why is sunday instead of saturday the sabboth?

[djconklin]

That isn’t good logic you know? She never called herself a nut either, but don’t people have a right to their opinion? They do don’t they? I say they can say anything they want. Now if they are trying to prove that she was a prophet that would be a different thing. She surly wasn’t that. Saying something doesn’t make it true. Point in case 22 October 1844.

Actually, it is good logic and factual. People may call her nuts, but when I see that her foremost critic while she was alive called her “a good Christian”–quess who I believe?

I haven’t seen any proof that she wasn’t a prophet so it is highly premature to say that she wasn’t one and she didn’t predict anything on Oct. 22, 1844.

It sounds like you have been lied to.

 

[djconklin]

Remember that I have read EGW’s “The Great Controversy”, so no one can tell me that you guys aren’t a-Cs.

…

I won’t hold my breath though

I’m still waiting for the proof. I guess the last line is good advice.

 

[guanophore]

Wikepdia is largely run by activists, and does not necessarily reflect Adventist beliefs on “God’s Law.”

This has got to be one of the lamest responses I have ever seen to a carefully researched and well organized post.

 

[guanophore]

The 10C are the moral law which tells us what is sinful, **there’s nothing sinful in the “Mosiac law.” **The “Mosaic law” details (in part) how to deal with sin (after we have violated the moral law).

Such a statement absolutely boggles the mind. Jesus and the Apostles adopted all of the Mosaic law on the teachings of hospitality, loving one’s neighbor, and right relationship with others, acting in love.

 

[happilycatholic]

Happily:

No, that is not an SDA doctrine.

Marsha

That’s new to me. They repeat, “God’s Law” like a mantra. As if it weren’t ALL God’s Law.

Doug Bachelor teaches this in his book, The Richest Caveman. It also seems to be a mainstream belief in my friends.

They tell me if you cannot separate Mosaic Law and God’s Law. Their position is that you cannot take the Commandments out of the Law and nail the rest to the cross. Bachelor’s position is that this is a common misconception within the catholic faith.

Then of course they do just that. They take what they want from Mosaic Law, keep the Commandments of course and add a few visions and Viola! You have SDAsm.

 

[happilycatholic]

Further on the subject of Mosaic Law. In the first place, my distinction was in Mosaic Law and the Ten Commandments.

The obvious is true. The Ten Commandments WERE included in the books of Moses. However, the Ten Commandments were written by the Hand of God and reiterated in the NT and by Jesus Himself. The catechism do not speak of them as one and the same law.

Both are God’s Law, that is just a simple fact. I don’t mind that SDAs on this thread continue to try and take the position that Mosaic Law and God’s Law are one and the same. Catholics do not make any kind of distinction between Mosaic Law and “God’s Law” because Mosaic Law IS God’s Law.

The Seventh Day Adventist Church is the only faith I know of that says, “Mosaic Law and “God’s Law”” cannot be divided. I’m a little alerted to the fact that their are former SDAs on this forum who still hold to this belief. You continue to go around in circles to try to prove the difference and then you say they are one and the same.

Once again, since God’s Law is not a term used by the catechism, we are speaking of The Ten Commandments and Mosaic Law. While they are together in authorship and location in scripture, they are different. Especially the ceremonial portion of Mosaic Law. Those were the laws Jesus spoke of as a shadow of things to come. Those are predominantly the laws nailed to the cross.

And to whomever said that the catechism is a “guide” or whatever, you may want to take that to your parish. While it is a guide it is also our interpretation of our faith. It is where we as catholics go when we need an interpretation of something scriptural.

The terms “Law of Moses”, “Mosaic Law”, and the term “Ten Commandments” are all found in the catechism. “God’s Law” is not. I would think that is because it is commonly known that all Biblical law is God’s law.

This is what SDAs do. You can read The Richest Caveman and you will see Doug Bachelor do the same. He talks in circles about this very same issue.

 

[SDA2RC]

Wikepdia is largely run by activists, and does not necessarily reflect Adventist beliefs on “God’s Law.”

Protestant… I can see your posts today!!!

I did not quote Wikipedia to show Adventist beliefs… but mainstream beliefs of Judaism and Christianity… you can get the same results regarding the Mitzvah from the Jewish Encyclopedia.

In my opinion, Adventists are outside the mainstream of Christianity, therefore I would not necessarily expect it to reflect your beliefs.

 

[SDA2RC]

Correct, with the cavet that there’s no such thing as “Mosaic law” in the sense that he made it up. The 10C were written on stone, by God and placed inside the Ark. What is commonly called the “Mosaic law” was written by Moses, we don’t know one what–possibly animal skin and was placed outside the Ark. The 10C are the moral law which tells us what is sinful, there’s nothing sinful in the “Mosiac law.” The “Mosaic law” details (in part) how to deal with sin (after we have violated the moral law).

DJ,
The Mosaic law as understood by Christians historically and by Jews is the Moral (10 Commandments), Civil, Health, Preistly, and Ceremonial laws delivered to the people through Moses. God was the AUTHOR of all of them, not just the Ten Commandments.

The were sinful things in the Mosaic Law, outside of the 10 Commandments, for example, incest, profaning Holy Days, and hundreds of others.

Your analysis above in not correct.

 

[happilycatholic]

As has been said here, Jesus is the New Covenant. I’m curious as to why some Christians are still adhering to the Law of Moses. The New Covenant changes many things. Why is it that this particular practice (Sunday worship) is so hard to grasp.

If you are going to follow Saturday Sabbath doctrine, why are you not still offering animal sacrifice?

As Saturday Sabbath keepers you appear to be following Moses instead of Jesus and His Apostles.

God chose the day on which to perfect His Covenant with us.

Here is my original post. As you can see, I was asking why Christians were still worshipping on Saturday. I also asked if you were going to worship on Saturday, why not keep the rest of the Law and offer animal sacrifice. All are a part of the Mosaic Law. Part the religious duties, part the ceremonial. I did not make any distiction between Mosiac Law and “God’s Law”. Because it is all God’s Law. However there is a distinction between the Commandments and the Law. Paul makes this distinction several times in his epistles. Obviously, he is speaking of ceremonial law.
**
We as Christians are not bound to the Sabbath. We are bound to keep the Lord’s Day. But if you choose to keep the Sabbath how do you get around keeping the rest of Mosaic Law? Since you are keeping the Sabbath, what about the law surrounding the keeping of the Sabbath (as a day of worship)?
**
The fact is, SDAs are thoroughly confused. They keep parts of it because they cannot separate it. They contend that they do by saying, “Mosaic Law and God’s Law”. Because the Commandments say, “Keep the Sabbath Holy”, SDAs contend that this is “God’s Law” but because they can’t make animal sacrifices and they claim to be Christian, they say it is separate from “Mosaic Law”. But then they choose to keep the OT clean-unclean meats doctrine. What about other forms of impurity?
**
However, clearly they do not know the difference between Mosaic Law and the Commandment Law and the New Covenant. And it’s clear in some of the posts here that lingers.
**
As catholics we have no problem separating Mosaic Law from the Ten Commandments because Jesus reitereated the Commandments consistantly throughout the NT. The ceremonial laws of the Old Covenant have been nailed to the cross. That is not to say we don’t keep some of the other laws regarding relationships, tithes, marriage, divorce, etc. Jesus and His Apostles taught these things.
**
There seems to be some residue left in former SDAs here on this forum. This “God’s Law” doctrine is why they are confused. They call the Commandments “God’s Eternal Law” which is correct, however they use it as if to say because it’s God’s Law we cannot separate it from Mosaic Law and hence, the doctrine of unclean meat and other doctrines within the church. And further, they use that against catholics by stating that we changed the day of worship.
**
I hate to say this, but it makes me suspicious of folks who talk in circles to try to prove a point that is of another faith.
**
The catechism does not take the place of your priest or your spiritual advisor but it does offer a very complete study on the catholic faith. It is not just a reference book. That too seems to be residue insomuch as SDAs reject the teaching of the Magisterium as binding on us as catholics. Also suspect.
**
Doug Bachelor does this very same thing in his book.

 

[djconklin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by djconklin
The 10C are the moral law which tells us what is sinful, there’s nothing sinful in the “Mosiac law.” The “Mosaic law” details (in part) how to deal with sin (after we have violated the moral law).

Such a statement absolutely boggles the mind. Jesus and the Apostles adopted all of the Mosaic law on the teachings of hospitality, loving one’s neighbor, and right relationship with others, acting in love.

The 10C’s are based on the command to love–remember that Jesus cited two texts from the Torah when asked about the Law. So, when we do not love God and our fellow man we violate the spirit of the 10C’s. When we break the letter of the 10C’s we break the spirit of the Law as well.

 

[djconklin]

I did not make any distiction between Mosiac Law and “God’s Law”.

The Bible does. Only the 10C’s were written on stone (symbolizing their permanence) placed inside the Ark, under the mercy seat. The ceremonial laws, etc. were rolled up (written on skins, symbolizing that they were transitory) and placed out side.

 

[djconklin]

The Mosaic law as understood by Christians historically and by Jews is the Moral (10 Commandments), Civil, Health, Preistly, and Ceremonial laws delivered to the people through Moses. God was the AUTHOR of all of them, not just the Ten Commandments.

No one has disputed who was the author–the point is irrelevant.

The were sinful things in the Mosaic Law, outside of the 10 Commandments, for example, incest, profaning Holy Days, and hundreds of others.

Incest is covered under "Thou shalt not commit adultery. The “Mosaic law” made explicit what that was.

Your analysis above in not correct.

Maybe too simplified (to get the point across), but it is correct.

 

[djconklin]

The Ten Commandments WERE included in the books of Moses. However, the Ten Commandments were written by the Hand of God and reiterated in the NT and by Jesus Himself. The catechism do not speak of them as one and the same law.

Excellant points!

I don’t mind that SDAs on this thread continue to try and take the position that Mosaic Law and God’s Law are one and the same.

I don’t, such a position is contrary to Scripture.

 

[djconklin]

Bachelor’s position is that this is a common misconception within the catholic faith.

…They take what they want from Mosaic Law, keep the Commandments of course and add a few visions and Viola! You have SDAsm.

Common misconception of the development of SDA teachings and doctrine. No SDA doctrine was created from the visions of EGW. See adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html and note that at the end each there is a listing of biblical texts which support it.

We also don’t “take what we want” from the Mosiac law. Note that in the NT they commnaded the Gentiles to not eat things that were strangled (a provision of the Mosaic law)–did they take what they wanted too?

 

[happilycatholic]

Common misconception of the development of SDA teachings and doctrine. No SDA doctrine was created from the visions of EGW. See adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html and note that at the end each there is a listing of biblical texts which support it.

We also don’t “take what we want” from the Mosiac law. Note that in the NT they commnaded the Gentiles to not eat things that were strangled (a provision of the Mosaic law)–did they take what they wanted too?

Hi DJ:

The reason I say you take what you want stems from my original question which by the way is a genuine one, not a sarcastic one. You worship on the Sabbath, but you do not follow the ceremonial law surrounding the keeping of the Sabbath such as animal sacrifice. You follow the clean-unclean doctrine with regard to meats but you don’t follow the rest of the doctrine with regard to women who have given birth and are menstrating and other aspects.

I just wonder what the justification within the church is for this.

 

[SDA2RC]

Define church. We aren’t talking about the buildings, the organization or the people. We are talking about specific teachings. We believe that Christ is the one who saves us from our sins, just as you do–SDA’s are not anti-catholic.

DJ,
Anti-Catholicism is a generic term for discrimination, hostility or prejudice directed at the Roman Catholic Church or its members. The term also applies to the religious persecution of Catholics.

Adventism as a religion, and many of its members, are definitely Anti-Catholic. You can deny it all you want… but the proof is in your doctrines, revelation seminars, books, splinter groups, members, etc. While I am aware of no persecution other than local family events etc., the hostility and prejudice is certainly there.

Here is a simple example: The term “Papist” being used throughout the writings of the Adventist Church to describe Catholics. This is a derogatory term… much like a racial slur.

From Merriam Webster - PapistEtymology:Middle French or New Latin; Middle French papiste, from pape pope; New Latin papista, from Late Latin papa popeDate:1534 **usually disparaging **: roman catholic
— papist **adjective *usually disparaging

---

Same thing can be said of the Term “Popery” which is again spread throughout the SDA Church’s writings and culture.

Main Entryop·ery Pronunciation: \ˈpō-p(ə-)rē\ Function:noun Date:circa 1534 disparaging : roman catholicism

Yet… the Adventist books are full of this, lets just take EGW, the Church’s Prophetess and most widely read books in the SDA Church:Foremost among those who were called to lead the church from the darkness of popery into the light of a purer faith, stood Martin Luther.
egwtext.whiteestate.org/gc/gc7.html**The papists who had left the study of the Scriptures to the priests and monks **now called upon them to come forward and refute the new teachings.
egwtext.whiteestate.org/gc/gc10.html**The papacy has attempted to change the law of God. **The second commandment, forbidding image worship, has been dropped from the law, and the fourth commandment has been so changed as to authorize the observance of the first instead of the seventh day as the Sabbath. But papists urge, as a reason for omitting the second commandment, that it is unnecessary, being included in the first, and that they are giving the law exactly as God designed it to be understood. This cannot be the change foretold by the prophet. An intentional, deliberate change is presented: “He shall * think * to change the times and the law.” The change in the fourth commandment exactly fulfills the prophecy. For this the only authority claimed is that of the church. Here the papal power openly sets itself above God.
egwtext.whiteestate.org/gc/gc25.htmlthe worshipers of the beast will be distinguished by their efforts to tear down the Creator’s memorial, to exalt the institution of Rome. **It was in behalf of the Sunday that popery first asserted its arrogant claims; **and its first resort to the power of the state was to compel the observance of Sunday as “the Lord’s day.”
egwtext.whiteestate.org/gc/gc25.htmlThe papist can see that they are deceiving themselves, willingly closing their eyes to the facts in the case. As the movement for Sunday enforcement gains favor, he rejoices, feeling assured that it will eventually bring the whole Protestant world under the banner of Rome. Romanists declare that “the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the [Catholic] Church.”–Mgr. Segur, * Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today, * page 213. The enforcement of Sundaykeeping on the part of Protestant churches is an enforcement of the **worship of the papacy–of the beast. **Those who, understanding the claims of the fourth
commandment, choose to observe the false instead of the true Sabbath are thereby paying homage to that power by which alone it is commanded. But in the very act of enforcing a religious duty by secular power, the churches would themselves form an image to the beast; hence the enforcement of Sundaykeeping in the United States would be an enforcement of the worship of the beast and his image. egwtext.whiteestate.org/gc/gc25.html

Continued…

 

[happilycatholic]

Common misconception of the development of SDA teachings and doctrine. No SDA doctrine was created from the visions of EGW. See adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html and note that at the end each there is a listing of biblical texts which support it.

We also don’t “take what we want” from the Mosiac law. Note that in the NT they commnaded the Gentiles to not eat things that were strangled (a provision of the Mosaic law)–did they take what they wanted too?

In my first response I actually mistakenly thought you were admitting the EGW doctrines.

If your church does not take their doctrines from EGW can you explain the doctrine of belief that you are the Remnant church as manifested by EGW’s ability to prophesy?

Your church was founded on her visions that the prophesy of the Oct. 22, 1844 date given as the end-time was actally a mistake in the event and not the date.

Did she not have a vision wherein she saw Jesus going into the Holy Place to begin investigative judgement? Which is also an EGW doctrine?

Both the Remant church manifested in EGW prophesy and the investigative judgement doctrines are both listed in the list of Fundamental Beliefs on your General Conference website.

 

[happilycatholic]

Adventism as a religion, and many of its members, are definitely Anti-Catholic. You can deny it all you want… but the proof is in your doctrines, revelation seminars, books, splinter groups, members, etc. While I am aware of no persecution other than local family events etc., the hostility and prejudice is certainly there.

I totally agree with this although SDAs are never going to come out and admit it. It just won’t happen.

 

[SDA2RC]

Quotes for DJ Showing Anti-Catholicism continued -
By every means at their command they will endeavor to suppress the discussion of these vital questions. The church appeals to the strong arm of civil power, and, in this work, papists and Protestants unite. As the defenders of truth refuse to honor the Sunday-sabbath, some of them will be thrust into prison, some will be exiled, some will be treated as slaves. To human wisdom all this now seems impossible; but as the restraining Spirit of God shall be withdrawn from men, and they shall be under the control of Satan, who hates the divine precepts, there will be strange developments.
egwtext.whiteestate.org/gc/gc38.htmlThe sign, or seal, of God is revealed in the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath, the Lord’s memorial of creation. . . . The mark of
the beast is the opposite of this–the observance of the first day of the week.
egwlists.whiteestate.org/pipermail/devotional/2004/000024.html“I saw all that ‘would not receive the mark of the Beast, and of his Image, in their foreheads or in their hands,’ could not buy or sell. I saw that the number (666) of the Image Beast was made up; and that it was the beast that changed the Sabbath, and the Image Beast had followed on after, and kept the Pope’s, and not God’s Sabbath. And all we were required to do, was to give up God’s Sabbath, and keep the Pope’s and then we should have the mark of the Beast, and of his Image.”
whiteestate.org/books/egwhc/EGWHCc18.html It is true that there are real Christians in the Roman Catholic communion. Thousands in that church are serving God according to the best light they have. They are not allowed access to His word, and therefore they do not discern the truth. ** They have never seen the contrast between a living heart service and a round of mere forms and ceremonies. God looks with pitying tenderness upon these souls, educated as they are in a faith that is delusive and unsatisfying. He will cause rays of light to penetrate the dense darkness that surrounds them. He will reveal to them the truth as it is in Jesus, and many will yet take their position with His people.
** But Romanism as a system is no more in harmony with the gospel of Christ now than at any former period in her history. The Protestant churches are in great darkness, or they would discern the signs of the times. The Roman Church is far-reaching in her plans and modes of operation. She is employing every device to extend her influence and increase her power in preparation for a fierce and determined conflict to regain control of the world, to re-establish persecution, and to undo all that Protestantism has done.
whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc35.htmlAs America, the land of religious liberty, shall unite with the papacy in forcing the conscience and compelling men to honor the false Sabbath,
the people of every country on the globe will be led to follow her example.

Foreign nations will follow the example of the United States. Though she leads out, yet the same crisis will come upon our people in all parts of the world.

Nations will be stirred to their very center. Support will be withdrawn from those who proclaim God’s only standard of righteousness, the only sure test of character. And all who will not bow to the decree of the national councils and obey the national laws to exalt the Sabbath
instituted by the man of sin, to the disregard of God’s holy day, will feel, **not the oppressive power of popery alone, but of the Protestant world, the image of the beast. **
egwlists.whiteestate.org/pipermail/devotional/2004/000027.html

This is only what I have available online, I can certainly get more quotes if needed, but I think that it is clear to any unbiased reader that the demeaning, bigoted, and derogatory way that the SDA Church talks about Christ’s Church. You can have differences without being demeaning and derogatory.

It is funny that Adventists claim that it is the Catholic Church that is so oppressive and is going to presecute Sabbath keepers etc, however, you will never find hate like this about Adventistism in our writings.

 

[SDA2RC]

Incest is covered under "Thou shalt not commit adultery. The “Mosaic law” made explicit what that was.

Where in the 10 Commandments does it say you cant Marry your cousin?