why is sunday instead of saturday the sabboth?

[Gabriel_of_12]

Here we have in the old covenant hidden away is the new covenant in the sacrificial flesh and blood, including a libation with bread sacrifice unto God. It is here that God reveals himself to his people on Sunday, the eighth day. Notice how God consumes the sacrifice, a prefigurement of the ascension of Jesus Christ sacrifice being accepted by God to redeem man unto himself on a new creation week the Sunday the eighth day:

Leviticus
Chapter 9
1
**On the eighth day **Moses summoned Aaron and his sons, together with the elders of Israel,
2
and said to Aaron, “Take a calf for a sin offering and a ram for a holocaust, both without blemish, and offer them before the LORD.
3
Tell the elders of Israel, too: Take a he-goat for a sin offering, a calf and a lamb, both unblemished yearlings, for a holocaust,
4
and an ox and a ram for a peace offering, to sacrifice them before the LORD, along with a cereal offering mixed with oil; for today the LORD will reveal himself to you.”
5
So they brought what Moses had ordered. When the whole community had come forward and stood before the LORD,
6
**Moses said, “This is what the LORD orders you to do, that the glory of the LORD may be revealed to you. **
7
Come up to the altar,” Moses then told Aaron, “and offer your sin offering and your holocaust in atonement for yourself and for your family; then present the offering of the people in atonement for them, as the LORD has commanded.”
8
Going up to the altar, Aaron first slaughtered the calf that was his own sin offering.
9
When his sons presented the blood to him, he dipped his finger in the blood and put it on the horns of the altar. The rest of the blood he poured out at the base of the altar.
10
He then burned on the altar the fat, the kidneys and the lobe of the liver that were taken from the sin offering, as the LORD had commanded Moses;
11
but the flesh and the hide he burned up in the fire outside the camp.
12
Then Aaron slaughtered his holocaust. When his sons brought him the blood, he splashed it on all sides of the altar.
13
They then brought him the pieces and the head of the holocaust, and he burned them on the altar.
14
Having washed the inner organs and the shanks, he burned these also with the holocaust on the altar.
15
Thereupon he had the people’s offering brought up. Taking the goat that was for the people’s sin offering, he slaughtered it and offered it up for sin as before.
16
Then he brought forward the holocaust, other than the morning holocaust, and offered it in the usual manner.
17
He then presented the cereal offering; taking a handful of it, he burned it on the altar.
18
Finally he slaughtered the ox and the ram, the peace offering of the people. When his sons brought him the blood, Aaron splashed it on all sides of the altar.
19
The portions of fat from the ox and from the ram, the fatty tail, the fatty membrane over the inner organs, the two kidneys, with the fat that is on them, and the lobe of the liver,
20
he placed on top of the breasts and burned them on the altar,
21
having first waved the breasts and the right legs as a wave offering before the LORD, in keeping with the LORD’S command to Moses.
22
Aaron then raised his hands over the people and blessed them. When he came down from offering the sin offering and holocaust and peace offering,
23
Moses and Aaron went into the meeting tent. On coming out they again blessed the people. **Then the glory of the LORD was revealed to all the people. **
24
Fire came forth from the LORD’S presence and consumed the holocaust and the remnants of the fat on the altar. Seeing this, all the people cried out and fell prostrate.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

So you are denying the validity of other official Catholic writings which would support my statements even clearer than the Catechism? I guess I will have to show you next post what your own church’s writings say. You appear to be avoiding this by smearing my character and intent here; so you leave me with no choice. The Catechism fully supports the other Catholic wiritings as they relate to this subject of how the Sabbath was changed, and by who. Your own church admits it; I am not sure why you are fighting it so. Can you tell us?

I am not doing what you suppose I am doing. Simply put The Catholic church does not use the word “change” as the way SDA’s teach it does as if, the Catholic church is breaking a commandment.

For me christianity is not a mending or adjusting of the old suit of Judaism. The redemption Jesus gave me is a total (Baptism) re-generation from the old covenant sabbath which those in Jesus christ; the sabbath no longer applies, and this was taught to the first century Jews, who converted to Christianity.

Man cannot keep the covenant commandments by himself. I cannot pretend to keep the old covenant sabbath law, to do so is to deny why Jesus suffered, died and resurrected on Sunday. Hypothetically speaking; if Jesus did not pay the penalty of law for my sins, I still would not be able to keep the Sabbath. for one I am not Jewish, and two there is no more temple. For those who are in the kingdom of God; there exists no more Jews or Gentiles.

If I were to submit to the saturday (Sabbath) only, I would be decieving myself and God, because I could not keep the precepts of the Law that pertain to the old covenant Sabbath. To remain outside the “day of the Lord” and try to keep the old covenant Sabbath, would make me a “lukewarm” christian and Jesus would spew me out of his mouth, because I would be holding to Laws that he paid the price to redeem me from.

Besides the apostles of Jesus teach us that we are set free from the precepts of the natural Law, for the Law only pertains to the flesh, Christians are of the Spirit and the Law cannot judge the Spirit.

This practice of the Sabbath day rest practiced by Christians was never heard of until the Adventist movement in the late 1800 years later after the resurrection.

So I could not be a witness to the SDA sabbath, as far as an apologists I agree with you I am not one, nor do I claim to be one. I hope to never win an argument, as long as the Truth be told. I am just Gabriel (strength of God) of 12.

Peace be with you

 

[peary]

Originally Posted by **Protestant101 **
You have been trying to deny that the Catholic Church has changed the day of worship. Who did this “replacement?”

**It’s all in the Bible -

Isaiah 1:13 - God begins to reveal His displeasure with the Sabbath.

Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2,9; John 20:1,19- the Gospel writers purposely reveal Jesus’ resurrection and appearances were on Sunday. This is because Sunday had now become the most important day in the life of the Church.

Acts 20:7 - this text shows the apostolic tradition of gathering together to celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday, the “first day of the week.” Luke documents the principle worship was on Sunday because this was one of the departures from the Jewish form of worship.

1 Cor. 16:2 - Paul instructs the Corinthians to make contributions to the churches “on the first day of the week,” which is Sunday. This is because the primary day of Christian worship is Sunday.

Col. 2:16-17 - Paul teaches that the Sabbath was only a shadow of what was fulfilled in Christ, and says “let no one pass judgment any more over a Sabbath.”

2 Thess. 2:15 - we are to hold fast to apostolic tradition, whether it is oral or written. The 2,000 year-old tradition of the Church is that the apostles changed the Sabbath day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

Heb. 4:8-9 - regarding the day of rest, if Joshua had given rest, God would not later speak of “another day,” which is Sunday, the new Sabbath. Sunday is the first day of the week and the first day of the new creation brought about by our Lord’s resurrection, which was on Sunday.

Heb. 7:12 - when there is a change in the priesthood, there is a change in the law as well. Because we have a new Priest and a new sacrifice, we also have a new day of worship, which is Sunday.

Rev 1:10 - John specifically points out that he witnesses the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, the Lord’s day, the new day of rest in Christ.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - whatever the Church binds on earth is bound in heaven. Since the resurrection, Mass has been principally celebrated on Sunday.

And just some more to think about:

“On the Lord’s own day [first day of the week], assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks, but first confess your sins so that your sacrifice may be pure.” *Didache, 14 (A.D. 90). *[only 57 years after the Resurrection and Ascension of Our Lord]

“If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death–whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master.” Ignatius*, To the Magnesians, 9:1 (A.D. 110). [only 77 years after the Resurrection and Ascension of Our Lord].*

There’s no denying the fact that the Church, invested with the power of God, had the authority to change the Sabbath.

 

[Protestant101]

I am not doing what you suppose I am doing. Simply put The Catholic church does not use the word “change” as the way SDA’s teach it does as if, the Catholic church is breaking a commandment.

You can argue all you want about the semantics being used here; you don’t want to call it “change;” fine, but neither do SDAs falsely accuse Catholics on this point. Those who understand the issues, actually do not so much say that Catholics use the word “change”; as much as what Catholics have done with the seventh-day Sabbath amounts to a change. The actions of Catholic leadership does amount to a change in the original Biblical order of things, and I am not sure how you can deny this. If you go around teaching people that they no longer have to do a certain thing they once did, then you have changed it.

You are also denying the reality of what your own church says, in other official writings - which you would love to detract from by arguing specious semantics about how it is worded only in the CCC. Nice try; but one doesn’t have to even be an Adventist to see the reality of this.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

You can argue all you want about the semantics being used here; you don’t want to call it “change;” fine, but neither do SDAs falsely accuse Catholics on this point. Those who understand the issues, actually do not so much say that Catholics use the word “change”; as much as what Catholics have done with the seventh-day Sabbath amounts to a change. The actions of Catholic leadership does amount to a change in the original Biblical order of things, and I am not sure how you can deny this. If you go around teaching people that they no longer have to do a certain thing they once did, then you have changed it.

You are also denying the reality of what your own church says, in other official writings - which you would love to detract from by arguing specious semantics about how it is worded only in the CCC. Nice try; but one doesn’t have to even be an Adventist to see the reality of this.

You are mistaken; I have not explained or revealed what the Catholic church teaches about the Sabbath, I only introduced it. I have been contesting your incorrect statement about what the Catechism states. Instead of admitting your false statement, you move on to other official teachings to support your “change” claim, to which you still have not provided proof. I try to remain steady on this, but you continue to move away from the facts.

I believe the difference in understanding this concept of the Sabbath is Jesus. SDA claim to a belief in the sabbath before the coming of Jesus. What the Catholic church believes that Jesus sufficed the Law and the prophets of old. The regeneration has taken affect in the New and everlasting covenant. This is the point of difference, redeemed humanity has been removed from the (natural law of the flesh) law and its curses, Into the new covenant of Jesus Christ (in the Spirit) built on better promises.

To be redeemed is to be saved. And for the redemption to take place takes a “replacement” or “Change” of the high priesthood in Jesus Christ. Whenever there is a (Jesus replaced the priesthood of old)“change” in the priesthood their is a new covenant. IT is by the act of God that this new creation has come.

To lay claim to a sabbath that is not your own (SDA), for this belonged to the Hebrew, Jews and of the Old Covenant, Christians were never in the picture to this sabbath. That is why St. Paul makes it clear in scripture, not to be condemned (judged) about a sabbath", For we are now in Jesus Christ, for those of the Spirit can not be judged by the law. Yet you continue to make it your religion to claim to a sabbath, when New Testament scripture clearly teaches against your teachings of the sabbath, not the old covenant teachings, let me be clear here.

Yes; the catholic church does not excercise the old covenant sabbath practices, because we are under the high priesthood of Jesus Christ. The Church only excercises what Jesus commanded of her. She does not change or add anything else to what Jesus has endowed her with. Quite frankly, SDA’s never have or never will practice the sabbath according to scripture and the law. Except have a bible teaching on Saturday? this is not honoring the Sabbath according to the prescriptions of the law, to which SDA’s claim to follow the law.

I have, heard many times over and over, SDA’s condemn the Catholic church for “changing” the sabbath to sunday. You stated the Catechism of the catholic church uses the word “change”, I disagreed with you and so does the catechism of the catholic church. To any Roman Catholic, the catechism ranks higher to any other official statements you may possess that refers to a “change” next to the bible as far as instruction of the faith. So to continue to make your claim about some official church teaching, you cant get any higher outside the bible other than the Catechism to which you falsely misquoted.

I dont claim to know your faith, what I do know is what I have heard the leadership of SDA’s teach. And you sound just like them, but now are making slight twists to your teachings, as you find out more about the true teachings of the Catholic church, and they are not at all, what SDA’s claim the Catholic church teaches.

You know I can understand you sticking to your false idea about the “change of the sabbath”. Because without this charge you make against other christians , your SDA church would fall apart, this is what brings in your attendance. when it should be the Love and mercy of God. Not your twisting of christilogical and hebrew biblical interpretations to impress the mind, especially of the sheep of God, who you so cleverly convince by twisting the scriptures are whisked up by your wind of doctrine. Honesty and truth is all I ask here.

Peace be with you

 

[Protestant101]

I dont claim to know your faith, what I do know is what I have heard the leadership of SDA’s teach. And you sound just like them, but now are making slight twists to your teachings, as you find out more about the true teachings of the Catholic church, and they are not at all, what SDA’s claim the Catholic church teaches.

You know I can understand you sticking to your false idea about the “change of the sabbath”. Because without this charge you make against other christians , your SDA church would fall apart, this is what brings in your attendance.

Honesty and truth is all I ask here. Peace be with you

OK; you still want to dicker about your specious semantics of my reference to the word “change;” and I am tired of so called Catholics calling me “dishonest” and the like here. I am sick of Catholics trying to “teach” me “truth” by applying this type of label to me; in fact to any Protestant whom you cannot cajole into your heresies. I will simply withdraw from this thread, and wish you lots of luck with your antics. I will post my answers to this whole question of the sabbath being changed elsewhere, where people are willing to respectfully CONTRAST and COMPARE , as is the stated purpose of this thread.

 

[Always_For_Him]

I find it amazing that with all of the Scripture quoted, and knowledge being shown here, that 101 could still come back with the “arguments as proof”. It has been shown here very clearly and thoroughly where he/she is wrong/mislead. Sunday has been the Lord’s day since the apostles. You really can’t get any closer to the truth than that, (besides where it is shown over and over again in Scripture) unless you look at what Jesus did on Sundays.

That is some pretty strong language (heresies) to be using against the Church that Jesus founded with Peter and the Apostles. The Catholic Church has always followed the Tradition and teachings of Jesus as was taught to Peter and the Apostles as has continued to this day to be taught in the CC. It is really sad that you would use “heresies” as being what the Catholic Church teaches. Every single branch off of the original trunk of Christianity (the Early Church - the Catholic Church) teaches the heresy you speak of. It is just that you have not been taught that. You have been taught against the Catholic Church and it’s teachings to believe the teachings of man in the 1800’s.

Protestant 101 can’t seem to learn from his/her repeated actions. Every single thread that I have been on with him/her has progressed in this manner. He/she states opinions as fact. He/she can’t provide proof of anything he/she states. He/she is obviously knowledgable (in his/her faith) and has great debating skills. The circular discussion and continued re-stating of false “facts” is truly aggregious and is what Protestant 101 does on every thread. ,

He/she realized that he/she couldn’t prove his/her statements, beliefs, opinions, and couldn’t handle or admit that the CC has known and practiced the Truth this whole time. Instead of doing the honest thing and admit something could be right in what we are saying as to continue to have a healthy discussion, he/she plays victim, badmouths Catholics and leaves the thread. Sad! It would have been nice to see a productive conversation ensue because of the knowledge gained here. It would have/could have been a great discussion.

Now, I fear what he/she is stating and “proving” elsewhere.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

For us, as Catholics, the fact that the early church under the apostles and guided by the Holy Spirit began to observe Sunday instead as Saturday as its sabbath should be enough proof that it is approved by God. The apostles wouldn’t have allowed this otherwise. Those who cling to the celebration of the Lord’s day on the Saturday sabbath would have to admit that the apostles who were appointed by Jesus and guided by the Holy Spirit were wrong about this.

Your assumption that the apostles kept Sunday instead of the Sabbath is just not true. Nowhere does the bible indicate that. The Sabbath by the way is not a Jewish cerimonial rite. It was given by God at creation Exodus 2:3.

In Christ Richard

 

[Lilyflower]

At first the disciples, who were all Jews, continued to go to the temple on the sabbath and gathered as Christians on the following day. As more gentiles entered the church the issue needed to be addressed, whether Christians needed to follow the Jewish ritual laws. Christians celebrated the Lord’s day on Sunday, since that’s when Jesus rose (the work of redemption was completed). I haven’t read anything that says that non- Jewish Christians ever observed the Saturday sabbath.

This is also somewhat a matter of calendars. Spanish calendars show Monday as the first day of the week and Sunday as the seventh day. I suspect even today in America we have a sense that Monday is the first day of the week. Sunday is the end of the weekend, the end of the week.

For us, as Catholics, the fact that the early church under the apostles and guided by the Holy Spirit began to observe Sunday instead as Saturday as its sabbath should be enough proof that it is approved by God. The apostles wouldn’t have allowed this otherwise. Those who cling to the celebration of the Lord’s day on the Saturday sabbath would have to admit that the apostles who were appointed by Jesus and guided by the Holy Spirit were wrong about this.

I have had many debates with folk who insist that Monday is the first day of the week and Sunday the last day.

Blessings and peace.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I would appreciate all the scriptural references you can provide regarding God’s seal applying to the 7th day sabbath for my further study.

Thank you!
Patrick Murebil

Romans4:11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
This verse shows that the bible considers a sign and a seal as being synonomus

In Christ Richard

 

[MarysRoses]

Romans4:11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
This verse shows that the bible considers a sign and a seal as being synonomus

In Christ Richard

Of course, if you read that in context instead of as a proof text…

Circumcision is the sign or seal being spoken about. Are Christians to be Circumcised? Of course not. So it seems not all signs or seals are for all time.

Its an assumption that is not in the bible that a seal contains the elements you listed. Many seals do… but not all. Nowhere in the Bible is any such list defined.

Baptism is the sign or seal that replaces circumcision, not a day.

Colossians 2:11-13

11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

The Holy Spirit seals us, not a day.

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

The apostles after prayerful consideration did not require of Gentile believers more than the following:

27We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
**
Adventists have not successfully explained away these verses either:**

15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

MarysRoses

 

[peary]

ATTENTION NONCATHOLICS:

Isaiah 1:13 - God begins to reveal His displeasure with the Sabbath.

Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2,9; John 20:1,19- the Gospel writers purposely reveal Jesus’ resurrection and appearances were on Sunday. This is because Sunday had now become the most important day in the life of the Church.

Acts 20:7 - this text shows the apostolic tradition of gathering together to celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday, the “first day of the week.” Luke documents the principle worship was on Sunday because this was one of the departures from the Jewish form of worship.

1 Cor. 16:2 - Paul instructs the Corinthians to make contributions to the churches “on the first day of the week,” which is Sunday. This is because the primary day of Christian worship is Sunday.

Col. 2:16-17 - Paul teaches that the Sabbath was only a shadow of what was fulfilled in Christ, and says “let no one pass judgment any more over a Sabbath.”

2 Thess. 2:15 - we are to hold fast to apostolic tradition, whether it is oral or written. The 2,000 year-old tradition of the Church is that the apostles changed the Sabbath day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

Heb. 4:8-9 - regarding the day of rest, if Joshua had given rest, God would not later speak of “another day,” which is Sunday, the new Sabbath. Sunday is the first day of the week and the first day of the new creation brought about by our Lord’s resurrection, which was on Sunday.

Heb. 7:12 - when there is a change in the priesthood, there is a change in the law as well. Because we have a new Priest and a new sacrifice, we also have a new day of worship, which is Sunday.

Rev 1:10 - John specifically points out that he witnesses the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, the Lord’s day, the new day of rest in Christ.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - whatever the Church binds on earth is bound in heaven. Since the resurrection, Mass has been principally celebrated on Sunday.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Your assumption that the apostles kept Sunday instead of the Sabbath is just not true. Nowhere does the bible indicate that. The Sabbath by the way is not a Jewish cerimonial rite. It was given by God at creation Exodus 2:3.

In Christ Richard

Richard,

I believe you are referring to Genesis 2:3 rather than Exodus 2:3 above.

Genesis 2:2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Just a couple questions,

1. Where is the word sabbath found in the creation story referenced in Genesis?

The first I find that term in the Bible is during the time of Moses and the Exodus from Egypt…and nowhere else in between the time of creation and the time of Moses.

1. Where does God command Adam and Eve to “keep the Sabbath”? Or for that matter where does God command Adam and Eve to rest in the creation story?

All I read in the verse you referenced is that God rested from His work of creating.

1. Why do you think it is that on the 7th day of the creation story in Genesis, there is no evening and morning designation for the 7th day?

The first 6 days of the creation story all have that designation of “the evening and the morning were the 1st day”, “the evening and the morning were the 2nd day”, and so on. But why is that designation not present on the 7th day?

I would really love some honest answers to these three questions!

Also, regarding the seal or sign of God being determined by something that contains His Name, His Dominion, and His Role…well…that can all be found in the Lord’s Prayer in the New Testament, as well as the sabbath in the Old Testament.

Sincerely,
Patrick Murebil

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard,
I believe you are referring to Genesis 2:3 rather than Exodus 2:3 above.

Yes, of coarse, sorry
Genesis 2:2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Just a couple questions,

1. Where is the word sabbath found in the creation story referenced in Genesis?

The first I find that term in the Bible is during the time of Moses and the Exodus from Egypt…and nowhere else in between the time of creation and the time of Moses.

Yes, I beleive you are right.

\Quote]3. Why do you think it is that on the 7th day of the creation story in Genesis, there is no evening and morning designation for the 7th day?
The first 6 days of the creation story all have that designation of “the evening and the morning were the 1st day”, “the evening and the morning were the 2nd day”, and so on. But why is that designation not present on the 7th day?

Let me try to answer this secondly.
If you will notice in Gen.2:1it says 1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. God had finished creating all of the physical things in the world and beyond. But then in verse two it says 2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. So, after all the physical things were completed, God still had something left that He wanted to create that of coarse was the sabbath day itself and He did that by resting. Verse3 says And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. I asked myself. Why does God bless and sanctify anything? Is it for Himself? I don’t think so. Adam was created on the sixth day so it seems only logical to me that it was created for him. This brings me to your second question.

1. Where does God command Adam and Eve to “keep the Sabbath”? Or for that matter where does God command Adam and Eve to rest in the creation story?
   All I read in the verse you referenced is that God rested from His work of creating.

As verse three says God blessed and sanctified the seventh day and as I said I BELEIVE that that is where God invites Adam and mabe Eve into His rest. Now I BELEIVE that this rest is somewhat differant than what we normally think of as rest. I BELEIVE that God had just finished His creation of the world and His prize creation man in love and He wnted to spend some quality time with him. We can read all about this in Heb4:1-11
1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
You see all this endless demanding after proof of the sabbath day is pointless. We are invited by God to enter His rest through faith. If you prove it either to yourself or others it does not require faith. And God will not allow you into His rest without faith.

\Quote]
I would really love some honest answers to these three questions!

Sincerely,
Patrick Murebil

It’s been so long since I posted I don’t think I’m getting the quote boxes right. Hope it’t not to confusing
In Christ Richard

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

1. Where is the word sabbath found in the creation story referenced in Genesis?

The first I find that term in the Bible is during the time of Moses and the Exodus from Egypt…and nowhere else in between the time of creation and the time of Moses.

Yes, I beleive you are right.

1. Why do you think it is that on the 7th day of the creation story in Genesis, there is no evening and morning designation for the 7th day?
   The first 6 days of the creation story all have that designation of “the evening and the morning were the 1st day”, “the evening and the morning were the 2nd day”, and so on. But why is that designation not present on the 7th day?

Let me try to answer this secondly.
If you will notice in Gen.2:1it says 1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. God had finished creating all of the physical things in the world and beyond. But then in verse two it says 2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. So, after all the physical things were completed, God still had something left that He wanted to create that of coarse was the sabbath day itself and He did that by resting. Verse3 says And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. I asked myself. Why does God bless and sanctify anything? Is it for Himself? I don’t think so. Adam was created on the sixth day so it seems only logical to me that it was created for him. This brings me to your second question.

1. Where does God command Adam and Eve to “keep the Sabbath”? Or for that matter where does God command Adam and Eve to rest in the creation story?
   All I read in the verse you referenced is that God rested from His work of creating.

As verse three says God blessed and sanctified the seventh day and as I said I BELEIVE that that is where God invites Adam and mabe Eve into His rest. Now I BELEIVE that this rest is somewhat differant than what we normally think of as rest. I BELEIVE that God had just finished His creation of the world and His prize creation man in love and He wnted to spend some quality time with him. We can read all about this in Heb4:1-11
1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
You see all this endless demanding after proof of the sabbath day is pointless. We are invited by God to enter His rest through faith. If you prove it either to yourself or others it does not require faith. And God will not allow you into His rest without faith.

Hi Richard,

Thank you very much for you honest answers! And btw, I have problems with these quote things too, but your answers were not confusing at all. I’ve highlighted your answers in red above for clarity.

I found that I agreed with much of what you said in your answers. Your answers have also raised a few more questions in my mind which I would like to ask you. However, one problem which I have identified with ME is, that as new questions arise in my mind from what you and others say, I immediately begin to answer those questions myself. The problem I see with that, at least in my case, is that by me answering questions that I have for you, before hearing your answers, I may not actually be listening to what YOU are saying when you do provide your answers. I sincerely desire to ensure that we are hearing and understanding what each other is saying, which is not to say that we have to agree, only that we are listening and hearing each other. I am not as bright as others on these posts…I’m impressed that so many have great information, it seems, at their fingertips…but I don’t. I’m not dull mind you, but I’m not quite as bright as others. So I sincerely do want to dialog with you and others, and I also desire to avoid the rudeness of not “hearing” what others say. I think this will go a long way in preventing arguments, so that we may enjoy a conversation reflective of the love we share as brothers in Jesus Christ.

With that in mind I have a request for you. Will you continue to dialog with me, here publicly, but at a slower pace? I know that can be difficult since so many are asking you questions and sharing insights with you (this is a world wide site after all). I’m not asking that you don’t particpate with them…but sort of on the side (yet on this thread) will you dialog with me? I know that is a lot to ask, but I think it will be more productive for me. And I’m patient, so if you are spending time answering and sharing with others on here, I will wait for your replies to me. I’m 49 years old and hopefully have another 30 or 40 years to talk with you…as long as no one pulls the plug on the computer. I observed the 7th day sabbath for many years, so it is a topic of deep interest to me, and forms a unique bond between you and me.

If my request seems reasonable to you and you agree to dialog with me, how does it sound to you that we start at the beginning and deal with one point at a time before we move on to the next point? Let’s begin with the Creation story and discuss that before we move on to Exodus and Hebrews and all the rest of the books of the Bible. Agreed??

If you agree, I guess the very first question I have for you to set the baseline is: Do you believe that the account of Creation in Genesis is literal or figurative?

Thank you again Richard for your answers, and let me know what you think about the proposition I’ve described above.

God bless all!
Patrick Murebil

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Hi Richard,
Thank you very much for you honest answers! And btw, I have problems with these quote things too, but your answers were not confusing at all. I’ve highlighted your answers in red above for clarity.

I found that I agreed with much of what you said in your answers. Your answers have also raised a few more questions in my mind which I would like to ask you. However, one problem which I have identified with ME is, that as new questions arise in my mind from what you and others say, I immediately begin to answer those questions myself. The problem I see with that, at least in my case, is that by me answering questions that I have for you, before hearing your answers, I may not actually be listening to what YOU are saying when you do provide your answers. I sincerely desire to ensure that we are hearing and understanding what each other is saying, which is not to say that we have to agree, only that we are listening and hearing each other. I am not as bright as others on these posts…I’m impressed that so many have great information, it seems, at their fingertips…but I don’t. I’m not dull mind you, but I’m not quite as bright as others. So I sincerely do want to dialog with you and others, and I also desire to avoid the rudeness of not “hearing” what others say. I think this will go a long way in preventing arguments, so that we may enjoy a conversation reflective of the love we share as brothers in Jesus Christ.

With that in mind I have a request for you. Will you continue to dialog with me, here publicly, but at a slower pace? I know that can be difficult since so many are asking you questions and sharing insights with you (this is a world wide site after all). I’m not asking that you don’t particpate with them…but sort of on the side (yet on this thread) will you dialog with me? I know that is a lot to ask, but I think it will be more productive for me. And I’m patient, so if you are spending time answering and sharing with others on here, I will wait for your replies to me. I’m 49 years old and hopefully have another 30 or 40 years to talk with you…as long as no one pulls the plug on the computer. I observed the 7th day sabbath for many years, so it is a topic of deep interest to me, and forms a unique bond between you and me.

I have absolutely no problem carrying on a dialog with you either here in a public forum or in private. I would enjoy that.

\Quote]If my request seems reasonable to you and you agree to dialog with me, how does it sound to you that we start at the beginning and deal with one point at a time before we move on to the next point? Let’s begin with the Creation story and discuss that before we move on to Exodus and Hebrews and all the rest of the books of the Bible. Agreed??

Here’s where we run into our first problem. Altho the bible is set up in a somewhat consistant cronological progression from Genesis to Revelation. It is not like other books, verses from one part of the bible help explain verses from other parts of the bible, therefore if you pidgeonhole yourself by saying you can only look at one part of the bible at a time, you will never come to a comprehensive knowledge of any of it. Isaiah28:10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: So no I don’t beleive I can agree to restrict myself in the manner you propose. However all restrictions aside I would be more than happy.

\Quote]If you agree, I guess the very first question I have for you to set the baseline is: Do you believe that the account of Creation in Genesis is literal or figurative?

Thank you again Richard for your answers, and let me know what you think about the proposition I’ve described above.

God bless all!
Patrick Murebil

I beleive the creation account is a literal account. If it were figurative what would it be a figure of, what would be the lesson learned from it. When Jesus told His parables, (stories not literally true), there was always an evident lesson to be learned. What would that be in a symbolic creation story. There are other reasons but this is a start.

In Christ Richard

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Here’s where we run into our first problem. Altho the bible is set up in a somewhat consistant cronological progression from Genesis to Revelation. It is not like other books, verses from one part of the bible help explain verses from other parts of the bible, therefore if you pidgeonhole yourself by saying you can only look at one part of the bible at a time, you will never come to a comprehensive knowledge of any of it. Isaiah28:10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: So no I don’t beleive I can agree to restrict myself in the manner you propose. However all restrictions aside I would be more than happy.

I beleive the creation account is a literal account. If it were figurative what would it be a figure of, what would be the lesson learned from it. When Jesus told His parables, (stories not literally true), there was always an evident lesson to be learned. What would that be in a symbolic creation story. There are other reasons but this is a start.

In Christ Richard

Good morning Richard,

I deeply appreciate your willingness to dialog! And the good news is that our “first problem” is not a problem. I think we are in agreement on how the Bible is structured and that ideas, concepts, realities, etc. may be documented throughout the sacred scriptures. So I agree that we will at times need to reference other parts of the Bible in our dialog. So let’s not apply rigid restrictions to our dialog, but I do think it is VERY important, that when we reference other scripture passages and areas of the Bible, we make sure that our references are understood in the context in which they were written. Agreed? So I think we are good…yes? This is the beauty of dialog…the negotiations which put us in the same mindset as we go forward!!, which is figurative of the oneness we enjoy from being members of the Body of Christ!!

And I appreciate your answer regarding the creation story! I totally agree with you that there are lessons to be learned from parables and from symbolic stories. So my next questions to you are:

1. Would you also agree that there are lessons to be learned from literal stories?
2. What are your main reasons for believing the literalness of the Creation stroy?; and,
3. What are the things/ideas/lessons/etc. that you learn from the Creaton story?

God bless you all

 

[Richard_Kastner]

And I appreciate your answer regarding the creation story! I totally agree with you that there are lessons to be learned from parables and from symbolic stories. So my next questions to you are:

1. Would you also agree that there are lessons to be learned from literal stories?
2. What are your main reasons for believing the literalness of the Creation stroy?; and,
3. What are the things/ideas/lessons/etc. that you learn from the Creaton story?

God bless you all

1. The vast majority of the bible is to be taken literally. So, yes, I would absolutely agree that there is much to learn from the bible stories.

2.Well, as I said. The lack of a lesson from a symbolic creation story is the first. Also, you will notice in Gen. 1:11-18
11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

God creates plants before the sun and the moon. If the days were symbolic of millions and billions of years, how would the plants survive? Also if you do the math and add up the years of the people in the geneology of Gen.5 and other places it adds up to an earth that is approximately 6,000 years old. What possible reason would God have for fabricating something like that?

1. The lessons from the Creation story are too numerous to mention, but the one that I think is the most important is that man sinned and was worthy only of death,but in Gen.3 :15 God promises a savior. 15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. This is the first prophecy in the bible. It is God telling Satan that he will be vanquished by Jesus. I don’t know about you but I think thats pretty good news. Hope these somewhat answer your questions.

InChrist Richard

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

1. The vast majority of the bible is to be taken literally. So, yes, I would absolutely agree that there is much to learn from the bible stories.

2.Well, as I said. The lack of a lesson from a symbolic creation story is the first. Also, you will notice in Gen. 1:11-18
11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

God creates plants before the sun and the moon. If the days were symbolic of millions and billions of years, how would the plants survive? Also if you do the math and add up the years of the people in the geneology of Gen.5 and other places it adds up to an earth that is approximately 6,000 years old. What possible reason would God have for fabricating something like that?

1. The lessons from the Creation story are too numerous to mention, but the one that I think is the most important is that man sinned and was worthy only of death,but in Gen.3 :15 God promises a savior. 15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. This is the first prophecy in the bible. It is God telling Satan that he will be vanquished by Jesus. I don’t know about you but I think thats pretty good news. Hope these somewhat answer your questions.

InChrist Richard

Hi Richard,

1. I am glad we are in agreement on this point!
2. Thank you for giving me your reasons as to why you believe the Creation story is literal.
3. I agree that there are many many lessons to learn from the Creation story, but not that they are too numerous to mention. After all, that is what we agreed to talk about. And please believe me when I tell you I’m not trying to convince you or anyone else that the Creation story is literal or figurative. Either way a person looks at that, we should be able to agree on the things that the Creation story reveals to us…I don’t believe there are any hidden messages in this story. So as we dialog, let’s keep track of the things we agree on that the Creation story is revealing to man.

I completely agree with you that the first prophecy God made after the fall of man and sin entered this world is GREAT news!!! The Word of God who just created the world in Genesis, made flesh in the body of Jesus, whose life, death, and resurrection give us all life and hope!! GREAT is not an adequate term to describe the goodness of that news!

Since you believe that the Creation story covers a literal 7 day period, and in that first week of creation there seems to be no evidence that Adam and Eve had sinned…My next questions to you are:

1. Would I be correct to assume that you also agree that Adam and Eve did not sin in the first 7 days of creation?; and
2. Can we discuss that wonderful prophecy later on in our diaglog, and for now just center our dialog around the actual 7 days of creation, and what is revealed to us in those 7 days?

The scriptures you reference provide much information, and there are similar “themes” throughout the 7 day creation period…such as the evening and morning designations, God’s work, etc. I think it would be beneficial to take the time and look at these 7 days, individually and together as a complete period of time. How does that sound to you? Agreed?

God bless you all!!
Patrick Murebil

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Hi Richard,

Since you believe that the Creation story covers a literal 7 day period, and in that first week of creation there seems to be no evidence that Adam and Eve had sinned…My next questions to you are:

1. Would I be correct to assume that you also agree that Adam and Eve did not sin in the first 7 days of creation?; and
2. Can we discuss that wonderful prophecy later on in our diaglog, and for now just center our dialog around the actual 7 days of creation, and what is revealed to us in those 7 days?

The scriptures you reference provide much information, and there are similar “themes” throughout the 7 day creation period…such as the evening and morning designations, God’s work, etc. I think it would be beneficial to take the time and look at these 7 days, individually and together as a complete period of time. How does that sound to you? Agreed?

God bless you all!!
Patrick Murebil

Sure we can look at these days together or seperately. You seem to be leading me somewhere, I’m not quite sure where, but lead on.

1. Adam and Eve could not have sinned the first six days because they were not created yet.
2. Ya, we can come back to it later.

Somehow I get the feeling that you beleive in evolution. Would I be wrong? If that is true, or even if it’s not true. Let me make a couple of observations Gen1-1says 1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Gen1-14says14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: If you beleive in millions and billions of years You cannot beleive in Gen1-14 which pretty much gives us the way in which we are to measure time or in Gen1-1 which tells us that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth or for that matter in the rest of Gen1 in which we are told that God created all these things in seven days. I’m assuming days of a twenty four hour period, because thats what they are now and if he gave them to us then to measure time I can think of no reason why He would change it. What is your feelings about evolution?

In Christ Richard