R
- Status
R
Realcatholicgk
Guest
****Hi Pat, reasonable request reasonable questions. I await the answers
Vivat Jesu’****
P
Protestant101
Guest
Howdy Patrick! I hope this note finds you well, and happy in Jesus!
You are right - it is a bit hard to follow all that is taking place in this thread; but I will try to stick to where I think we have left off.
I hope this is the right thread- is this the one where we began some studies/questions in Genesis, and how it may relate to the Sabbath?
I recall asking you about the official Adventist belief regarding the Sabbath, and what you thought of it. I don’t mean to pester, but if you answered this question of mine somewhere, can you please tell me where? I would love to see your views on that official belief, and I am still considering answers to your questions re Genesis, I have copied them all; and as soon as time permits; I will address them one by one.
Thanks my brother IN CHRIST.
F
Friedrich
Guest
Dear HappilyCatholic
Thanks for the positive, happy reply I got from you. Obviously we see things very differently, so sorry if we sometimes talk at cross-purposes…
I need to clarify/summarize from my limited perspective on Catholic teachings what limits our communication:
I believe there are many Catholics who TRULY believe in the Bible/10 commandments as more important than tradition, and when they discover that many Catholic doctrines are based more on tradition than the Bible (please don’t think I’m being funny, just an observation), they become SDA because the Bible = more NB than Tradition to them…
A last observation: there needs to be a whole new thread on this topic, but you said:
Closing verse:
Can you imagine eternal hell fire carrying on outside the city while there will be no more death or mourning or crying or PAIN ?
Doesn’t seem likely…
God bless, and thanks for making me think about these wonderful truths from God’s Word,
Friedrich
Thanks for the positive, happy reply I got from you. Obviously we see things very differently, so sorry if we sometimes talk at cross-purposes…
I need to clarify/summarize from my limited perspective on Catholic teachings what limits our communication:
- SDA’s believe in the Bible alone (will not go into Ellen White as prophet etc. now, except to say that the Bible = much greater than any prophet!),
- and Catholics (my perspective from this forum!) actually believe in Tradition firstly, but still love the Bible, even though it is superseded by Tradition. (tell me if I am wrong…)
I believe there are many Catholics who TRULY believe in the Bible/10 commandments as more important than tradition, and when they discover that many Catholic doctrines are based more on tradition than the Bible (please don’t think I’m being funny, just an observation), they become SDA because the Bible = more NB than Tradition to them…
A last observation: there needs to be a whole new thread on this topic, but you said:
This makes me realize that we are talking from different poles…
- It seems that because you believe in Sunday worship (not found in the Bible), you (all Sunday worshipers) try to find some Bible support for an UN-Biblical doctrine – the result is to try and negate Sabbath in Eden till Moses, then dump the Sabbath as a Jewish day, then nail it to the cross, then prove that Christ never kept Sabbath, that the Day of the Lord = Sunday etc.
- The same goes for the soul – you believe UN-Biblically that the soul is immortal (find me a few verses in the Bible that prove this – there aren’t any – this is an old pagan idea that crept into Jewish thinking, and the Christian church as well. I will give you a separate posting very briefly to show that in the Bible animals as well as humans have souls; souls can live and die; the dead know nothing.)
Closing verse:
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, Now the dwlling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.’’ Revelation 21:1-4Can you imagine eternal hell fire carrying on outside the city while there will be no more death or mourning or crying or PAIN ?
Doesn’t seem likely…
God bless, and thanks for making me think about these wonderful truths from God’s Word,
Friedrich
F
Friedrich
Guest
Dear Patrick,
You have really asked some heavy questions, and I spent 2 hours this morning thinking about them – still don’t claim to have all the answers, but will give you my thoughts on paper…
Please first read what I just said to HappilyCatholic – I suspect you are asking these questions in order to disprove the Biblical Sabbath, so that you have an excuse to keep the UN-Biblical Sunday – if you believe what your Catholic theologians said on these topics –
www. biblelight.net/chalng.htm, then why bother to ask the questions you want me to answer – they already did a brilliant job!
Rather just say it up front: As a Catholic I believe in Sunday worship in honour of the Resurrection of Christ, NOT because the Bible says so, but because my church says so. Once we have that clarified, then we can discuss your questions to ascertain what SDA’s think (I am NOT an SDA authority, merely a Bible loving SDA…) about these topics without ulterior motives…
God bless,
Friedrich
You have really asked some heavy questions, and I spent 2 hours this morning thinking about them – still don’t claim to have all the answers, but will give you my thoughts on paper…
Please first read what I just said to HappilyCatholic – I suspect you are asking these questions in order to disprove the Biblical Sabbath, so that you have an excuse to keep the UN-Biblical Sunday – if you believe what your Catholic theologians said on these topics –
www. biblelight.net/chalng.htm, then why bother to ask the questions you want me to answer – they already did a brilliant job!
Rather just say it up front: As a Catholic I believe in Sunday worship in honour of the Resurrection of Christ, NOT because the Bible says so, but because my church says so. Once we have that clarified, then we can discuss your questions to ascertain what SDA’s think (I am NOT an SDA authority, merely a Bible loving SDA…) about these topics without ulterior motives…
God bless,
Friedrich
P
Patrick_Murebil
Guest
Hi Protestant101, Yes things are going well, I’m quite happy in Jesus, and He continues to bless!! I hope you and yours are doing well too!!!Howdy Patrick! I hope this note finds you well, and happy in Jesus!
You are right - it is a bit hard to follow all that is taking place in this thread; but I will try to stick to where I think we have left off.
I hope this is the right thread- is this the one where we began some studies/questions in Genesis, and how it may relate to the Sabbath?
I recall asking you about the official Adventist belief regarding the Sabbath, and what you thought of it. I don’t mean to pester, but if you answered this question of mine somewhere, can you please tell me where? I would love to see your views on that official belief, and I am still considering answers to your questions re Genesis, I have copied them all; and as soon as time permits; I will address them one by one.
Thanks my brother IN CHRIST.
LOL…yes we did begin talking about Genesis verse by verse, but I think we’re officially off of that now…LOL It got lost way back there…but that’s ok! It would probably be better if we sat down together over some veggie burgers and “near beers” and just talked:thumbsup: If that wouldn’t be better, it most certainly would be easier!
I’ve kept trying to tell you where I answered your question regarding the official SDA statement regarding the sabbath, but I do not blame you at all for missing it…this thread moves fast at times.
My response to you regarding this is back on page 30 of this thread in Post # 440. On that same page in Post #s 437&438 are some of my clarifications and replies to Friedrich.
Please take your time with my 6 questions above, but please don’t forget about them. I really would like to see the scriptural answers to them because I have been unable to answer those questions from scripture according to SDA positions on them.
Thanks in advance for taking the time to research and provide answers to them!!!
God bless all!!!
H
happilycatholic
Guest
Yes, you are quite right. It seems we’re at an empass on the matter, but at least now I know the reason for it.
But I hope that doesn’t mean we can’t have a good bit of conversation from time to time.
D
djconklin
Guest
Would you mind telling us which translation this from?
- there’s no Greek support for the word “matters.”
- the Greek “en brosei kai en posei” should be translated as “in eating and in drinking.” brosei and posei are active nouns.
- there’s no Greek support for the wording “reality belongs to”–it is “the body of.”
D
djconklin
Guest
Why should it be mentioned?
When the langauages were made at the Tower of Babel over 100 of them retained a knowledge of the Sabbath in their name for the seventh day of the week. See the work by Dr. William Mead Jones on this. I found two more (thanks to the web) that he didn’t know about.
Note also that the Sabbath was kept a month before the law was given at Sinai.
P
Patrick_Murebil
Guest
Hi Friedrich, I don’t know if my 6 questions are heavy or not, but they do ask that SDAs provide scripture answers to them since SDAs claim the Bible only as the source for all that you believe. Having been a SDA I know what SDAs believe. And at the beginning of our dialog regarding the sabbath, starting with the creation story, on page 16 Post # 229 in this thread, I summarized SDA and Catholic beliefs about the sabbath. On the same page in **Post # 230 **and Post # 231, both Protestant101 and you, respectively, said that I accurately stated SDA beliefs.
So I ask the 6 questions above to all SDAs, to show from the scriptures alone, how they arrive at the conclusions of belief which are reflected by those questions.
If the beliefs held by SDAs, such as:
- a literal 24 hour day in the 7 days of creation,
- a binding 7th day sabbath/saturday from creation through the 2nd comimg,
- the sabbath/saturday taught as binding on all Christians, by Jesus and the Apostles,
- the sabbath/saturday, out of all the 10 commandments, will be a special test of loyalty and fidelity to God in the last days,
are totally and completely scriptural and Biblical, then the Bible scriptures should clearly show these beliefs without UN-Biblical “enhancements”, “traditions”, “sources”, “writers”, or anything other than the Bible itself.
I read your post to HappilyCatholic above which follows in red:
First I would like to clarify that I do not “believe in Sunday worship” as you state above, nor do I consider my self to be a member of a group of “Sunday worshippers” as you state above.
I worship God, the Trinitarian God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
I do not worship a day…not any day. I can see why you would be so upset if you believe we are Day worshipers…that would be wrong, no matter which day is being worshipped.
Also, I do not not negate the sabbath at creation, nor throughout the Old Testament, nor in the New Testament, and I know full well the Jesus “kept” the sabbath as was his custom. I cannot, nor have I ever tried to disprove any of that. It’s in the Bible.
I now do, in my life, rest and worship God in Church on Sunday, but my worship is centered upon communion with my Saviour and His Body, His Bride, His Church. My worship is not about the importance of a day, it is about the importantace of what God has acheived in forgiving my sins and giving me eternal life as long I remain In Him!!!
I have to admit that the articles you linked to were very interesting and they did a good job writing those articles. I’ve read more brilliant works by Catholic theologians than those articles, but they were good. But there is no name associated with who wrote those articles, so I don’t know if the author/s were theologians or not.
I’m asking you (and all other SDAs who care to contribute to the answers) for the answers to my 6 questions, because it is you and SDAs who continue to claim that the answers to those questions, those beliefs they reflect, are based on scripture and scripture alone…The Bible Only!
Well, I can’t for the life of me find those scriptures that answer those questions and support these very important and core beliefs of SDAs. So I’m hoping you and all the others can!
Again, I do not believe in Sunday worship…I believe in God worship. I worship God in Church on Sunday because from the time of the Book of Acts, through the first century and on, the Church met on Sunday. I like to worship God every day that I can…sometimes that is in prayer, and sometimes I go to Church during days of the week other than Sunday when I can.
Are these points clarified enough that you can now show us all from the scriptures and the scriptures only, the SDA answers to my 6 questions? I understand that you are not an SDA authority…believe me, I am not a Catholic authority, merely a Jesus loving, Bible loving, Tradition loving, soon-to-be Catholic!!
I have no alterior motives…just show us from the Bible where you get your Bible only beliefs!!
I hope these 6 questions don’t get lost in these continuing posts…because these are the only 6 questions I have.
God bless all!!!
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
The Translation comes from the NAB. Heres the commentary to it;
2 [4-23] In face of the threat posed by false teachers (Col 2:4), the Colossians are admonished to adhere to the gospel as it was first preached to them (Col 2:6), steeping themselves in it with grateful hearts (Col 2:7). They must reject religious teachings originating in any source except the gospel (Col 2:8) because in Christ alone will they have access to God, the deity (Col 2:9). So fully has Christ enlightened them that they need no other source of religious knowledge or virtue (Col 2:10). They do not require circumcision (Col 2:11), for in baptism their whole being has been affected by Christ (Col 2:12) through forgiveness of sin and resurrection to a new life (Col 2:13; cf Col 3:1 and Romans 6:1-11). On the cross Christ canceled the record of the debt that stood against us with all its claims (Col 2:14), i.e., he eliminated the law (cf Eph 2:15) that human beings could not observe–and that could not save them. He forgave sins against the law (Col 2:14) and exposed as false and misleading (Col 2:15) all other powers (cf Col 1:16) that purport to offer salvation. Therefore, the Colossians are not to accept judgments from such teachers on food and drink or to keep certain religious festivals or engage in certain cultic practices (Col 2:16), for the Colossians would thereby risk severing themselves from Christ (Col 2:19). If, when they accepted the gospel, they believed in Christ as their savior, they must be convinced that their salvation cannot be achieved by appeasing ruling spirits through dietary practices or through a wisdom gained simply by means of harsh asceticism (Col 2:20-23).
[16] Festival or new moon or sabbath: yearly, monthly, and weekly observances determined by religious powers associated with a calendar set by the heavenly bodies, sun, moon, and stars (cf Col 2:8).
9 [18] Ascetic practices encouraged by the false teachers included subjection of self humbly to their rules, worship of angels, and cultivation of visions, though exact details are unclear.
Here’s a Douay-Rheims bible followed by a commentary to Col.2:16
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink, or in respect of a festival day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbaths, 17 Which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man seduce you, willing in humility, and religion of angels, walking in the things which he hath not seen, in vain puffed up by the sense of his flesh, 19 And not holding the head, from which the whole body, by joints and bands, being supplied with nourishment and compacted, groweth unto the increase of God. 20 If then you be dead with Christ from the elements of this world, why do you yet decree as though living in the world?
commentary;
16 “In meat”… He means with regard to the Jewish observations of the distinction of clean and unclean meats; and of their festivals, new moons, and sabbaths, as being no longer obligatory.
18 “Willing”… That is, by a self willed, self invented, superstitious worship, falsely pretending humility, but really proceeding from pride. Such was the worship, that many of the philosophers (against whom St. Paul speaks, ver. 8) paid to angels or demons, by sacrificing to them, as carriers of intelligence betwixt God and men; pretending humility in so doing, as if God was too great to be addressed by men; and setting aside the mediatorship of Jesus Christ, who is the head both of angels and men. Such also was the worship paid by the ancient heretics, disciples of Simon and Menander, to the angels, whom they believed to be makers and lords of this lower world. This is certain, that they whom the apostle here condemns, did not hold the head, (ver. 19,) that is, Jesus Christ, and his mediatorship; and therefore what he writes here no way touches the Catholic doctrine and practice, of desiring our good angels to pray to God for us, through Jesus Christ. St. Jerome [Epist. ad Algas.] understands by the religion or service of angels, the Jewish teachers, who sought to subject the new Christians to the observance of the Mosaic law
21 Touch not, taste not, handle not: 22 Which all are unto destruction by the very use, according to the precepts and doctrines of men. 23 Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in superstition and humility, and not sparing the body; not in any honour to the filling of the flesh.
21 “Touch not”… The meaning is, that Christians should not subject themselves, either to the ordinances of the old law, forbidding touching or tasting things unclean; or to the superstitious invention of heretics, imposing such restraints, under pretence of wisdom, humility, or mortification.
D
djconklin
Guest
Note that it skipped the bit about drink because there were no laws about unclean drink(s). That’s your clue that Paul isn’t talking about unclean meat or drink–it is the act of eating and drinking on the days that are then mentioned–all of this is explained in the web pages I previously noted.
The theology of the book is the all-sufficiency of christ. It appears that the believers at Colossae were being judged for their eating and drinking (as the case may be) on the feast days. These outsiders were ascetic Jews with other syncernistic views who were telling the believers that if they wanted a closer connection with God then they should fast on those days. All of this is explained in greater detail (with sources provided) in the web site I noted.
P
Patrick_Murebil
Guest
Hi djconklin,
I appreciate your thoughts on Question 3 of the 6 questions I posed to the SDAs. I am not familiar with Dr. Jones’ work on this, but it sounds like an interesting story to further the idea that the sabbath was binding on people during that time period.
However, I asked the SDAs who make the same claim that you are apparently making, that the sabbath was kept during the period from creation to Moses, for scriptures from the Bible and only scriptures from the Bible that support that view.
I asked them this since they have made that claim over and over, and continue to insist it is a Biblical belief based only on the scriptures in the Bible.
Since, I cannot find the scriptures in the Bible where God commands people to keep holy the 7th day sabbath/saturday, from the time of creation to the time of Moses, please share those scriptures from the Bible and the Bible only that support the claim that it is a Biblical and Biblical only teaching.
I am familiar with the various stories that have been created to support that belief, but the claims have always been that those beliefs are Biblical and scriptural…unlike the UN-Biblical beliefs and “man-made traditions” of non-SDAs on this matter.
So all I’m asking is for the scriptures and the scriptures only, from the Bible and the Bible only that support their beliefs. If their beliefs truely are from the scriptures and the scriptures only…the Bible only…then supplying those scriptures should be easy.
The various man made/woman made stories should not be needed to prove beliefs that are from the Bible and the Bible alone.
Thank you in advance for taking the concern to look at these questions!! I really hope these 6 questions don’t get ignored…they seem very basic regarding the SDA sabbath doctrine and span the entire Bible.
God bless all!!!
D
djconklin
Guest
- Adventists have never claimed that the Bible explicitly states that the patriarchs kept the Sabbath.
- I asked who made the rule that the Bible had to state it explicitly? This question also applies to some of the others in your list of 6 questions.
- I also supplied an example that indicates that they knew of the Sabbath before the Law was given at Sinai. So, now we can ask how much further back was it known? We can also ask if it really makes sense to institute for the Jews at Sinai a memorial to something that happened long before there ever was a Jew?
P
Patrick_Murebil
Guest
Well over and over SDAs have said that God made the sabbath/saturday at creation and that it has been observed at creation before the fall, after the fall, through the OT, the NT, and into eternity after the 2nd comimg.
SDAs say over and over that these beliefs are Bible and Bible ONLY beliefs. Ok…where in the Bible are these beliefs supported. Beginning with one of my 6 questions regarding creation, there is no command from God to Adam and Eve to keep the sabbath holy.
SDAs say that God wanted Adam and Eve to keep holy the sabbath/saturday, and that it is a Biblical belief…OhhhKayy…where in the Bible does it say that? No where in the first verses of Genesis chapter 2 that I read. So where??
The other 5 of my 6 questions, ask for scriptural evidence for beliefs that are claimed to be Biblical from the Bible only. OhhKayy…where are those scriptures?
As for your example…that may prove something to you…but where in the Bible from the scriptures is that belief supported? You merely show that you accept “man’s” study and interpretation of a belief you hold dear…but it is just that…a man’s interpretation. Where are the scriptures for that belief?
And if you believe that it is ok to go outside of the Bible to understand the Bible, then please forgive me. I don’t know you or your beliefs, you may not be a SDA, you may not be a protestant who believes in the Bible and the Bible only…I don’t know you.
I’m not the one making the claim that my SDA beliefs are based on the Bible and the Bible only.
So perhaps my 6 questions to SDAs are of no concern to you…you may not believe those doctrines.
God bless all!!!
D
djconklin
Guest
See my number 1 which explicitly answers your original question.
See my numbers 2 & 3.
See my number 2.
See my number 2. OhhKayy?
What belief? It is a fact that the Sabbath was celebrated a month before Sinai.
I cited a study; I said nothing about holding it “dear.” Facts are not an interpretation. For instance, what is the Spanish word for the seventh day of the week? Sabado. Guess where that came from?
Song of Solomon 2:12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;
The Bible critics use this verse to show how stupid the writers of the Bible were. If, however, one uses a modicum of common sense and look up the meaning of the Hebrew words in a lexicon (outside the Bible) then one can find that the word turtle here refers to the turtle dove. Further, if one uses the OED (also outside the Bible) one can find that the word “turtle” was used as a metaphor for turtle dove for about 50 years prior to, and after, the time the KJV was written.
For doctrine one should only use the Bible. But to understand the setting, etc. then it is permissable to use such things as dictionaries, lexicons, maps, geography, geology, archaeology, etc…
P
Protestant101
Guest
Patrick; this note is for you. I am happy to discover as I research that everything Adventists officially claim is in the Bible - but it will be a bit before I write in detail on that.
What I wanted to comment on briefly here is how you have repeatedly stated in the last few posts how you do not “worship a day;” and that you only “worship the Trinity,” or words to that effect. First; I don’t think anyone has said that you, or Catholics in general, “worship a day.” Where do Adventists officially say this? I would like to know that detail that you have several times claimed here.
I don’t think that Catholics in general; including you, really understand what Adventists actually do claim about either Sunday or the Sabbath. As I review the many pages of this thread; that is one thing I see emerging as a point that we can move forward on. I will be back asap. Take care, and take prayer…
What I wanted to comment on briefly here is how you have repeatedly stated in the last few posts how you do not “worship a day;” and that you only “worship the Trinity,” or words to that effect. First; I don’t think anyone has said that you, or Catholics in general, “worship a day.” Where do Adventists officially say this? I would like to know that detail that you have several times claimed here.
I don’t think that Catholics in general; including you, really understand what Adventists actually do claim about either Sunday or the Sabbath. As I review the many pages of this thread; that is one thing I see emerging as a point that we can move forward on. I will be back asap. Take care, and take prayer…
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Gabriel of 12;
“Frankly” the bible has already been translated to our language. Are you telling me other resources are going to tell me Paul a learned Jew, who saw the Glorified Christ, doesnt know what he is talking about?
True there are times for scholary purposes and study one can refer to outside commentaries and is needed for clarification, but I dont think this passage teaching deserves such scrutiny. I find that you picked one word from translation (matters) that helps the English speaking community to arrive at Paul’s meaning. And then contest the scholary translation. Disputing greek, latin, to english does not change the subject taught by Paul in either language. Have you considered the other scriptures I provided, pertaining to another gospel being introduced as evil and a warning from Paul?
Peace
M
Marsha_Adams
Guest
Well, yesterday my uncle’s funeral services were held. So now I have returned to this most energetic thread. It has been a few days and many many pages of postings since I was here last. So instead of going back and reading all that I missed, I’ll just jump in at this point.
Let the games begin, and the fur fly!
Marsha
Let the games begin, and the fur fly!
Marsha
P
Patrick_Murebil
Guest
Hi djconklin,
Let’s stay focused on my 6 questions, and, if possible, please provide the scriptures that support the beliefs reflected in those questions…if you want to. If not that is ok, because there are SDAs who are working on providing their answers from the Bible for the beliefs about which my 6 questions inquire.
God bless all!!!
- Status