Day Sabbath was…

Sometimes I am not sure what your responding to because you refute points that I never made.

 

[SDA2RC]

And yes… I believe very much in Transubstantiation.

 

[happilycatholic]

Of course the Church can create laws that when broken constitute grave sin. What do you think days of fasting and abstinance are?

And to which Commandment do we owe these?

Because if they fall under a Commandment they are God’s law, not a law the Church “created”. And if they are not, then they are not grave sins.

 

[happilycatholic]

Do you read what I write? I never said the MASS was ceremonial and done away with… I said the observance of the 7th Day Sabbath was…

Sometimes I am not sure what your responding to because you refute points that I never made.

Look, you are the one that referred to us fulfilling the ceremonial law on the “1st Day of the week” and the moral law on the “1st Day of the week”.

Mass is not a fulfillment of any ceremonial law. It is purely moral obligation.

Methinks you do not read what you write.

 

[happilycatholic]

Yes… your sunday obligation is fulfilled by attending the Vigil Mass on Saturday night.

I stand corrected on this one.

But here is your “proof” that we are to keep all the commandments:

**2068 **The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29

Notice it does not exclude the Sabbath Commandment.

 

[SDA2RC]

Look, you are the one that referred to us fulfilling the ceremonial law on the “1st Day of the week” and the moral law on the “1st Day of the week”.

Mass is not a fulfillment of any ceremonial law. It is purely moral obligation.

Methinks you do not read what you write.

LOL…

Mass is a fulfillment of the moral precept of worship. The observance of Sunday as a holy day fulfills the ceremonial precept of the law.

 

[SDA2RC]

Happily,
The third commandment commands us to keep the Seventh-day as a Sabbath. The Catholic Church does not teach us to keep the seventh-day as a Sabbath. We do not follow the third commandment. I know what the council of trent said… but I also know that the Church does not command us to keep the seventh-day Sabbath… these are just facts…

While we are commanded in one place to follow the commandments, we are told in another to replace the observance of the 7th day Sabbath with Sunday. Is there a contradiction, it appears that way… until you understand the difference between the moral commands and the ceremonial.

I stand corrected on this one.

But here is your “proof” that we are to keep all the commandments:

**2068 **The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29

Notice it does not exclude the Sabbath Commandment.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

And to which Commandment do we owe these?

Because if they fall under a Commandment they are God’s law, not a law the Church “created”. And if they are not, then they are not grave sins.

They do not fall under any commandment and the Church has declared that they are grave sins.

 

[happilycatholic]

Happily,
The third commandment commands us to keep the Seventh-day as a Sabbath. The Catholic Church does not teach us to keep the seventh-day as a Sabbath. We do not follow the third commandment. I know what the council of trent said… but I also know that the Church does not command us to keep the seventh-day Sabbath… these are just facts…

While we are commanded in one place to follow the commandments, we are told in another to replace the observance of the 7th day Sabbath with Sunday. Is there a contradiction, it appears that way… until you understand the difference between the moral commands and the ceremonial.

**Notice the correction in the Commandment Number. We’ve been referring to the Sabbath Commandment as the 3d, but it is actually the 4th. Probably my fault.

You are correct. It says to keep the **Fourth Commandment by keeping Holy the Lord’s Day. You keep equating the Fourth Commandment with the Sabbath worship.

Catholics equate the Fourth Commandment with worship on the Lord’s Day. I’m not sure what this has to do with the distinction between moral and ceremonial law since no ceremonial law is contained in the Commandments. It is all moral law.

Only SDA’s and Jews equate the Fourth Commandment with Sabbath worship.

 

[happilycatholic]

They do not fall under any commandment and the Church has declared that they are grave sins.

Mortal or venial?

Okay, so the Church made up a sin? The only sins are sins against God. God tells us what is sin, not the Church.

The Church does not make up sins or “delare something a sin”. They might clarify the law such as they did with the 4th Commandment, but they don’t just make up a sin or declare it a sin unless it falls under a Commandment.

My guess is that these fall under the Fourth Commandment to keep the Lord’s Day Holy since the Eucharist is part of keeping the Lord’s Day Holy.