why is sunday instead of saturday the sabboth?

[mackbrislawn]

I am curious why sunday rather than saturday is considered the sabboth. My girlfriend believes people celebrate the sabboth in error and that it really should be friday night to saturday night like it was in old testament.

the only biblical evidence I can find is:

This is really very little if any evidence justifying sunday as being the sabboth. This just alludes to them breaking bread on sunday and to lay something aside. It really doesn’t tell us to change the sabboth day from saturday to sunday anywhere and does not make this clear at all.

Maybe the disciples kept the sabboth but in addition did this on sunday as well?

Prince is right, scriptural support for Sunday worship is extremely thin.

Sunday worship is supported primarily by Tradition. So, if you are a Protestant who does not recognize the authority of Tradition, there is no authority for Sunday worship. Reasonably, therefore, you should follow the Seventh Day Advents. Groups such as SDA are simply the logical outcome of neglect of Tradition.

According to the SDA, the Puritans of Massachusetts would put people to death for consistently missing church on Sunday. A Sunday worship that is not supported by scripture! What a paradox.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Happy Sabbath Patrick;

I think that there are many things misunderstood about the Sabbath - and not just by Catholics!! I am glad that I was able to help clarify a bit of it here. I have little time to reply for a day or three, but just wanted to let you know that I am glad you “still call me friend!” I will have a detailed reply asap.

Hi Protestant101,

I see that you are busy on other threads, and just wanted to ask you to not forget about me and sending me your detailed reply that you mention above.

I really do need you to explain to me why the sabbath is not considered an important matter of salvation any more, and why entire chapter references from The Great Controversy are not accurate. I don’t know how I could avoid “cherry picking” except to provide links to every chapter in The Great Controversy, but the chapters to which I supplied links were specific to the topic and discussion in this thread.

I have a B.A. degree in Theology from a SDA college, I have read all of Ellen G. Whites books (some more than once), and studied SDA teachings extensively while I was a member of the church. It was always my understanding that what I asserted in the posts above in this thread was the true and accepted teaching by Seventh day Adventists.

If this is no longer the case, and the sabbath does not hold the importance for SDAs that it once did, and that the writings of Ellen G. White no longer provide accurate SDA teachings, I would sincerely like to know and look forward to your detailed reply to explain where I am in error.

And I am certainly open to the possibility that my understanding is, and had been all these years, incorrect. In fact, it was the discovery that my understanding was incorrect that led me to join the Catholic Church.

I look forward to your reply and clarification!!

God Bless All!!!

 

[Protestant101]

Hi Protestant101,

I see that you are busy on other threads, and just wanted to ask you to not forget about me and sending me your detailed reply that you mention above.

I really do need you to explain to me why the sabbath is not considered an important matter of salvation any more, and why entire chapter references from The Great Controversy are not accurate. I don’t know how I could avoid “cherry picking” except to provide links to every chapter in The Great Controversy, but the chapters to which I supplied links were specific to the topic and discussion in this thread.

I have a B.A. degree in Theology from a SDA college, I have read all of Ellen G. Whites books (some more than once), and studied SDA teachings extensively while I was a member of the church. It was always my understanding that what I asserted in the posts above in this thread was the true and accepted teaching by Seventh day Adventists.

If this is no longer the case, and the sabbath does not hold the importance for SDAs that it once did, and that the writings of Ellen G. White no longer provide accurate SDA teachings, I would sincerely like to know and look forward to your detailed reply to explain where I am in error.

And I am certainly open to the possibility that my understanding is, and had been all these years, incorrect. In fact, it was the discovery that my understanding was incorrect that led me to join the Catholic Church.

I look forward to your reply and clarification!!

God Bless All!!!

Sorry; I didn’t mean to leave you in the dust…

What I was getting at when I said that the Sabbath is so misunderstood by people on both sides of the fence is that people have long been saying you won’t be saved if you don’t keep it, or, conversely, you will be saved if you do keep it.

I have studied for years all of the materials that our Pastors have to do for their degrees, and I have many of our books in my personal library so although I don’t have the piece of Paper, I am certainly no novice in Seventh-day Adventist beliefs - In fact I have studied the major Biblical tenets for 20 years now.

The one thing that really stands out strongly to me is that most ex-Adventists, whether or not they turn to Catholicism, seem to really misunderstand the true nature of Adventist teachings - so much so that I would hardly blame them for leaving!!

I know that you, Brandon, Mary’s Roses, and a few others have gotten offended at me when I said things like “You never did understand our beliefs,” or “You are not an expert just because you graduated from our schools.”

You see, we have not changed anything major about how we believe the Sabbath truth. Adventists have never taught on an official level that ANYONE will be saved by keeping the Sabbath.

I know that you are aware of how we typically teach that 'the law is a mirror," and what is that mirror to reflect? When we have discussed that question briefly, I feel that then it would be the ideal time for me to continue explaining the Sabbath. I will look forward to your reply.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Sorry; I didn’t mean to leave you in the dust…

What I was getting at when I said that the Sabbath is so misunderstood by people on both sides of the fence is that people have long been saying you won’t be saved if you don’t keep it, or, conversely, you will be saved if you do keep it.

I have studied for years all of the materials that our Pastors have to do for their degrees, and I have many of our books in my personal library so although I don’t have the piece of Paper, I am certainly no novice in Seventh-day Adventist beliefs - In fact I have studied the major Biblical tenets for 20 years now.

The one thing that really stands out strongly to me is that most ex-Adventists, whether or not they turn to Catholicism, seem to really misunderstand the true nature of Adventist teachings - so much so that I would hardly blame them for leaving!!

I know that you, Brandon, Mary’s Roses, and a few others have gotten offended at me when I said things like “You never did understand our beliefs,” or “You are not an expert just because you graduated from our schools.”

You see, we have not changed anything major about how we believe the Sabbath truth. Adventists have never taught on an official level that ANYONE will be saved by keeping the Sabbath.

I know that you are aware of how we typically teach that 'the law is a mirror," and what is that mirror to reflect? When we have discussed that question briefly, I feel that then it would be the ideal time for me to continue explaining the Sabbath. I will look forward to your reply.

Hi,

We didn’t misunderstand Adventism. I understand what the SDA church teaches regarding sabbath observance, and the law being the schoolmaster that points out sin in our lives thus leading us to the Saviour. The Catholic Church also teaches that and has much longer than the SDA church.

We also understand what is meant by the sabbath being a test in “the last days”…of which SDAs believe we are living in right now.

So based on the sabbath being a test, as stated in the official SDA beliefs on the official SDA website…what are your thoughts and understanding regarding sabbath vs. sunday worship?

Does it matter which day?
And why?

Thanks in advance for your reply!!

God bless all!!!

 

[Protestant101]

Hi,

We didn’t misunderstand Adventism. I understand what the SDA church teaches regarding sabbath observance, and the law being the schoolmaster that points out sin in our lives thus leading us to the Saviour. The Catholic Church also teaches that and has much longer than the SDA church.

We also understand what is meant by the sabbath being a test in “the last days”…of which SDAs believe we are living in right now.

So based on the sabbath being a test, as stated in the official SDA beliefs on the official SDA website…what are your thoughts and understanding regarding sabbath vs. sunday worship?

Does it matter which day?
And why?

Thanks in advance for your reply!!

God bless all!!!

Sorry; but for this post, I have to be very brief - I am running out of internet time.

There are two points that you missed regarding Adventist teachings on the law; and these two points are really important to a correct understanding of how * that Adventists should understand the Sabbath; and therefore these points would also reflect on what we really teach about it.

The law is not limited to just being a “schoolmaster.” Scripture also alludes to it as reflecting the character of God, and also as acting like a MIRROR to reflect our character, as compared to His.

Therefore, when it comes to the Sabbath - how do we explain this “mirror” concept? It seems to be easier to do with some of the other Ten Commandments - how about the fourth one? What say ye? Your answer may indeed reflect the true level of your understanding about the Sabbath.

As far as the Sabbath question in “the last days;” I am not against discussing it; it is one of the most misunderstood points about the Adventists views on the Sabbath. I think it will be seen as we continue in this line, that we do not teach that even then, the Sabbath will save you.

I am working up to that point, and if you are patient, we will get there. Patrick; I say this as respectfully as I know how. But you stated:

We also understand what is meant by the sabbath being a test in “the last days”…of which SDAs believe we are living in right now.

This is one of the points about the Sabbath that I feel you really do not understand. It is possible that you did indeed experience innapropriate teaching by Adventists about this - but in looking at our official teachings in a comprehensive and contextual setting; I do not see it as ever saying that we are saved by keeping the Sabbath; and I think this is what you are leading up to when you refer to “Sunday vs. Saturday” or the Sabbath test “in the last days.”

I am actually looking forward to this discussion as I feel it has taken on a Christian atmosphere/approach. Truth has nothing to fear from any honest-hearted investigation. May God add His blessing to the study of His Word…*

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Sorry; but for this post, I have to be very brief - I am running out of internet time.

There are two points that you missed regarding Adventist teachings on the law; and these two points are really important to a correct understanding of how * that Adventists should understand the Sabbath; and therefore these points would also reflect on what we really teach about it.

The law is not limited to just being a “schoolmaster.” Scripture also alludes to it as reflecting the character of God, and also as acting like a MIRROR to reflect our character, as compared to His.

Therefore, when it comes to the Sabbath - how do we explain this “mirror” concept? It seems to be easier to do with some of the other Ten Commandments - how about the fourth one? What say ye? Your answer may indeed reflect the true level of your understanding about the Sabbath.*

Hi, And thank you for the civil spirit of dialog!

I agree with you that the Law is a reflection of God’s character, much like a mirror. And for a great part of salvation history, this supplies a great extent of revealing God’s character to His people.

And then, at the fullness of time, God became a human incarnate in the person of Jesus. And we both know that Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, not destory it.

And since Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets, and Jesus is God, we now have a full clear view of the reality of God’s character, and the perfect example as to how we should live and love as human beings!. And to look at the Real God to determine how we are to live and love, is much better than merely looking at a reflection of God in a mirror!!!
Protestant101;4383599:

As far as the Sabbath question in “the last days;” I am not against discussing it; it is one of the most misunderstood points about the Adventists views on the Sabbath. I think it will be seen as we continue in this line, that we do not teach that even then, the Sabbath will save you.

I apologize if my phrasing of my questions appeared that I was saying that SDAs believe that the sabbath will save you. I know SDAs believe that only Jesus saves.

My point was that SDAs teach that the sabbath will be a “matter” of salvation…not the cause of salvation. This is an important distinction. Failing to obey God in the last days, particularly worshiping on sunday as opposed to saturday, will be subject to the judgement and wrath of God.

I look forward to continued discussion of this point.

I am working up to that point, and if you are patient, we will get there. Patrick; I say this as respectfully as I know how. But you stated:

This is one of the points about the Sabbath that I feel you really do not understand. It is possible that you did indeed experience innapropriate teaching by Adventists about this - but in looking at our official teachings in a comprehensive and contextual setting; I do not see it as ever saying that we are saved by keeping the Sabbath; and I think this is what you are leading up to when you refer to “Sunday vs. Saturday” or the Sabbath test “in the last days.”

Again, I will wait for your comments on this for our further discussion.

I honestly cannot remember any SDAs saying that keeping the sabbath is what saves a person…but I did hear many say and believe that not keeping it will cause their souls to be lost if they refuse to believe and follow it after they have been told the “truth” about it…after all, those who recieve the Mark of the Beast ain’t going to Heaven in anybody’s theology.

I am actually looking forward to this discussion as I feel it has taken on a Christian atmosphere/approach. Truth has nothing to fear from any honest-hearted investigation.

Me too!!! And I agree!!!

May God add His blessing to the study of His Word…

God’s blessing in already in the studying of His Word!!!

God bless all!!!

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Wow…

Won’t ONE Adventist take Patrick up on the idea of studying Genesis verse by verse?

No, MarysRoses, I don’t think even one has the nerve to take Patrick up on his offer. You see, You, Patrick, Brandon and I (and many others whose names I do not know) were SDAs. But we weren’t just ordinary SDAs, we were out there giving Bible studies, doing the Revelation seminars, majoring and minoring in theology at SDA universities. We were knowledgable, educated, well read, EGW quoting, evangelizing SDAs. Then we converted to Catholicism. If we were just plain ordinary SDAs then they could shake their heads and say we were deceived and had fallen off the path of the Loud Cry, and they would try to argue us back into the denomination. But because we were informed SDAs who chose to become informed Catholics, they will never dare to take Patrick up on his offer.

Marsha

 

[Marsha_Adams]

This is one of the points about the Sabbath that I feel you really do not understand. It is possible that you did indeed experience innapropriate teaching by Adventists about this - but in looking at our official teachings in a comprehensive and contextual setting; I do not see it as ever saying that we are saved by keeping the Sabbath; and I think this is what you are leading up to when you refer to “Sunday vs. Saturday” or the Sabbath test “in the last days.”

Prot101:

Sunday-keeping is not yet the mark of the beast, and will not be until the decree goes forth causing men to worship this idol sabbath. The time will come when this day will be the test, but that time has not come yet.—Ellen G. White Manuscript 118, 1899.

SDAs may not teach that you are saved by keeping Saturday, they certainly do teach that you will be lost by keeping Sunday - which seems to me to be a very fine line. Also SDAs certainly do teach that Sunday keeping will be the mark of the beast and will be the test. If that test is failed? Well then, salvation is lost.

But where in the Bible and using the Bible Alone, does it define Sunday keeping as the mark of the beast?

Marsha

 

[Protestant101]

Prot101:

But where in the Bible and using the Bible Alone, does it define Sunday keeping as the mark of the beast?

Marsha

You would never accept “bible alone” for anything so that is a waste of time.

 

[Protestant101]

My point was that SDAs teach that the sabbath will be a “matter” of salvation…not the cause of salvation. This is an important distinction. Failing to obey God in the last days, particularly worshiping on sunday as opposed to saturday, will be subject to the judgement and wrath of God.

I look forward to continued discussion of this point.

I honestly cannot remember any SDAs saying that keeping the sabbath is what saves a person…but I did hear many say and believe that not keeping it will cause their souls to be lost if they refuse to believe and follow it after they have been told the “truth” about it…after all, those who recieve the Mark of the Beast ain’t going to Heaven in anybody’s theology.

OK; lets start at the beginning…kind of like Genesis.

Here is our official belief about the Sabbath, as stated by The General Conference:

20. The Sabbath:

The beneficent Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation. The fourth commandment of God’s unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God’s kingdom. The Sabbath is God’s perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God’s creative and redemptive acts.

(Gen. 2:1-3; Ex. 20:8-11; Luke 4:16; Isa. 56:5, 6; 58:13, 14; Matt. 12:1-12; Ex. 31:13-17; Eze. 20:12, 20; Deut. 5:12-15; Heb. 4:1-11; Lev. 23:32; Mark 1:32.)

**

I would like to ask you Patrick, how do you see this statement? Is it fair? Is it accurate? Is it prejudiced? Is it acceptable? What would best describe SDA views, as stated therein, to you? I will allow a few days for other forum members to also answer this question. **

 

[eva6206213]

~
thank you for the sharing!

 

[Church_Militant]

You would never accept “bible alone” for anything so that is a waste of time.

Then why are you here?

Look…YOU’RE one of the guys who keep telling us that all that you believe comes from the Bible, even though, time and again, you have not been able to make your case for that errant new wind of doctrine of men from the Bible itself without ripping passages out of context and then offering your interpretations of them that require almost Olympic style mental and theological gymnastics to accept, so don’t blame faithful Catholics for not buying into it.

Furthermore, there is very ample New Testament documentation for the fact that the church ceased to worship on Saturday and adopted Sunday, (the first day of the week) as its day of worship in honor of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

St. Paul, a Jewish Christian and scholar even made this point very clearly in Romans 14: [1] As for the man who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not for disputes over opinions.
[2] One believes he may eat anything, while the weak man eats only vegetables.
[3] Let not him who eats despise him who abstains, and let not him who abstains pass judgment on him who eats; for God has welcomed him.
**[4] Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Master is able to make him stand.
[5] One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike. Let every one be fully convinced in his own mind.
[6] He who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. He also who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while he who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.
[7] None of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself.
[8] If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord; so then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s.
[9] For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
[10] Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God; **

Furthermore, the SDA has more than enough errors of its own to deal with.

How many times have they set a date for the return of Christ in clear contravention of the New Testament scriptures so far? What is 3 times now?

And STILL they teach that Jesus and Michael the archangel are one and the same person, in plain contravention to the opening passage of the Gospel of St. John.

So let’s don’t come off with all that attitude P101, because it’s not the Catholics who have it wrong, but your own error ridden Seventh Day Adventist denomination.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Marsha_Adams]

You would never accept “bible alone” for anything so that is a waste of time.

You say that because you cannot do it. If the Bible teaches that Sunday keeping is or will be the Mark of the Beast prove it. To make it easy for you, in addition to the Bible use any extra-biblical source you want with the exception of EGW.

Marsha

 

[FollowTheWay]

The sabbath was observed on saturday until the 3rd century A.D. when all religions in rome were merged together. Scripture also tells us not to worry about new moons, festivals, sabbath days because they are a shadow of things to come.

 

[Friedrich]

Dear Marsha Adams

I haven’t been on this forum for a long time, but just glanced through Patrick and Protestant 101’s lovely Christian dialogue.

Please don’t spoil it all by getting aggressive now. Give them a chance, and you will find the answers which you already know anyway.

As for being scared to go through Genesis 1 & 2 with Patrick – why be scared of studying the Bible? Patrick is trying to make the point that there were 6 days of Creation week, and then a mysterious 7th period of time' which was NOT a literal day, because the words evening and morning’ are missing. He clearly stated this in an early dialogue with Brandon, I think. So to wade patiently through weeks of dialogue to get to a point that doesn’t make sense if you read Genesis 2:1,2 (`Thus the heavens and the earth were COMPLETED in all their vast array. By the seventh day God had FINISHED the work he HAD BEEN DOING; so on the seventh day he RESTED from all his work.’’).
If God had been patiently creating this earth for 6 days, and He COMPLETED/FINISHED/RESTED on the 7th day, what else could it mean but a literal day, Saturday, the seventh day of Creation Week? You really would have to be stretching things to come to any other conclusion!
This you don’t like, because it means that ALL MANKIND were to REMEMBER this day as memorial to God our Creator, and not just the Jews 2000 years later.

Please be patient and kind, let Patrick and Protestant 101 progres in their interesting dialogue – we can only learn from each other that way. God bless

Friedrich

 

[Protestant101]

Dear Marsha Adams

I haven’t been on this forum for a long time, but just glanced through Patrick and Protestant 101’s lovely Christian dialogue.

Please don’t spoil it all by getting aggressive now. Give them a chance, and you will find the answers which you already know anyway.

I appreciate hearing this, that others do notice when God’s children are actually doing something good - even when they don’t agree.

To me, the seventh-day Sabbath has always been such a blessing - I have been both shocked and surprised at the attacks on this beautiful Christian doctrine, when I first heard/read them years ago. I have always thought this to be one of the best Bible doctrines, not really because it makes me friends; but because of the Friend that this amazing fact of the seventh-day Sabbath speaks of. What A Friend We Have In Jesus is the main message that the Sabbath has spoken to me.

Patrick has raised some great questions; and I am sincerely looking forward to his reply to my last post.

 

[Church_Militant]

The sabbath was observed on saturday until the 3rd century A.D. when all religions in rome were merged together.

Scripture also tells us not to worry about new moons, festivals, sabbath days because they are a shadow of things to come.Documentation? Because this is a complete fiction.

Prove your statement with links to an authoritative and verifiable source or all you’ve done is add more unscriptural and inaccurate rhetoric to the discussion.

In short. PROVE IT!

The bolded portion is all I’m talking about.

The rest is just your theological gymnastics twisting a passage that I provided earlier and which in the context which I also provided, does not support your interpretation and application at all. http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/emo-epicfail.png

 

[Church_Militant]

Aggression my foot!

The fact is that P101 made several grossly uncharitable and inaccurate comments about our most holy Catholic faith and when confronted with facts he apparently chooses to try to portray himself as taking the higher road while perpetuating his anti-Catholic polemics.

There is little good served by perpetuating this kind of apologetics practice volley when the facts have been presented and all the SDA rah rah will not change the fact that they are an errant modern cult that attempts to Judaize people into a return to Jewish law instead of adhering to the plainly stated evidence of the New Testament.

An objective examination of their teachings will pretty quickly show that they are borderline Christian if at all, and that most of their evangelistic material consists of vitriolic and polemic anti-Catholic propaganda.

This Saturday sabbath discussion is their one-trick pony and their primary evangelistic opening. Different and deficient gospel anyone? (Galatians 1:8)

 

[Protestant101]

Aggression my foot!

The fact is that P101 made several grossly uncharitable and inaccurate comments about our most holy Catholic faith and when confronted with facts he apparently chooses to try to portray himself as taking the higher road while perpetuating his anti-Catholic polemics.

There is little good served by perpetuating this kind of apologetics practice volley when the facts have been presented and all the SDA rah rah will not change the fact that they are an errant modern cult that attempts to Judaize people into a return to Jewish law instead of adhering to the plainly stated evidence of the New Testament.

An objective examination of their teachings will pretty quickly show that they are borderline Christian if at all, and that most of their evangelistic material consists of vitriolic and polemic anti-Catholic propaganda.

This Saturday sabbath discussion is their one-trick pony and their primary evangelistic opening. Different and deficient gospel anyone? (Galatians 1:8)

Hello ChurchMilitant

My favorite “one trick pony” is “Christ and Him crucified.” If a doctrine takes away from, or adds to this theme; it is not a Christian doctrine. I believe with all my heart that the Biblical seventh-day Sabbath does meet this minimum requirement, and more. “God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of Jesus Christ my Lord.” (Gal.6:14).

“There is one great central truth to be kept ever before the mind in the searching of the Scriptures: Christ and Him crucified. Every other truth is invested with power and influence, corresponding to it’s relation to this theme.”

The creation account, which Patrick and I have begun discussing is directly connected to this theme of “Christ and Him crucified;” and as I mentioned, the Sabbath is a part of all this. Therefore, I am doubly looking forward to continuing this topic, in the line that Patrick and I have begun. You will certainly be welcome to lend us your opinions anytime. May God bless you.

 

[djconklin]

The sabbath was observed on saturday until the 3rd century A.D. when all religions in rome were merged together.

Actually most Christians even as late as the 5th century still kept the Sabbath.

Scripture also tells us not to worry about new moons, festivals, sabbath days because they are a shadow of things to come.

That is the common misinterpretation of what Col. 2:16-7 says. See 666man.net//Colossians_2_16-17_By_David_Conklin/colintro.html for the correct concept. Paul was looking at the act of eating and drinking on the days that are then mentioned. He was telling the believers at Colossae not to let the outsiders judge them for what they were doing. He wasn’t talking about whether or not one should be observing them.