why is sunday instead of saturday the sabboth?

[Patrick_Murebil]

Sure we can look at these days together or seperately. You seem to be leading me somewhere, I’m not quite sure where, but lead on.

1. Adam and Eve could not have sinned the first six days because they were not created yet.
2. Ya, we can come back to it later.

Somehow I get the feeling that you beleive in evolution. Would I be wrong? If that is true, or even if it’s not true. Let me make a couple of observations Gen1-1says 1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Gen1-14says14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: If you beleive in millions and billions of years You cannot beleive in Gen1-14 which pretty much gives us the way in which we are to measure time or in Gen1-1 which tells us that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth or for that matter in the rest of Gen1 in which we are told that God created all these things in seven days. I’m assuming days of a twenty four hour period, because thats what they are now and if he gave them to us then to measure time I can think of no reason why He would change it. What is your feelings about evolution?

In Christ Richard

Hi Richard,

I would love for us to look at these days seperately AND together. I don’t like seperating verses from the context in which they reside…and yet I’ve found, and I believe you would most likely agree, that each verse can contain many gems!! I don’t think I’m leading you anywhere as much as I am trying to lead ME somewhere. And where I want to go is to thoughtful dialog and consideration of what the scriptures are saying. I speak only for myself when I say that I have found on these threads that I get so carried away with my thoughts, that I try to get everything I’m thinking in one or more of these posts (my apologies to those of you who have already suffered through my “volumes” of post after post), and what I desired to communicate was lost…my fault alone…and understandably so. I just want to slow down my dialog, make sure I’m making my thoughts clear and at least understood, and also to hear clearly other people’s thoughts, and at least understand what they are saying. Communication is my goal. And if you are still willing to allow me to lead on, then I can’t ask for anything else. Well…what do you say we walk together and let Jesus lead? And Richard, you and I should be praying deeply for the Holy Spirit to lead us as we dialog. And I would ask anyone reading these posts to pray for me, and us, if they feel so inclined:thumbsup:

1. See you make a very good point that Adam and Eve could not have sinned during the first six days. I agree with you completely! May I assume that you also believe they did not sin on the 7th day? And if you believe they did sin on the 7th day, please provide some scriptures that support that. I’m not aware of any.
2. Great! Thank you!

Yes you would be wrong to think that I believe in evolution. I do not. There may be some folks who read these threads who do, and I don’t want to drive them away. As I said before, whether you believe the Creation story is literal or figurative, the things God teaches us in these 7 days of the creation story are beautiful!! No, evolution is not what I believe…I believe God formed man from the dust of the ground, the clay of the earth, and breathed into his nostrils the Breath of Life, and man became a living soul…a living being…a human!!! Obviously, neither the Creationists nor the Evolutionists where there to know what really happened…each belief system surrounding creation is just that…a belief system…and that involves faith. Some of the best arguments, or at least questions posed to Evolutionists, that I’ve ever read revealing the faith issue of evolution was by an atheist…fascinating reading…questions which the most ardent evolutionists cannot answer…questions that cannot be answered yet are critical to holding their theory together…I wonder if he might really be a closet Christian So, since each belief system is a matter of faith, I choose God!

I have to run now, but I’ll send something here tomorrow morning, and we can take our time and dialog in Christian patience and love…and I know we will both be blessed!!

Thank you Richard for your willingness!! Have a good night!
God bless you all!!!
Patrick Murebil

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Hi Richard,

Ok let’s begin at the beginning and share what we learn from Genesis 1:1,2 I use the New International Version pretty regularly, and I believe I read somewhere that you referenced the King James Version, so I’ve included the texts from both versions. Please feel free to post the text from any other versions!

Geneis 1:[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (KJV)
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (NIV)

What I learn from this simple verse is that God existed first, before all that he created. Everything that exists came after God, and because He created it. The heavens, which would include everything beyond this earth. All the angels, all the galaxies, and all that exists, beyond our realm. The earth, our realm, was created by God, and not the other way around. The earth and the extensive universe are not God’s body or house. This verse from the very beginning makes it clear that God was first, is all powerful, and not to be confused with that which He created. He, and He alone is God, and we are not. He is the Creator and not the creation. Agreed?

Genesis 1:[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (KJV)
Genesis 1:2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. (NIV)

In this verse we find that the earth was incomplete, because it is the earth that is without form and void. Why no mention of heaven, in this verse. Because heaven and all of the creation in that realm was complete. The angels and all created beings in existence in heaven were complete. But the earth was not. The heavenly realm was complete and working, but our realm the earth was not. The rest of Genesis 1 is God’s response to bring resolution to these states of incompleteness…formlessness, emptiness, darkness. And yet the power of God is present in the Spirit of God hovering and moving over the face of the waters. The beginning of the plan to complete the realm of the earth!

Richard, please add your thoughts, comments, questions, to these two verses and what I’ve said. And then we can move on to the next verses where God begins to bring order out of chaos, and completeness to the earth.

God bless you all!!

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Hi Richard,

Ok let’s begin at the beginning and share what we learn from Genesis 1:1,2 I use the New International Version pretty regularly, and I believe I read somewhere that you referenced the King James Version, so I’ve included the texts from both versions. Please feel free to post the text from any other versions!

Geneis 1:[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (KJV)
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (NIV)

What I learn from this simple verse is that God existed first, before all that he created. Everything that exists came after God, and because He created it. The heavens, which would include everything beyond this earth. All the angels, all the galaxies, and all that exists, beyond our realm. The earth, our realm, was created by God, and not the other way around.

Actually, you will notice that heavens is plural indicating that there are more than one heaven. Vss 6-8 tell of the creation of the first heaven.
6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Paul alludes to the third heaven in 11 Cor.12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. The three heavens would be identified as 1) The place where we live, the atmosphere between the earth and outer space. 2) Outer space or the place where the stars, galaxies and whatever else are and 3) The place where God lives. It appears as though all three were created at this time.
Also, this statement. (The earth, our realm, was created by God, and not the other way around) I’m not sure I understand. What other way around could there be.

Patrick:

The earth and the extensive universe are not God’s body or house. This verse from the very beginning makes it clear that God was first, is all powerful, and not to be confused with that which He created. He, and He alone is God, and we are not. He is the Creator and not the creation. Agreed?

Agreed.

Patrick:

Genesis 1:[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (KJV)
Genesis 1:2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. (NIV)

In this verse we find that the earth was incomplete, because it is the earth that is without form and void. Why no mention of heaven, in this verse. Because heaven and all of the creation in that realm was complete. The angels and all created beings in existence in heaven were complete. But the earth was not. The heavenly realm was complete and working, but our realm the earth was not. The rest of Genesis 1 is God’s response to bring resolution to these states of incompleteness…formlessness, emptiness, darkness. And yet the power of God is present in the Spirit of God hovering and moving over the face of the waters. The beginning of the plan to complete the realm of the earth!

There is no mention of heaven in this verse because it is talking about the earth. But I beleive you are right that at least the heaven where God lives was created before the earth and probably before the second heaven.
For all the things that happened in heaven. Lucifer sinning in his heart, drawing a third of the angelic population with him, being cast to te earth. I think would have taken more time than the literal six days of creation and the short time that Adam and Eve lived in Eden before there fall.

Patrick:

Richard, please add your thoughts, comments, questions, to these two verses and what I’ve said. And then we can move on to the next verses where God begins to bring order out of chaos, and completeness to the earth.

God bless you all!!

Sorry it took so long, but I’m a glacially slow typer and I went to Sabbath services this morning
In Christ Richard

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Actually, you will notice that heavens is plural indicating that there are more than one heaven.

Yes the heavens is plural in the New International Version, yet singular in the King James Version. I agree there are different “heavens”, but let’s focus on this account in Genesis 1 and what the author is teaching here.

Vss 6-8 tell of the creation of the first heaven.
6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Paul alludes to the third heaven in 11 Cor.12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. The three heavens would be identified as 1) The place where we live, the atmosphere between the earth and outer space. 2) Outer space or the place where the stars, galaxies and whatever else are and 3) The place where God lives. It appears as though all three were created at this time.

I know this is exciting and so easy to jump ahead to the next verses in this chapter, but we are discussing verse 1 at this point, and discussing what this scripture is saying here. Let’s go through each verse in Chapter One, the Creation story and see what we learn from this account. At a later point we can look at the next chapters, and Paul’s teachings, but his teachings are WAY in the future from the creation account written by Moses. So question:

1. Am I safe in assuming that you believe Genesis was written by Moses?

Also, this statement. (The earth, our realm, was created by God, and not the other way around) I’m not sure I understand. What other way around could there be.

I’m just baselining our agreement that God created the earth, and not that the earth is God as many of the New Age and pagan adherents claim…you know…be kind to your Mother…Earth. God is the First Cause, and Creator of all.

Agreed.

Good, the statement above is related to this.

There is no mention of heaven in this verse because it is talking about the earth. But I beleive you are right that at least the heaven where God lives was created before the earth and probably before the second heaven.
For all the things that happened in heaven. Lucifer sinning in his heart, drawing a third of the angelic population with him, being cast to te earth. I think would have taken more time than the literal six days of creation and the short time that Adam and Eve lived in Eden before there fall.

So I think we both agree that what happens next after this verse, verse 2, deals with God’s creative work on this formless and void earth where we live…and that we will see another work of creation regarding a heaven in the verses that follow.

I think we are in pretty good agreement to move on to the next verses. I only have one question above for you at this point in time. If you have any others at this point regarding these first two verses, just ask me now. Otherwise I believe we are hearing what each other is saying. Agreed? I know this is a slow process, but real communication is difficult…but I think we are progressing nicely after two verses…and only how many hundreds of thousands of verses to go???

Sorry it took so long, but I’m a glacially slow typer and I went to Sabbath services this morning
In Christ Richard

Slow typing you do not need to apologize for.

This is not a race.

God bless all!!!

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I know this is exciting and so easy to jump ahead to the next verses in this chapter, but we are discussing verse 1 at this point, and discussing what this scripture is saying here. Let’s go through each verse in Chapter One, the Creation story and see what we learn from this account. At a later point we can look at the next chapters, and Paul’s teachings, but his teachings are WAY in the future from the creation account written by Moses. So question:

As I stated in the beginning I will not be restricted in any way. The reason I jump ahead is because there is information in the rest of the bible that is pertinant. If you are willing to accept this unrestricted approach we can continue. If not we need to stop here and you can find someone who is willing to accept your restrictions.

In Christ Richard

 

[SDA2RC]

As I stated in the beginning I will not be restricted in any way. The reason I jump ahead is because there is information in the rest of the bible that is pertinant. If you are willing to accept this unrestricted approach we can continue. If not we need to stop here and you can find someone who is willing to accept your restrictions.

In Christ Richard

Patrick is not suggesting restriction, he is suggesting you study a verse in its context… why does that frighten you?

 

[peary]

As I stated in the beginning I will not be restricted in any way. The reason I jump ahead is because there is information in the rest of the bible that is pertinant. If you are willing to accept this unrestricted approach we can continue. If not we need to stop here and you can find someone who is willing to accept your restrictions.

In Christ Richard

**Bit of an attitude? **

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

As I stated in the beginning I will not be restricted in any way. The reason I jump ahead is because there is information in the rest of the bible that is pertinant. If you are willing to accept this unrestricted approach we can continue. If not we need to stop here and you can find someone who is willing to accept your restrictions.

In Christ Richard

Richard,

I am not in disagreement with you that there is information throughout all the Bible that refers to God creating this earth…the Psalms, Job, etc., etc., etc,…most likely every book in the Bible.

This thread is titled "Why is sunday instead of saturday the sabboth?" I have read throughout this thread references to the sabbath being instituted at creation, so I thought what better way to dialog about the sabbath and the assertion that it was instituted at creation, than to look at the Creation Story. The creation story is contained in Genesis chapters 1 and 2. The Story of the Fall of Man begins in Genesis chapter 3.

Let me be perfectly clear about what I have suggested as to how we dialog regarding this. First, I suggested that we look at the Creation story in Genesis, which you have already stated you believe is a literal account, and share with each other what THAT story has to teach us…what we BOTH LEARN from THAT stroy. I also suggested that we take it verse by verse, in context of what is documented regarding each day of creation. I have shared with you what I learned from the Bible account, the sriptures only (so far in only the first two verses), and asked only that you share with me what those specific verses say to you and what you learn from them. Second, that after we dialog about each verse, and share with each other our thoughts and what we each learn personally from those verses, we look at the entire story for other things we learn from it. Within the context of the creation story, which you have told me is literal, and everyone can see is contained in Genesis chapters 1 and 2, there is no restriction on us sharing what we are each learning from those scriptures and those scriptures alone…the very scriptures, inspired by God, which tell the story of Creation.

That should not be difficult for either of us. And if this approach is so difficult, I would like to know why. This is not some trap that either one of us is setting for the other. There are many eyes reading this thread from many denominations other than just Catholic and Adventist. Everyone who reads this thread has access to a Bible and can read each verse that we are discussing. If I make a claim that one of these verses is teaching that Lucifer is God, I will be called down on that. Not because I may believe that in my heart but because it is obviously not in the scriptures we are discussing. And I would ask anyone reading this thread at this point to join in with thoughts or questions to anything that may be said regarding a verse we are discussing. With so many watching both you and me Richard, and what we say, I don’t think we are going to “pull” anything over on each other. The other hundreds of people reading this would not let that happen.

I want to dialog about the Creation story with you, not do Bible studies on all the potential topics realated to the Creation Story. And I want to dialog with you based on the scriptures and the scriptures alone…no theologians, no church leaders, no scholars. Not that they aren’t important and their thoughts not helpful…but that we can share OUR thoughts based on what WE read in this story taken from what the scriptures say…plain English. Knowing that you referenced the King James Version, I believe, earlier, I included the text from that version as well as the New International Version…and we can include other versions if you would like. If the Creation story existed for God’s people before Paul’s time, then we should be able to discuss the Creation story without Paul’s (name removed by moderator)ut…not that there is anything wrong with Paul’s (name removed by moderator)ut…I love Paul!!!

And if this is too difficult for you, then I will respect your choice to end our dialog. However, to any other SDAs out there reading this, I would then extend an invitation to you to enter this dialog with me, and we can start at the beginning again…if you are serious about an honest loving dialog. So often we hurl ideas back and forth in discussion without listening to each other. Here is a very simple exercise to look at two chapters in the Bible, verse by verse, and share our honest thoughts and feelings about what we are learning from these precious scriptures. If anyone knows of a better approach for two Christians to look at one thing, please, please, please let me know. The one restriction I do not want to be hindered by is the narrowness of my own mind.

What say ye Richard??

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard,

I am not in disagreement with you that there is information throughout all the Bible that refers to God creating this earth…the Psalms, Job, etc., etc., etc,…most likely every book in the Bible.

This thread is titled "Why is sunday instead of saturday the sabboth?" I have read throughout this thread references to the sabbath being instituted at creation, so I thought what better way to dialog about the sabbath and the assertion that it was instituted at creation, than to look at the Creation Story. The creation story is contained in Genesis chapters 1 and 2. The Story of the Fall of Man begins in Genesis chapter 3.

Let me be perfectly clear about what I have suggested as to how we dialog regarding this. First, I suggested that we look at the Creation story in Genesis, which you have already stated you believe is a literal account, and share with each other what THAT story has to teach us…what we BOTH LEARN from THAT stroy. I also suggested that we take it verse by verse, in context of what is documented regarding each day of creation. I have shared with you what I learned from the Bible account, the sriptures only (so far in only the first two verses), and asked only that you share with me what those specific verses say to you and what you learn from them. Second, that after we dialog about each verse, and share with each other our thoughts and what we each learn personally from those verses, we look at the entire story for other things we learn from it. Within the context of the creation story, which you have told me is literal, and everyone can see is contained in Genesis chapters 1 and 2, there is no restriction on us sharing what we are each learning from those scriptures and those scriptures alone…the very scriptures, inspired by God, which tell the story of Creation.

That should not be difficult for either of us. And if this approach is so difficult, I would like to know why. This is not some trap that either one of us is setting for the other. There are many eyes reading this thread from many denominations other than just Catholic and Adventist. Everyone who reads this thread has access to a Bible and can read each verse that we are discussing. If I make a claim that one of these verses is teaching that Lucifer is God, I will be called down on that. Not because I may believe that in my heart but because it is obviously not in the scriptures we are discussing. And I would ask anyone reading this thread at this point to join in with thoughts or questions to anything that may be said regarding a verse we are discussing. With so many watching both you and me Richard, and what we say, I don’t think we are going to “pull” anything over on each other. The other hundreds of people reading this would not let that happen.

I want to dialog about the Creation story with you, not do Bible studies on all the potential topics realated to the Creation Story. And I want to dialog with you based on the scriptures and the scriptures alone…no theologians, no church leaders, no scholars. Not that they aren’t important and their thoughts not helpful…but that we can share OUR thoughts based on what WE read in this story taken from what the scriptures say…plain English. Knowing that you referenced the King James Version, I believe, earlier, I included the text from that version as well as the New International Version…and we can include other versions if you would like. If the Creation story existed for God’s people before Paul’s time, then we should be able to discuss the Creation story without Paul’s (name removed by moderator)ut…not that there is anything wrong with Paul’s (name removed by moderator)ut…I love Paul!!!

And if this is too difficult for you, then I will respect your choice to end our dialog. However, to any other SDAs out there reading this, I would then extend an invitation to you to enter this dialog with me, and we can start at the beginning again…if you are serious about an honest loving dialog. So often we hurl ideas back and forth in discussion without listening to each other. Here is a very simple exercise to look at two chapters in the Bible, verse by verse, and share our honest thoughts and feelings about what we are learning from these precious scriptures. If anyone knows of a better approach for two Christians to look at one thing, please, please, please let me know. The one restriction I do not want to be hindered by is the narrowness of my own mind.

What say ye Richard??

I don’t beleive that your method is difficult at all. Its just not a way that I choose to study the bible. I think the intire bible must be accessed in order to understand any part of it fully. I thought that I made that clear in the beginning. So I guess I will pass on our study.

In Christ Richard

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I don’t beleive that your method is difficult at all. Its just not a way that I choose to study the bible. I think the intire bible must be accessed in order to understand any part of it fully. I thought that I made that clear in the beginning. So I guess I will pass on our study.

In Christ Richard

Very well then Richard…as you wish. I will keep you and yours in my prayers and ask that you keep me and mine in yours.

God bless you!

Patrick Murebile

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Very well then Richard…as you wish. I will keep you and yours in my prayers and ask that you keep me and mine in yours.

God bless you!

Patrick Murebile

I would just like to share a few thoughts with those reading this post before I leave it (unless there is another SDA or group of SDAs who would like to look at the Creation story and discuss what it says based on the Bible and the Bible alone…only 2 chapters…Gen.1&2…and after that we can expand our discussion).

Upon reflection, I must confess that Richard was at a disadvantage from the start. I was a SDA from 1978 through the end of the 1990s. I received a B.A. in theology at a SDA college. Being a SDA was my life, my purpose, and my love. So I know pretty much the same things that Richard knows. My advantage comes into play with my study of Catholicism and my belief in the truth of its teachings. Richard does not have that benefit.

I am going to share my experience in “Bible study” as a SDA. And to all the former SDAs out there who are now Catholic, please confirm or deny if your experiece was similar to mine, or in what ways it was different.

When I was a SDA, studying the Bible meant presenting to non-SDAs approximately 28 pre-organized Bible studies with approximately 10 to 20 pre-organized verses for each study. In the late 1970s my access to these verses came from “marking” my Bible, so I could use my Bible and only my Bible when “giving” Bible studies to non-SDAs. In the front of my Bible I listed the title of each Bible study with the first verse to go to. After presenting that verse, I had a note at the end of it listing the next verse to go to…and so on and so on until I completed the Bible study. The Bible I used was purchased at a SDA Book and Bilble store (I don’t know if they are still called that or not), and at the end there was a supplement with quotations from Cardinal Gibbons, the Sunday Visitor, and a few other Catholic publications to support what I was telling people about the blasphemy of the Catholic Church. In the early 1990s we used pre-printed Bible study pamphlets for each of the 28 doctrinal studies, and the student could fill in the blanks with their answers.

When I told someone with whom I was “studying”, that it is important to have access to the entire Bible, I did not mean the ENTIRE Bible…merely those verses that supported which ever of the 28 studies I desired to prove to my student. As a SDA it was important that I kept control of the verses we “studied” and guided the student along the path of “truth”. We who gave Bible studies were practiced in meeting the usual objections.

By seeing the verses, quotes, and answers to objections that SDAs are presenting in the various posts in this forum…those verses, quotes, and answers to objections do not appear to have changed from when I was saying them.

Having said all that, I do not necessarily believe that this is a bad or deceptive practice. I think it is good to be organized in your thoughts, able to state clearly what you believe, and answer questions asked that object to what you are saying, and especially to what you believe. There are many effective tools to accomplish this purpose.

What bothered me as a SDA, and something that I think anyone who is entering into a “Bible study” relationship with SDAs should be aware of, is that while the claim is made that they follow the Bible and the Bible only…it was, and still seems necessary to, be in control of what is discussed. This leads to the narrow focus of what is talked about as well as the apparent jumping around all over the Bible, resulting in circular arguments.

It’s true that discussing 2 chapters in Genesis is not difficult for a SDA. I never found it difficult as a SDA to access and discuss the entire Bible. The problem was that unless I could keep the other person focused on my verses, it was humiliating and embarrassing to not have answers to verses that contradicted what I believed as a SDA. One of the many amazing things I discovered when I finally accepted Catholicism, is that my beliefs are more Biblical now than they were when I was a SDA claiming to follow the Bible and the Bible only. If any Chruch follows the Bible and ALL of the Bible it is the Catholic Church. I fear no discussions now of any part of the Bible…because now I have access to the Truth…the Trinity and communion with God. I can now read the entire Bible (even the books the protestants removed) and be blessed by what they teach!

These are my final thoughts for this post unless someone would like to discuss the Creation story and look at what it says, especilly regarding the Sabbath. I’ll admit that I do not know everything…and I’ll also admit that I fear nothing…because of the wonderful God we all serve in our different ways!

My two cents, for what they’re worth,

God bless you all!!!
Patrick Murebil

 

[MarysRoses]

My experience is exactly what you described. It starts early, in Junior youth classes. Marking verses and making ‘chains’ of scripture to support SDA beliefs. I was older when we joined the Adventist church, but I helped the younger kids make the lists and mark their bibles. I still have an “It is Written” bible that has all the references printed in the margins, and explanations of ‘difficult’ verses drawn from the SDA bible commentary in the footnotes following each chapter of every book of the bible. And yes, it had an appendix of quotes from various books and magazines that were intended to support Adventist claims.

When I was in college I helped with some of the first “Revelation Seminars”. I attended workshops training people who would be assisting the presentations. One thing that was emphasized was controlling the discussion. We role played people’s possible objections and how to respond to them. We also role played how to redirect a conversation back down the path we wanted it to go in, and not get pulled into a side discussion that would distract from the intended outcomes. I still remember the chalkboard (I’m dating myself) illustrations of how to shape the discussion of doctrines to the desired result.

One thing as an SDA, is that feeling of responsibility to have bible studies with friends to “bring them into the church”. I would always be nervous about someone bringing up a difficult verse for which I did not have an adequate explanation prepared.

I didn’t think any of this was odd. From a brief time at my grandmother’s baptist church, they used scripture similarly, if not as rigidly. The preacher would read a verse or two, then construct his sermon around them. He would draw in bits and pieces of other passages as they seemed relevant to his sermon.
My Baptist grandmother passed her time in church making a list of the bible verses the preacher used, and would read the surrounding passages, marking any verse containing “heaven” in blue, and any verse containing “blood” in red. I still remember the colored pencil she kept in her bible that was red on one end and blue on the other. There was no eraser as both ends were sharpened. My grandfather gave me a nickel for every memory verse I quoted for him. I still remember them. None of this is ‘bad’. It just sets up the framework for looking at scripture as something to be understood in small bites.

As a Catholic, I have nothing to fear from scripture study. Studying entire chapters and entire books even, in the context of their history and culture, opens even more understanding of God, his Love, and why the Church teaches what she does.

God bless,
MarysRoses

 

[adamoses]

I am curious why sunday rather than saturday is considered the sabboth. My girlfriend believes people celebrate the sabboth in error and that it really should be friday night to saturday night like it was in old testament.

the only biblical evidence I can find is:

This is really very little if any evidence justifying sunday as being the sabboth. This just alludes to them breaking bread on sunday and to lay something aside. It really doesn’t tell us to change the sabboth day from saturday to sunday anywhere and does not make this clear at all.

Maybe the disciples kept the sabboth but in addition did this on sunday as well?

Greetings,

Search the scriptures see if these things be true. Take the catholic link see what they say and take this link and study, one who truly seeks the truth will find it.

www.sabbathtruth.com

Some food for thought, whenever one is forced to worship on any day by anyone know that it is not of God.

Interestingly this news has been removed from the newsday website. (underline emphasis added in the article)

This was the link.
newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-croatia-sunday-shopping,0,6159821.story

Croatian shops will have to be closed on Sundays as of Jan. 1 in concession to Catholic church
By Associated Press
4:02 AM EDT, July 15, 2008
ZAGREB, Croatia (AP) _ The Croatian parliament has passed a law forcing shops to close on Sundays in a concession to the Roman Catholic church.The church has campaigned for years for Sundays to be devoted to family or Mass in Croatia, which is almost 90 percent Roman Catholic. But Croatians have begun spending weekends in shopping malls that have flourished across the country in the past few years and remain open seven days a week.
The law adopted Tuesday and goes into effect Jan. 1. It allows Sunday shopping over the summer and Christmas holidays.
The law also allows stores in gas, bus and train stations to open on Sundays year-round, along with those in hospitals. Bakeries, newsstands and flower shops are also exempt from the ban.

God bless and keep us
Adam

 

[SDA2RC]

I am going to share my experience in “Bible study” as a SDA. And to all the former SDAs out there who are now Catholic, please confirm or deny if your experiece was similar to mine, or in what ways it was different.

Patrick,
You hit the nail on the head. The Bible that I used was the HMS Richards study Bible, with the HMS Richards study guide in the back. This is still available through the Adventist Book Center.

The lessons that I liked to use were the 20th Century Bible Studies… they can also still be purchased from the Adventist book Center here: adventistbookcenter.com/Detail.tpl?sku=0828015635

I also carried around a book called “Studying Together” which is also still available. Like you said presented a systematic chain of verses to support Adventist doctrines. In fact here is the first part of the description of it from the ABC website:“This section contains thirty-two doctrinal Bible studies. Each study presents on aspect of Bible truth. Texts are linked together in a systematic way so each link in the chain of truth carefully fits with the succeeding link. Text summaries follow each Bible reference so you will know clearly what is in the text. You will find straightforward Bible answers to sometimes difficult questions immediately following each doctrinal Bible study.”

Finally… I also used the method, like you mentioned, of putting the verses in the margin to lead the next verse for each subject. However, I got some that were actually stickers, so all you had to do is put little stickers with the next verse in the margin and they would take you all the way through the Adventist proof texts.

We learned about this system and how to “study the Bible” in a class that we called “Caleb’s Group”. This group was to train us on how to give Bible studies by linking verse to verse on the subject. We used the text: Isa. 28:10 “For He says, ‘Order on order, order on order, Line on line, line on line, A little here, a little there.’” as our justification for using a text here and there to support our beliefs. The idea was that if you took these pre-chosen texts for each subject throughout the Bible, that you could form a picture of exactly what the Bible taught… we were supposed to take texts from “here a little and there a little”. I even went one up and bought a flip chart of illustrations representing the Adventist interpretation of Daniel and Revelations, it was quite impressive… It even has a picture of the Pope’s Mitre (which has been proven a fraud) and adds the fake title up to 666 right there in the flip chart. Very useful!

LOL

Thanks Patrick for that stroll down memory lane!

 

[Friedrich]

Hi Patrick

I don’t have much time now, just want to say Hi, thanks for all the positive threads. I find it fascinating to hear the experiences of ex-SDA’s, especially your interesting reference to Bible study, marking etc. I only feel sad that that is all you got out of being and SDA. THE VERY REASON FOR THE EXISTENCE OF THE SDA CHURCH IS BECAUSE PEOPLE OF ALL DENOMINATIONS WERE WILLING TO LOOK AT ALL THE BOOKS OF THE BIBLE IN CONTEXT. Their conclusions differed from Protestant, Catholic churches. Because of this they were disfellowshiped, like the Waldenses, Albigenses, and all other heretics before them. Their only recourse was to form a church, the SDA church. Hey, I am not going to try and convince you that your esperience was good if it only had bad memories for you. For me, I am thrilled that my church is willing to look at EVERY TEXT IN THE CURRENT BIBLE (not your extra 7 ? books, which often contradict the rest of the Bible). I am not worried about a church, but about God.

Will chat later, but let me give my real concern: I mentioned in the other thread on Amazing Facts that nations like the Germans produced a Holocaust, the French produced a Revolution/guillotine, the Russians produced a October Revolution. I wondered how this was possible, since all these nations were led by God-fearing spiritual leaders of Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant faith.
My conclusion (mine) is that one of the main causes of these dramatic breakaways from good moral values, was BECAUSE THE CHURCHES DID NOT REFLECT THE TRUE VALUES OF THE BIBLE – I specifically think of the great theologians that started the `Higher Criticism’ way of ripping the Bible apart, of turning spiritual things into literal, and literal into allegory etc. This slowly undermined the faith of the masses, TILL THEY REJECTED THE BIBLE, since it had been reduced to a mere historical literary work. This has affected our whole modern world. So to argue about whether the old, traditional way of Scripture interpretation is good or not, is meaningless to me – I know the results of the modern method – it emptied the churches of Europe, turned them into museums, and is doing the same in my country, which used to be conservative and spiritual.

Unfortunately I seem the same higher criticism' results in this forum, where there is a dilution of basics like the commandments etc. till they are described as merely for the use of the Jews’ or `a curse’ etc. This road leads nowhere but down.

If we can’t agree on these basics, then dialogue is a waste of time.

See you,

Friedrich

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Hi Patrick

I don’t have much time now, just want to say Hi, thanks for all the positive threads. I find it fascinating to hear the experiences of ex-SDA’s, especially your interesting reference to Bible study, marking etc. I only feel sad that that is all you got out of being and SDA.

Hi Friedrich,

Let me clarify a few things about my experience as a SDA, and address other things you have said below.

1. You do not need to feel sad, becuase that is not all I got out of being a SDA. Much of my love for the sriptures and desire to study them came from my experience with the SDA church and reading the Bible, comparing versions, studying Greek. It was my desire to know God’s Truth that led me to the SDA church and to study study study. It is that same desire that eventually led me to the Catholic Church.

2…The biggest lesson I learned while selling books as a colporteur was that I could trust God to take care of me and supply all of my needs. It was the biggest event in my life that taught me real faith in God. One example. We student book sellers were sent to areas to work where all we had was a place to stay. Our physical needs were solely dependent upon donations we recieved from people after giving them the EGW book “Steps to Christ”. Often people would give us a dollar…just as often people would give us nothing. Our food, our gasoline, our toiletries, everything we needed was dependent upon donations received from handing out that book. Not only that but we had to purchase a case of “Steps to Christ” for $10.00 One morning, my gas tank was just about empty, I could have stayed home, but I decided to go out and begin working and prayed to God that He would provide money for me to get gas so I could work the whole day. The first house I went to was not interested in listening to my canvass, so I handed them a “Steps to Christ”. The person asked my how much it cost. I told them it was free, but some folks liked to make a donation. The person handed me $5.00. I went to the second house and the same thing happened. So right away I had $10.00, and went and bought gas. Many things like that happened when I was working as a colporteur. I met with people in their homes and prayed with them and they prayed with me. I tried to provide comfort to people when they told me about problems they were having, or worries for their kids who were getting into dangerous activities. One of my co-workers came upon someone who was just getting ready to commit suicide and stopped them and prayed with them…God used my co-worker to save that despondent person’s life. I learned to trust God and my faith was strengthened in ways most people only dream of…that happened when I was a SDA, not a Catholic.

1. These positive experiences ARE way to many to mention, but I speak for myself only when I say, that being a SDA and belonging to the SDA church was a very big part of my life and formation as a Christian…make no mistake about it. I did not leave because of anger or bitterness…but because of further Bible study and much much much prayer and even many more tears. I cannot seperate the effects that being a SDA had on me from the Christian I am today. It was the majority of my life when I willingly choose Christianity.

THE VERY REASON FOR THE EXISTENCE OF THE SDA CHURCH IS BECAUSE PEOPLE OF ALL DENOMINATIONS WERE WILLING TO LOOK AT ALL THE BOOKS OF THE BIBLE IN CONTEXT.

Every protestant denomination and the Catholic Church will tell you they do the same.

Their conclusions differed from Protestant, Catholic churches. Because of this they were disfellowshiped, like the Waldenses, Albigenses, and all other heretics before them.

So now the SDA church which has been around for approximately 164 years has all the answers, which Christianity for the past 2000 years has missed? Two examples:

1. One of the Bible studies I gave as a SDA to potential converts was that they needed to remove their jewelry, since the Bible “proved” that Christians don’t wear jewelry. This meant that married people had to remove their wedding bands upon joining the SDA church. Around 1980, this we becoming a hot topic of debate within the church and the General Conference, I believe, issued a new statement that it was ok for married people to wear wedding bands. Anyone who is familiar with this issue and has more accurate information regarding it can chime in here. So there was a major debate in need of resoultion, over a very minor issue. I remember when attending a SDA college and dating a girl, my room mate asked me if I was going to give her a watch. Being a new SDA I asked him why in the world would I give her a watch. He said because that is what you give a girl you want to be engaged to. No wedding bands or jewelry, but I remember people spending huge amounts of money on “engagement watches.” What an issue to deal with for those who have this great insight into God’s truth.
2. I remember when I was corresponding with a Union President and the General Conference President regarding abortions being performed in SDA hospitals and the need to end that practice. The Union President wrote to me and said that we can’t really force people to do things against their will and that even if something is wrong people still have free will to choose. Well…yes I guess they do, but does that mean that a church who is soooooo big on promoting the moral law of the 10 commandments (Thou shall not kill), should allow their own institutions to transgress that law? It appears so, especially when your institutions make millions of dollars a year by performing these procedures. It is interesting that SDAs always talk about how wrong it is to force people to go to church on Sunday (and I’m not even aware of anyone being forced to do that), and how wrong it is to force people to not get abortions…but at the time of my correspondence with that Union President, he had articles in the Adventist Review, urging SDAs to write to Bill Clinton urging him to enact legislation that would prohibit and outlaw tobacco. Killing innocents should not be forced upon anyone against their free will…but it appears that forcing 300 million U.S. citizens by law from using tobacco is a noble Godly cause in which to participate. Where is God’s moral law and truth in these things?

Their only recourse was to form a church, the SDA church.

…or to reconcile themselves with The Original Church, The Catholic Church, and devote their efforts to maintaining purity and unity within The Church when it begins to stray from these things.

Hey, I am not going to try and convince you that your esperience was good if it only had bad memories for you. For me, I am thrilled that my church is willing to look at EVERY TEXT IN THE CURRENT BIBLE (not your extra 7 ? books, which often contradict the rest of the Bible). I am not worried about a church, but about God.

Again, my experience was good and positive…it was just not full and complete.

As for the 7 books, you are in error and you can easily find the history of these books…and you should devote some time to research and study regarding those books and how the sacred scriptures were assembled into what we now call The Bible. Don’t worry about a church or God…worry is blind and cannot discern the future. But Jesus sees the end from the beginning and in every difficulty and situation He has a thousand ways to bring relief and guidance of which we aren’t even yet aware.

See (PM, con’t 2)

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

PM, con’t 2

Will chat later, but let me give my real concern: I mentioned in the other thread on Amazing Facts that nations like the Germans produced a Holocaust, the French produced a Revolution/guillotine, the Russians produced a October Revolution. I wondered how this was possible, since all these nations were led by God-fearing spiritual leaders of Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant faith. My conclusion (mine) is that one of the main causes of these dramatic breakaways from good moral values, was BECAUSE THE CHURCHES DID NOT REFLECT THE TRUE VALUES OF THE BIBLE –

You may be a language and Bible teacher, but once again you need to do some research and study in the history of the events you mention above. The horrors you describe above and wonder about were not the result of churches, but the results of centralized government power…the evil of men believing they can control people through the power of the centralized state and the use of force and coercion to carry out their utopian political ideologies. You will need to look at the works of historians to learn about that. It was Christians in many cases who stood up and worked against these evil government powers…Church people…Protestants, Catholics, Jews. These horrors are the result of man relying upon his own power, and we know what is said about power corrupting and absolute power corrupting absolutely.

– I specifically think of the great theologians that started the `Higher Criticism’ way of ripping the Bible apart, of turning spiritual things into literal, and literal into allegory etc. This slowly undermined the faith of the masses, TILL THEY REJECTED THE BIBLE, since it had been reduced to a mere historical literary work. This has affected our whole modern world. So to argue about whether the old, traditional way of Scripture interpretation is good or not, is meaningless to me – I know the results of the modern method – it emptied the churches of Europe, turned them into museums, and is doing the same in my country, which used to be conservative and spiritual.

Unfortunately I seem the same higher criticism' results in this forum, where there is a dilution of basics like the commandments etc. till they are described as merely for the use of the Jews’ or `a curse’ etc. This road leads nowhere but down.

If we can’t agree on these basics, then dialogue is a waste of time.

See you,

Friedrich

No doubt that some theologians have created quite a bit of mischief and hurt Christianity.

So would you like to discuss the Creation story with me? Just look at what the scriptures say, and what we think they say and mean to us? Genesis 1 & 2?

God bless all!!!
Patrick Murebil

 

[Friedrich]

Dear Patrick

Thank you once again for a lovely reply.

I can’t agree more with you that that president was seriously in error, not condemning abortions in an SDA hospital! Where we come from, this would never happen, so I expect our church has its problems in the more liberal countries!

Regarding the invitation to dialogue about the Sabbath/Sunday in Genesis 1 & 2, I see no light in such a dialogue for the following reason:

1. Your church officially says (there are many quotes to this effect, and you have seen them yourself) that there is no evidence in the Bible for keeping Sunday instead of Sabbath. It claims to have the power to do so, based on a `hotline to heaven’ that the Pope has – he even claims to be God on earth! So why argue with him?
2. It also claims proof of Sunday worship from the `church fathers’ from about 100 years AD – that means nothing to me, since there have always been heretical church fathers, even in Jesus’ day. Paul warns about wolves coming into the flock…
3. A lot of forumites rely on semantics – If ye love me, keep My commandments – no TEN, so they are out etc. But that is just nitpicking, pulling the leaves off a beautiful flower in order to make your own flower look better…
4. Some claim that the Sabbath was never repeated in the NT, so Sunday must have been IN. This is ridiculous, since the Jews were legalistic Sabbath keepers – they wanted to kill Jesus for healing a man on the Sabbath! Jesus showed them the true spirit of Sabbath keeping. It is like saying the Catholic Church does not believe in mass because it is not preached from the pulpit regularly…) Neither is Sunday worship mentioned in the NT…
5. Many forumites claim that the law of God is a CURSE, it was done away with etc. It is only a curse when you are on the WRONG side of it (like ordinary state laws too!).

So where does that leave us? To argue about a Sabbath that started in Genesis 2 and up to Isaiah 66:23 in the OT, that goes through Jesus’ life on earth, the apostles’ lives many years after Jesus’ death, even Jesus’ prayer for them in Matthew 24:20 to pray that their flight from the Roman armies in 70 AD would not be on the Sabbath etc…

BUT NOWHERE IN THE OLD OR NEW TESTAMENT CAN YOU SHOW ME ONE VERSE THAT SAYS: REMEMBER SUNDAY TO KEEP IT HOLY, BECAUSE ON IT JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD!

Patrick, as a fellow Christian I have too much respect for you to get embroiled in Higher Criticism when I can’t even get anyone on this forum to acknowledge that the Bible lays great importance on the blessings to be gotten from God’s Holy Day…

So, please give me just ONE LITTLE VERSE that says ANYTHING about REMEMBERING SUNDAY instead of the Sabbath. If you can’t, then please don’t try and bolster Sunday worship by nitpicking about the Biblical Memorial to Creation, and Re-creation – the Sabbath!

May God bless you richly,

Friedrich

 

[MarysRoses]

BUT NOWHERE IN THE OLD OR NEW TESTAMENT CAN YOU SHOW ME ONE VERSE THAT SAYS: REMEMBER SUNDAY TO KEEP IT HOLY, BECAUSE ON IT JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD!

Patrick, as a fellow Christian I have too much respect for you to get embroiled in Higher Criticism when I can’t even get anyone on this forum to acknowledge that the Bible lays great importance on the blessings to be gotten from God’s Holy Day…

So, please give me just ONE LITTLE VERSE that says ANYTHING about REMEMBERING SUNDAY instead of the Sabbath. If you can’t, then please don’t try and bolster Sunday worship by nitpicking about the Biblical Memorial to Creation, and Re-creation – the Sabbath!
Friedrich

Wow…

Won’t ONE Adventist take Patrick up on the idea of studying Genesis verse by verse?

 

[Friedrich]

Hi MarysRoses

We meet again…

Wow…

Won’t ONE Adventist take Patrick up on the idea of studying Genesis verse by verse?

Wow…

Bible Study does not work, MarysRoses, when our definitions of the Bible are different, when some of us say Only the Word, while others say Tradition + the Word + apochrypha… So why study to try and `prove’ that many many many instructions in the Bible to worship on Sabbath are actually not true, when we don’t even have ONE instruction to worship on Sunday?

Bible Study is not a wrestling match, MarysRoses, it is a peek into the heart of God! We kicked Him in the face in Genesis 3, and He is looking for us up to Revelation 22 where John says: ``He who testifies to these things says, `Yes, I am coming soon.’’ Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. Untill then, we at least have the Sabbath, God’s HOLY day, set aside for us to find Him again…

God bless, and goodnight,
Your brother in Christ

Friedrich