why is sunday instead of saturday the sabboth?

[Patrick_Murebil]

Patrick; this note is for you. I am happy to discover as I research that everything Adventists officially claim is in the Bible - but it will be a bit before I write in detail on that.

Hi Protestant101, I really look forward to you sharing the discoveries of your research in answering my 6 questions!! I understand that it takes a while to get all that into written form. Thank you in advance for taking the time to write out your research and discoveries in answering my 6 questions!!

What I wanted to comment on briefly here is how you have repeatedly stated in the last few posts how you do not “worship a day;” and that you only “worship the Trinity,” or words to that effect. First; I don’t think anyone has said that you, or Catholics in general, “worship a day.” Where do Adventists officially say this? I would like to know that detail that you have several times claimed here.

This is what Friedrich said, to which I responded. My other responses to what he says below are all back in the previous posts you’ve read regarding my comments.

"Originally Posted by Friedrich
It seems that because you believe in Sunday worship (not found in the Bible), you (all Sunday worshipers) try to find some Bible support for an UN-Biblical doctrine – the result is to try and negate Sabbath in Eden till Moses, then dump the Sabbath as a Jewish day, then nail it to the cross, then prove that Christ never kept Sabbath, that the Day of the Lord = Sunday etc."

I hope that clarifies for you why I wrote what I did.

I don’t think that Catholics in general; including you, really understand what Adventists actually do claim about either Sunday or the Sabbath. As I review the many pages of this thread; that is one thing I see emerging as a point that we can move forward on. I will be back asap. Take care, and take prayer…

That is why I look forward to your answers to my 6 questions!! This is the perfect opportunity for SDAs to provide the scpriptural evidence for your Biblical beliefs!!

That’s why I keep urging that we patiently await your responses to my 6 questions instead of continuing to argue back and forth. I don’t want your answers to my 6 questions to get lost in this thread any more than I want my 6 questions to get lost in this thread

P.S. Did you find my response to your posting of the official SDA position regarding the sabbath? I gave you page and post number in a previous post of mine. Let me know if you still need those citations for my reply to you…I think you should be able to find them alright!!

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

We seem to be going round and round regarding this issue, much like the Pharisees as they followed Jesus around trying to “trap” him in order to accuse him.

I believe that what RobHom has shared above, and what HappilyCatholic shared in earlier posts regarding the sabbath commandment in light of the creation of the world, and the Re-creation of our fallen world by the resurrection of Jesus, brings succint scriptural reasons for why Christians are not in violation of the thrid/fourth commandment by worshipping God on Sunday. It is completely and consistently in accordance with God’s will in the New Covenant. The New Covenant is not about which day is kept holy… It is not about days.

So, I would ask everyone on this thread to allow the SDAs a little time and breathing room to answer a few questions. And I would ask the SDAs to answer the following questions with scripture only. Forget the Catholic Catechism, forget the Sunday Mirror, and Forget the writings of Ellen G. White.

So from scripture alone…

1. If you believe that each day of the creation story is a literal 24 hour period, how do you explain there being morning and evening for 3 days before the sun and moon were created?
2. Since there is no command by God in the creation story to Adam and Eve to keep holy the sabbath day, what does the 7th day of creation mean to you in the context of the creation story?
3. From the time of creation and for the next 10 plus generations of people on earth, why is there no mention of the sabbath until the time of Moses?
4. In Jesus teaching regarding the Law and Him being the fulfilment of the Law in Matthew chapters 5-6, why does he not teach about the importance of the sabbath/saturday?
5. In all of the approximately 57 times that sabbath/saturday is mentioned in the New Testament, why is there no teaching, mention, or hint that the 7th day sabbath/saturday must be kept?
6. In all of the approximately 57 times that sabbath/saturday is mentioned in the New Testament, why is there no teaching about how important the sabbath/saturday will be as a test of fidelity to God at the end of time?

Please show in the scriptures and the scriptures alone the answers to these questions. I know a very interesting story has been created by Ellen G. White that answers these questions, and yet I cannot find this same interesting story in the scriptures.

I hope these questions don’t get lost in this fast moving thread, and I hope that more than one SDA will take part in answering them. I hope that everyone else will give them the freedom to answer without jumping in immediately and arguing.

Thank you in advance for taking the time to thoughtfully and prayerfully answer these questions!

God bless all!!!

For those of you just now joining us (Welcome Back Marsha)

These are my 6 questions to SDAs…just so they don’t get lost in this thread.

God bless all!!!

 

[Protestant101]

Hi Protestant101, I really look forward to you sharing the discoveries of your research in answering my 6 questions!! I understand that it takes a while to get all that into written form. Thank you in advance for taking the time to write out your research and discoveries in answering my 6 questions!!

Thanks; but I do want to point out that no one is saying that you worship the day itself. We are echoing your own Catechism which says that Sunday is the new day of worship; in other words, thats when you worship - not what you worship. This will be an important distinction to keep in mind as we move forward. (IMHO).

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Thanks; but I do want to point out that no one is saying that you worship the day itself. We are echoing your own Catechism which says that Sunday is the new day of worship; in other words, thats when you worship - not what you worship. This will be an important distinction to keep in mind as we move forward. (IMHO).

Hi Protestant101,

Thank you for the clarification! But that is not what was said by Friedrich…I was responding to what he said, not what anyone else said.

And as I pointed out before, while I worship on Sunday, which is the memorial of the New Creation (those redeemed from sin and death) accomplished by the Life, Passion, Crucifixion, and especially in the Victory of the Resurrection of Jesus, who makes all things new (including you and me:thumbsup: ), and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit who seals us in the New Covenant, and makes us one in His Body…The Church, (takes deep breath)…I worship God each and every day, sometimes in prayer and sometimes in Church.

But yes, Worshiping God, the Creator and the Redeemer, on the day of the memorial of His Resurrection, Sunday, is very special to me!!!

God bless all!!!

 

[Friedrich]

Dear Patrick

You said:

If you believe that each day of the creation story is a literal 24 hour period, how do you explain there being morning and evening for 3 days before the sun and moon were created?

I would humbly suggest the following points:

1. When God does not reveal everything to us, it is best not to speculate. We believe in the Trinity, the Incarnation, Resurrection, that Jesus walked on water and many more things that have to be accepted by faith.
2. We all sometimes use unscientific’ terms to describe our world, eg. the sun sets’, even though we know the earth rotates on its own axis every 24 hours, while simultaneously circling the sun every 365 days. Similarly, Moses is referring to 24 hour days, with or without the sun shining (Artic winter type of thing), since the earth rotates at constant speed…
3. Your question implies some inconsistency in the Creation Story – something like Days 1-3 are NOT 24 hour periods, Days 4-6 = 24 hour periods, Day 7 is NOT a 24 hour period (lack of evening/morning designation). Whoever thought that out, has a problem, I don’t, because of the following evidence:
   a. Genesis 1 v5 summarizes Day 1 with the words the first day
   b. Genesis 1 v8 summarizes Day 2 with the words the second day
   c. Genesis 1 v13 summarizes Day 3 with the words the third day
   d. Genesis 1 v19summarizes Day 4 with the words the fourth day
   e. Genesis 1 v23summarizes Day 5 with the words the fifth day
   f. Genesis 1 v31 summarizes Day 6 with the words the sixth day
   g. Genesis 2 v2 summarizes Day 7 with the words the seventh day (twice).
   In Biblical Hebrew, the word yom can be translated for various lengths of time, but when used in conjunction with a number (eg. Day 7), it ALWAYS MEANS 24 HOURS!
   h. Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Moses looks back 2500 years and tells the Creation Story as revealed to him. He simply says it took 7 literal days for God to complete the whole creation and bless and sanctify the Sabbath. He uses the common terms evening/morning and day to describe a day of 24 hours.
   i. Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Moses looks back 2500 years at the same Creation Story and reminds the Israelites: Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labour and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it’’ Exodus 20:8-11. Moses did not say Surprise! Something New to do!’’; he simply says: REMEMBER!

CONCLUSION: CREATION STORY IS OBVIOUSLY ABOUT 7 LITERAL DAYS, AND THE SABBATH IS A REMINDER OF CREATION WEEK. Any other conclusion is merely an attempt to pacify evolutionists or to negate the Sabbath in order to prove Sunday worship.

God bless once more,

Friedrich

 

[djconklin]

Are you telling me other resources are going to tell me Paul a learned Jew, who saw the Glorified Christ, doesnt know what he is talking about?

No one has ever suggested such a thing. What we have learned is that what we think Paul was saying (what we eat or drink, for instance) isn’t what he was saying.

True there are times for scholary purposes and study one can refer to outside commentaries and is needed for clarification,

You are correct.

but I dont think this passage teaching deserves such scrutiny.

I spent 3 years studying Col. 2:16-7. It is actually fairly complex.

I find that you picked one word from translation (matters) that helps the English speaking community to arrive at Paul’s meaning. And then contest the scholary translation.

There couldn’t have been a translation because there’s no Greek to support it. It is an interpretation that is unwarranted. That was only one point among the few I noted–which could be expanded further.

 

[djconklin]

Hi djconklin,

Let’s stay focused on my 6 questions, and, if possible, please provide the scriptures that support the beliefs reflected in those questions…if you want to. If not that is ok, because there are SDAs who are working on providing their answers from the Bible for the beliefs about which my 6 questions inquire.

God bless all!!!

Question #3 asked:

From the time of creation and for the next 10 plus generations of people on earth, why is there no mention of the sabbath until the time of Moses?

I answered it with several points:

I asked who made the rule that the Bible had to state it explicitly? This question also applies to some of the others in your list of 6 questions.

I also supplied an example that indicates that they knew of the Sabbath before the Law was given at Sinai. So, now we can ask how much further back was it known? We can also ask if it really makes sense to institute for the Jews at Sinai a memorial to something that happened long before there ever was a Jew?

Do you care to deal with them or not?​

Great points Friedrich!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Dear Patrick
You said:

I would humbly suggest the following points:

1. When God does not reveal everything to us, it is best not to speculate. We believe in the Trinity, the Incarnation, Resurrection, that Jesus walked on water and many more things that have to be accepted by faith.
2. We all sometimes use unscientific’ terms to describe our world, eg. the sun sets’, even though we know the earth rotates on its own axis every 24 hours, while simultaneously circling the sun every 365 days. Similarly, Moses is referring to 24 hour days, with or without the sun shining (Artic winter type of thing), since the earth rotates at constant speed…

Hi Friedrich, and thank you very much for your sharing your answer with me regarding Question 1 of my 6 Questions.

But by using your example above regarding Artic winter days and nights, you have just proven that a reference to “evening and morning” being a 24 hour day can be incorrect.

In the Artic, evening and morning, can be much longer than a 24 hour period, and a 24 hour period can be all daylight or all night time.

So you have not shown the days of creation to be 24 hours periods, even when the reference “morning and evening” are used.

We can conclude that God created temporal time as we know it, but the scriptural evidence does not prove literal 24 hour periods of days.

And this still does not explain how there was evening and morning for three days before the sun and the moon were created.

This does not prove a literal 24 hour period of time, especially not from the scriptures.

But I do appreciate your attempt!

1. Your question implies some inconsistency in the Creation Story – something like Days 1-3 are NOT 24 hour periods, Days 4-6 = 24 hour periods, Day 7 is NOT a 24 hour period (lack of evening/morning designation). Whoever thought that out, has a problem, I don’t, because of the following evidence:
   a. Genesis 1 v5 summarizes Day 1 with the words the first day
   b. Genesis 1 v8 summarizes Day 2 with the words the second day
   c. Genesis 1 v13 summarizes Day 3 with the words the third day
   d. Genesis 1 v19summarizes Day 4 with the words the fourth day
   e. Genesis 1 v23summarizes Day 5 with the words the fifth day
   f. Genesis 1 v31 summarizes Day 6 with the words the sixth day
   g. Genesis 2 v2 summarizes Day 7 with the words the seventh day (twice).
   In Biblical Hebrew, the word yom can be translated for various lengths of time, but when used in conjunction with a number (eg. Day 7), it ALWAYS MEANS 24 HOURS!

There is nothing in the wording you use above that explains a literal 24 hour period of time, espeically in since the sun and moon were not created until the 4th day, and it is the sun and moon which provide morning and eveing, day and night.

Thank you for the reference to the Hebrew word yom. I am not a student of the Hebrew language, but I do want to go and look into the usage of that word in the context of the creation story. I know some Hebrew language folks and I can check with them. Unless there is a Hebrew language expert reading this who can comment.

(cont’d on next post)

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

(cont’d from previous post)

h. Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Moses looks back 2500 years and tells the Creation Story as revealed to him. He simply says it took 7 literal days for God to complete the whole creation and bless and sanctify the Sabbath. He uses the common terms evening/morning and day to describe a day of 24 hours.

Again, there is no scriptural evidence that Moses said it took 7 literal days to create the world. He is addressing a Hebrew audience in explaining the creation of the world, but from the Bible alone, a literal 24 hour day period does not hold up to the record in Genesis chapters 1&2.

i. Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Moses looks back 2500 years at the same Creation Story and reminds the Israelites: Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labour and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it’’ Exodus 20:8-11. Moses did not say Surprise! Something New to do!’’; he simply says: REMEMBER!

Actually, didn’t God write the above passage with His finger, rather than Moses?

And this is a good lead into Question 2 of my 6 Questions, as to what does the sabbath at creation mean, since God commanded no one to keep it holy at the time He created it.

CONCLUSION: CREATION STORY IS OBVIOUSLY ABOUT 7 LITERAL DAYS, AND THE SABBATH IS A REMINDER OF CREATION WEEK. Any other conclusion is merely an attempt to pacify evolutionists or to negate the Sabbath in order to prove Sunday worship.

God bless once more,

Friedrich

What you have said does not obviously prove a literal 7 day creation week from the scripture record…only from your interpretation of it. And whether or not the creation story is literal or figurative does not change the lessons learned from it.

I agree that the sabbath as given to Moses in the 10 commandments was a reminder of the creation week, but more importantly a reminder of the Creator and what was intended for mankind at the creation before sin entered the world.

I do not believe in evolution, and I am not trying to negate the sabbath.

Thanks for sharing your answer to Question 1, but you have not proved from scripture the inconsistencies of a 24 hour literal 7 day creation. My questions don’t create those inconsistencies, but a literal interpretation of the creation story do.

I look forward to the answers for the remaining 5 questions which are more to the core of the discussion of this thread!

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Question #3 asked:

From the time of creation and for the next 10 plus generations of people on earth, why is there no mention of the sabbath until the time of Moses?

I answered it with several points:

Actually you didn’t answer Question 3…you asked more questions.

I asked who made the rule that the Bible had to state it explicitly? This question also applies to some of the others in your list of 6 questions.

I really don’t know who made that rule, but SDAs have been saying that worshipping God on Sunday is UN-Biblical because nowhere in the NT does God give a command to worship on Sunday.

But come to think of it, nowhere in the NT does God give a command to worship on Saturday…but that will be dealt with by the answers to my Questions 4,5,and 6. So I’ll wait for those answers until then!

SDAs keep saying that their beliefs are based on the scriptures of the Holy Bible and only the scriptures of the Holy Bible alone. So I am waiting for them/you to show me…actually to show all who are reading this thread.

I also supplied an example that indicates that they knew of the Sabbath before the Law was given at Sinai.

That example was from a book/story/paper that Dr. Jones wrote. I’m only asking for the Biblical scriptures that indicate this between the time of creation the time of Moses.

Thanks in advance if you are the person who will supply those scriptures from the Bible to support your Biblical scriptural belief.

So, now we can ask how much further back was it known? We can also ask if it really makes sense to institute for the Jews at Sinai a memorial to something that happened long before there ever was a Jew?

Do you care to deal with them or not?​

Great points Friedrich!

Of course I care to deal with them. In fact I would love to deal with them, which is why I asked my 6 Questions.

Go ahead and show me from the Bible scriptural support for your Bible only beliefs by answering my questions with scriptures from the Bible only!

God bless all!!!

 

[djconklin]

In the Artic, evening and morning, can be much longer than a 24 hour period, and a 24 hour period can be all daylight or all night time.

Even in the Artic they know what day it is when the “sunsets.”

God isn’t going to ask you a trick question on the judgment day about when it is sunset in the Artic, when you cross the date line what day is it, or in the jungles when you can’t see the sun at all what day is it? He’s only going to check if you kept the Sabbath out of love for Him where you were.

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
Question #3 asked:

From the time of creation and for the next 10 plus generations of people on earth, why is there no mention of the sabbath until the time of Moses?

I answered it with several points:

Actually you didn’t answer Question 3…you asked more questions.

I’m using the same biblical model of answering questions that Christ used. They would ask Him a question and sometimes He’d respond with questions of His own. They answered them–like who was good neighbor in the story of the Good Samaritan.

Originally Posted by djconklin
I asked who made the rule that the Bible had to state it explicitly? This question also applies to some of the others in your list of 6 questions.

I really don’t know who made that rule,

That’s because it is a common ad hocargument that is used in these discussions that has no foundation or support for it.

The Bible doesn’t have to state something explicitly in oprder for it to be true. The Bible doesn’t explicitly condemn slavery–but the slave owners certainly knew not to teach their slaves the Bible. The Bible doesn’t explicitly state that the Godhead is a Trinity, but it is a sound biblical doctrine. The Bible doesn’t use the word “monogamy,” but man should still not have more than one wife.

but SDAs have been saying that worshipping God on Sunday is UN-Biblical because nowhere in the NT does God give a command to worship on Sunday.

That is correct. There is no explicit command to keep Sunday, nor is there any text that says the Sabbath was abolished–and both should occur because one is being set aside, or “transferred” as some call it. What we do know is that as late as the 5th century most Christians were still keeping the Sabbath.

But come to think of it, nowhere in the NT does God give a command to worship on Saturday.

Lev. 23:3 the Sabbath is called a “holy convocation.”

Originally Posted by djconklin
I also supplied an example that indicates that they knew of the Sabbath before the Law was given at Sinai.

That example was from a book/story/paper that Dr. Jones wrote. I’m only asking for the Biblical scriptures that indicate this between the time of creation the time of Moses.

We use the information we have at hand. The critics of the Bible use that same argument. Dr. Jones showed that (since we believe in the Bible as the Word of God) that when the languages were created at the time of the Tower of Babel incident over 100 languages retained a knowledge of the Sabbath in their names for the seventh day of the week. This pre-dates the appearance of the 1st Jew by hundreds of years.

Originally Posted by djconklin
So, now we can ask how much further back was it known? We can also ask if it really makes sense to institute for the Jews at Sinai a memorial to something that happened long before there ever was a Jew?

Unanswered

 

[RobGentner]

Hi Protestant101, I really look forward to you sharing the discoveries of your research in answering my 6 questions!! I understand that it takes a while to get all that into written form. Thank you in advance for taking the time to write out your research and discoveries in answering my 6 questions!!

YEA RIGHT! That is what Prot 101 is waiting for Patrick!

---

** I recommend you starting a New thread “6 reasons to why saturday should be sabbath instead of sunday?” They aren’t doing so well on this thread and we are getting tired of waiting for their response.**

This is what Friedrich said, to which I responded. My other responses to what he says below are all back in the previous posts you’ve read regarding my comments.

***“Originally Posted by Friedrich ***
It seems that because you believe in Sunday worship (not found in the Bible), you (all Sunday worshipers) try to find some Bible support for an UN-Biblical doctrine – the result is to try and negate Sabbath in Eden till Moses, then dump the Sabbath as a Jewish day, then nail it to the cross, then prove that Christ never kept Sabbath, that the Day of the Lord = Sunday etc.”

---

***SABBATH means "day of Rest: in Hebrew not Day of WORSHIP! There is no scriptural basic fotr worshiping God on any day “per week” There are Jewish days that they went to temple, they were few and far between. Foolishness to make a cult based on demented people’s ideas. ***

I hope that clarifies for you why I wrote what I did.

That is why I look forward to your answers to my 6 questions!! This is the perfect opportunity for SDAs to provide the scpriptural evidence for your Biblical beliefs!!

That’s why I keep urging that we patiently await your responses to my 6 questions instead of continuing to argue back and forth. I don’t want your answers to my 6 questions to get lost in this thread any more than I want my 6 questions to get lost in this thread

**Losing patience here Patrick. The secoming may arrive before they attempt to answer. But they could make another version of the real bible to cover that. I heard they just “corrected” the KJV to support their beliefs I am trying to get one. I love fairy tales! **

P.S. Did you find my response to your posting of the official SDA position regarding the sabbath? I gave you page and post number in a previous post of mine. Let me know if you still need those citations for my reply to you…I think you should be able to find them alright!!

God bless all!!!

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I spent 3 years studying Col. 2:16-7. It is actually fairly complex.

There couldn’t have been a translation because there’s no Greek to support it. It is an interpretation that is unwarranted. That was only one point among the few I noted–which could be expanded further.

Translation not transliteralisation is what I thought we were discussing? Here’s the point; You claim to the Sabbath as a fundamental belief in your SDA theology. Paul from Col.2:16 Let no one, then, PASS JUDGEMENT ON YOU in (matters) of food and drink **OR ** with regard to a festival or new moon OR SABBATH.

The topic of discussion is Sabbath, not food and drink here. Why did Paul teach the Colossians Let no one pass judgement on you…or festival or new moon or Sabbath.

Can you give your 3 year examination of this passage, of why Paul states not to let SDA’s (no one) pass judgement on me in regards to the Sabbath? preferrably without linguistic loops and hoops to try and change the meaning of Pauls statement thank you. You do know that in the full context of this passage Paul is addressing “False Teachers” in regards to others judging the new converts about the Sabbath among other things.

I believe if one speak his faith on his own first without using hoops and loops has nothing to hide. If clarification is needed, then in good ediquette one can suffice, by using other sources if needed. I have not heard you profess your faith in Paul’s writing about his teaching of the Sabbath to the Colossians.

Peace

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Translation not transliteralisation is what I thought we were discussing? Here’s the point; You claim to the Sabbath as a fundamental belief in your SDA theology. Paul from Col.2:16 Let no one, then, PASS JUDGEMENT ON YOU in (matters) of food and drink **OR ** with regard to a festival or new moon OR SABBATH.

The topic of discussion is Sabbath, not food and drink here. Why did Paul teach the Colossians Let no one pass judgement on you…or festival or new moon or Sabbath.

Can you give your 3 year examination of this passage, of why Paul states not to let SDA’s (no one) pass judgement on me in regards to the Sabbath? preferrably without linguistic loops and hoops to try and change the meaning of Pauls statement thank you. You do know that in the full context of this passage Paul is addressing “False Teachers” in regards to others judging the new converts about the Sabbath among other things.

I believe if one speak his faith on his own first without using hoops and loops has nothing to hide. If clarification is needed, then in good ediquette one can suffice, by using other sources if needed. I have not heard you profess your faith in Paul’s writing about his teaching of the Sabbath to the Colossians.

Peace

**Are you inferring SDAs are like fruit loops? If so, great analogue!

Of their 27 Fundamental beliefs, numbr 19 is:

" The beneficent Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation. The fourth commandment of God’s unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God’s kingdom. The Sabbath is God’s perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God’s creative and redemptive acts. Support is found in these Bible passages: Genesis 2:1-3: Exodus 20:8-11: Luke 4:16: Isaiah 56:5,6: Isaiah 58:13,14: Matthew 12:1-12: Exodus 31:13-17: Ezekiel 20:12 and 20:20: Deuteronomy 5:12-15: Hebrews 4:1-11: Leviticus 23:32: Mark 1:32"

Know thy enemy and you can defeat Him. Holy water works on SDAs I believe! **

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I’m using the same biblical model of answering questions that Christ used. They would ask Him a question and sometimes He’d respond with questions of His own. They answered them–like who was good neighbor in the story of the Good Samaritan.

That’s because it is a common ad hocargument that is used in these discussions that has no foundation or support for it.

The Bible doesn’t have to state something explicitly in oprder for it to be true. The Bible doesn’t explicitly condemn slavery–but the slave owners certainly knew not to teach their slaves the Bible. The Bible doesn’t explicitly state that the Godhead is a Trinity, but it is a sound biblical doctrine. The Bible doesn’t use the word “monogamy,” but man should still not have more than one wife.

That is correct. There is no explicit command to keep Sunday, nor is there any text that says the Sabbath was abolished–and both should occur because one is being set aside, or “transferred” as some call it. What we do know is that as late as the 5th century most Christians were still keeping the Sabbath.

Lev. 23:3 the Sabbath is called a “holy convocation.”

We use the information we have at hand. The critics of the Bible use that same argument. Dr. Jones showed that (since we believe in the Bible as the Word of God) that when the languages were created at the time of the Tower of Babel incident over 100 languages retained a knowledge of the Sabbath in their names for the seventh day of the week. This pre-dates the appearance of the 1st Jew by hundreds of years.

Unanswered

Hi djconklin,

Well, as much as I appreciate you trying to answer Question 3 of my 6 Questions, you never provided any scriptural support that anywhere between the creation of the world and the time of Moses was the 7th day sabbath/saturday observed, or commanded by God to be observed. Since you haven’t answered Question 2 yet, I’m not sure what you think God commanded to Adam and Eve at creation, but I’ll wait and see what you think about that.

I take it that since you began to address Question 3 you most likely believe that the sabbath/saturday was observed between the time of creation and the time of Moses. And I assume that most likely you believe that to be a Biblical belief. But since you cannot provide any Biblical evidence to support that, if indeed you do believe that, well…you haven’t answered Question 3 with scriptures as I asked. So I’m left to conclude from your answer that that belief is UN-Biblical

So I will wait to hear what you have to say about the other 5 Questions if you chose to answer them.

So far Friedrich is the only one who has begun to answer the Questions…but then Friedrich is the only SDA who has ever answered my questions. And he answers others questions as well. And while I don’t necessarily agree with Friedrich’s answers, I take my hat off to him for his courage to tackle and address the questions posed to him!

Scriptural support for Question 3:
djconklin = 0

P.S. Oh yes, Lev.23:3 is in the OT not the NT which was my point…if you look at your response above.

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

YEA RIGHT! That is what Prot 101 is waiting for Patrick!

I recommend you starting a New thread “6 reasons to why saturday should be sabbath instead of sunday?” They aren’t doing so well on this thread and we are getting tired of waiting for their response.

Losing patience here Patrick. The secoming may arrive before they attempt to answer. But they could make another version of the real bible to cover that. I heard they just “corrected” the KJV to support their beliefs I am trying to get one. I love fairy tales!

Hey there RobGentner!

I understand how your patience is running low…I don’t know what to tell you, nor do I have any advice on how to stock that patience back up again.

I think it will be a little slow with Questions 1-3, but once they answer those three and move on to Questions 4-6 in the NT, hopefully the pace will pick up a bit.

In all fairness, Friedich provided an answer for Question 1. And while I don’t necessarily agree with all that he said, and I’m pretty sure you don’t agree with what he said…I think even you would acknowledge that Friedrich at least has the courage to put his answers “out there” for all to see and not dance around avoiding the questions.

Hopefully more SDAs will answer those questions with Biblical scriptures to support their Biblical beliefs.

If you want I could give you a call when/if the answers come in:shrug:

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

**Are you inferring SDAs are like fruit loops? If so, great analogue!

Of their 27 Fundamental beliefs, numbr 19 is:

" The beneficent Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation. The fourth commandment of God’s unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God’s kingdom. The Sabbath is God’s perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God’s creative and redemptive acts. Support is found in these Bible passages: Genesis 2:1-3: Exodus 20:8-11: Luke 4:16: Isaiah 56:5,6: Isaiah 58:13,14: Matthew 12:1-12: Exodus 31:13-17: Ezekiel 20:12 and 20:20: Deuteronomy 5:12-15: Hebrews 4:1-11: Leviticus 23:32: Mark 1:32"

Know thy enemy and you can defeat Him. Holy water works on SDAs I believe! **

Hi RealCatholicgk,

The above official SDA statement is what Protestant101 asked me what I thought about it. My answer got lost way back in this thread and since he keeps asking my about my thoughts on it, I’d just like to say once again that my thoughts on that statement are back on Page 30, Post #440 for him or anyone else interested in it.

God bless all!!!

 

[Marsha_Adams]

** Holy water works on SDAs I believe! **

So does garlic.

 

[djconklin]

Paul from Col.2:16 Let no one, then, PASS JUDGEMENT ON YOU in (matters) of food and drink OR with regard to a festival or new moon OR SABBATH.

More accurately according to the Greek: Col.2:16 Let no one judge you on eating and drinking either WITH REGARD TO the feasts or new moon or sabbaths.

1. It’s not what you eat or drink that is in view here. The ascetics who were doing the judging could have cared less about that. It was the fact that they were eating at all that bothered them–the 1st clue is that there aren’t any drink laws so how could anyone judge them about that? They (the ascetics) claimed that if you wanted to come closer to God you’d have to deny the body–note that a little later Paul says “Touch not, etc.” parroting what these false teachers were saying.
2. Note that words “with regard to”–do you know about Venn diagrams? If not, think of overlapping circles. One circle represents eating and drinking, the second represents the days. This verse is talking about the overlap–that’s why the Greek “*n/]” in front of “en merei” (with regard to–or more literally: in that portion of) should be translated as “either”.

All of this is clearly explained in great detail, with scholarly sources showing the support for it in the web page I pointed to previously: 666man.net//Colossians_2_16-17_By_David_Conklin/colintro.html*