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SDA2RC
Guest
Ok… what do you mean by inferred?
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Marsha_Adams
Guest
But, it is more than likely that we have a Church Precept demanding weekly Sunday Mass for just that reason. The Precept requiring weekly Mass Attendance first appeared around the time of Constantine.
The following link will take you to the Catholic Encyclopedia article “Commandments of the Church”. It will give you the history of the precepts.
newadvent.org/cathen/04154a.htm
Marsha
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happilycatholic
Guest
Mass is rooted in Scripture (commandment) To not attend is a sin. Sin is against God. God commanded it in scripture, to disobey is a sin. See how that works?
**The Church cannot create sin. It is already given to us in the Commandments. If it weren’t then not attending mass wouldn’t be a sin, but the Church has made it very clear that it is a sin. The Church recognizes it but you don’t. **
Hmmmm, why does it not surprise me that some folks don’t obey and sin because they choose to interpret the Scripture on their own?
**Sin **is the deliberate violation of God’s law.
Although sin promises illusory goods or happiness, it
results in harm to the sinner, who is always the primary
victim of sin.The Church teaches that there are
two kinds of sin: mortal and venial. **Mortal sin **is a
deliberate and free choice of something known to be
seriously wrong that destroys our friendship with
God and separates us from him (cf. 1 Jn 5:16-17).All of
the following three conditions must be met for a sin
to be mortal: (1) it must be something serious; (2) it
must be done with sufficient knowledge of its gravity;
and (3) it must be done with sufficient freedom of
the will. **Venial sin **is a minor offense against God’s
law that hurts our relationship with God but does not
destroy it.
**The Church cannot create sin. It is already given to us in the Commandments. If it weren’t then not attending mass wouldn’t be a sin, but the Church has made it very clear that it is a sin. The Church recognizes it but you don’t. **
Hmmmm, why does it not surprise me that some folks don’t obey and sin because they choose to interpret the Scripture on their own?
**Sin **is the deliberate violation of God’s law.
Although sin promises illusory goods or happiness, it
results in harm to the sinner, who is always the primary
victim of sin.The Church teaches that there are
two kinds of sin: mortal and venial. **Mortal sin **is a
deliberate and free choice of something known to be
seriously wrong that destroys our friendship with
God and separates us from him (cf. 1 Jn 5:16-17).All of
the following three conditions must be met for a sin
to be mortal: (1) it must be something serious; (2) it
must be done with sufficient knowledge of its gravity;
and (3) it must be done with sufficient freedom of
the will. **Venial sin **is a minor offense against God’s
law that hurts our relationship with God but does not
destroy it.
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SDA2RC
Guest
God did not command weekly Mass Attendance in scripture.
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happilycatholic
Guest
Well, here’s the popular definition of infer:
To conclude from evidence or premises.
**2. **To reason from circumstance; surmise: We can infer that his motive in publishing the diary was less than honorable.
**3. **To lead to as a consequence or conclusion: “Socrates argued that a statue inferred the existence of a sculptor” Academy.
**4. **To hint; imply.
*v.*intr. To draw inferences.
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happilycatholic
Guest
Then why would the Church say it is a sin to not attend mass?
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happilycatholic
Guest
Well Marsha, all I can say is I’m sorry that you believe you go to mass (or not) because the Church made it a rule. You should pray on that and ask the Holy Spirit to place His Grace on your heart so that you are doing it according to God’s Will not the Church’s will.
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SDA2RC
Guest
Because the Church in her Spiritual wisdom saw that weekly Mass attendance was beneficial to the spiritual life and decided it was a moral obligation. She then excercised her authority, which is not dependent on scripture, but on Christ alone… to bind Christians to Mass attendance…
Its beautiful really…
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SDA2RC
Guest
I don’t think Marsha ever said she goes to mass because it is a rule. She said that it is a sin to miss mass because it is a precept of the Church.
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adventistnomore
Guest
HappyCatholic,
You’re right to note that the Church does not create disciplines arbitrarily. The New Testament provides a seminal theology of “Sunday.” It is the day of the resurrection and new beginnings, a day of joy compared to the Sabbath of sadness the day before. Upon this basis, Christians have always recognized a basis for Sunday festivity.
Brandon & Marsha,
You are also right. Aquinas distinguishes between the moral and ceremonial aspects of the Third Commandment:
The precept about hallowing the Sabbath, understood literally, is partly moral and partly ceremonial. It is a moral precept in the point of commanding man to aside a certain time to be given to Divine things. . . But, in so far as this precept specializes the time as a sign representing the Creation of the world, it is a ceremonial precept. (Summa Theologica, Question 122, Article 4)
Insofar as Sunday fulfills the moral essence of the command (to set aside time for worship), it is rooted in the third commandment. However:
In the New Law the observance of the Lord’s day took the place of the observance of the Sabbath, not by virtue of the precept but by the institution of the Church and the custom of Christian people. For this observance is not figurative, as was the observance of the Sabbath in the Old Law. Hence the prohibition to work on the Lord’ day is not so strict as on the Sabbath: and certain works are permitted on the Lord’s day which were forbidden on the Sabbath, such as the cooking of food and so forth. (Summa Theologica, Question 122, Article 4)
Aquinas himself distinguishes Sunday observance from the observation of the Third Commandment, at least on some level. Catholics are not “bound” to the Third Commandment, as written in Ex. or Deut (“ont he seventh day”).
You’re right to note that the Church does not create disciplines arbitrarily. The New Testament provides a seminal theology of “Sunday.” It is the day of the resurrection and new beginnings, a day of joy compared to the Sabbath of sadness the day before. Upon this basis, Christians have always recognized a basis for Sunday festivity.
Brandon & Marsha,
You are also right. Aquinas distinguishes between the moral and ceremonial aspects of the Third Commandment:
The precept about hallowing the Sabbath, understood literally, is partly moral and partly ceremonial. It is a moral precept in the point of commanding man to aside a certain time to be given to Divine things. . . But, in so far as this precept specializes the time as a sign representing the Creation of the world, it is a ceremonial precept. (Summa Theologica, Question 122, Article 4)
Insofar as Sunday fulfills the moral essence of the command (to set aside time for worship), it is rooted in the third commandment. However:
In the New Law the observance of the Lord’s day took the place of the observance of the Sabbath, not by virtue of the precept but by the institution of the Church and the custom of Christian people. For this observance is not figurative, as was the observance of the Sabbath in the Old Law. Hence the prohibition to work on the Lord’ day is not so strict as on the Sabbath: and certain works are permitted on the Lord’s day which were forbidden on the Sabbath, such as the cooking of food and so forth. (Summa Theologica, Question 122, Article 4)
Aquinas himself distinguishes Sunday observance from the observation of the Third Commandment, at least on some level. Catholics are not “bound” to the Third Commandment, as written in Ex. or Deut (“ont he seventh day”).
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Marsha_Adams
Guest
Happily:
Where in the Bible does it say that it is a sin not to attend Mass on Sundays?
Yes, not attending Mass is a Grave Sin against God. You are correct and I agree with you.
But nowhere, NO WHERE in Scripture did God command weekly Mass attendance. Even the 3rd commandment that is so dear to your heart does not require weekly temple observance on the Sabbath day.
The reason that not attending Mass is a Grave Sin against God is because the Church said so in the Precepts.
The Church can create sin. It has authority over Scripture. If you read the link I provided you in a previous post, you will recognize the following quote.
The Catholic Encyclopedia states:
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SDA2RC
Guest
Exactly… hence Catholics don’t keep/or are bound to all of the Ten Commandments of the Bible. However, we keep the moral precepts of the Old Law as they are interpreted by the Church through the New Covenant.
How can this be so? Because the Old Law was abrogated at the cross. The Church has retained the Moral precepts of the Old law, without being bound to their ceremonial and literal observance.
This is also why we can have statues and pictures… like Marsha pointed out.
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happilycatholic
Guest
Thank you. I appreciate the support. I do have one question. And I genuinely want to understand this position because I see it very differently in the catechism. I realize the catechism tells us the difference between the two including the day of the week and the purpose. The Church’s position is to clarify the change and to honor the Creator as well.
First of all, in my humble opinion Auginas (and the catechism for that matter) is distiguishing between the God the Creator’s reason for the Sabbath and God the Savior’s reason for the Lord’s Day. They are not separating Sunday observance and God’s Commandment. In other words, they are saying, we honor God the Creator by following the Thrid Commandment according to the Old Covenant, we honor God the Savior by following the Third Commandment according to the New Covenant. I think they are distinguishing the reason for the change in direction, not a giving a reason why we should’t be bound all all. In fact if they were going to make that difference they would have kept the Sabbath for worshpping the Creator and instituted Sunday as worship for the Savior. Instead, they give the differences and then marry them into one Commandment. I think the fact that they did not keep two different days says it all.
There is further eveidence of this in Pope John Paul’s Deis Domini states that all Christians are bound by the Commandments and it doesn’t leave out the 3d one. Presumably because the Church has plainly stated we obey the Third Commandment by keeping Holy The Lord’s Day.
In fact nowhere in any Deposit of Faith does it state that we are not bound by the Third Commandment or any of them. I respectfully believe that if this were a Church doctrine they would not be stating the opposite in writing all over the place.
The bottom line is, we don’t have to choose. The Church has stated we honor it by keeping Holy the Lord’s Day and that we are obligated to do so. If that is not “binding” I’m not sure I know what is.
I don’t mean to be dense about this, but if we as catholics are not bound to the Third Commandment, why is it a sin to miss mass?
To sin is disobeyance of God, correct? To miss mass is not only a sin, but a Mortal sin, correct? Then which Commandment are we sinning against by missing mass?
You cannot have sin without disobeyance of God’s Commands. God sets forth sin, man does not.
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Marsha_Adams
Guest
According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (see quote below) “to guarantee to the faithful the very necessary minimum in the spirit of prayer and moral effort, in the growth in love of God and neighbor.”
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happilycatholic
Guest
Aquinas himself distinguishes Sunday observance from the observation of the Third Commandment, at least on some level. Catholics are not “bound” to the Third Commandment, as written in Ex. or Deut (“ont he seventh day”).
Respectfully,
This particular portion is not said by Aquinas. It is inferred by adventistnomore. It is an interpretation that the Church does not hold to as doctrine. Read Deis Domini. Pope John Paul is protected by Apostolic infallibility when writing on matters of faith and morals. See below from this letter:
It is the duty of Christians therefore to remember that, although the practices of the Jewish Sabbath are gone, surpassed as they are by the “fulfillment” which Sunday brings, the underlying reasons for keeping “the Lord’s Day” holy — inscribed solemnly in the Ten Commandments — remain valid, though they need to be reinterpreted in the light of the theology and spirituality of Sunday.
It is crucially important that all the faithful should be convinced that they cannot live their faith or share fully in the life of the Christian community unless they take part regularly in the Sunday Eucharistic assembly. Therefore, also in the particular circumstances of our own time, Christians will naturally strive to ensure that civil legislation respects their duty to keep Sunday holy.
Respectfully,
This particular portion is not said by Aquinas. It is inferred by adventistnomore. It is an interpretation that the Church does not hold to as doctrine. Read Deis Domini. Pope John Paul is protected by Apostolic infallibility when writing on matters of faith and morals. See below from this letter:
It is the duty of Christians therefore to remember that, although the practices of the Jewish Sabbath are gone, surpassed as they are by the “fulfillment” which Sunday brings, the underlying reasons for keeping “the Lord’s Day” holy — inscribed solemnly in the Ten Commandments — remain valid, though they need to be reinterpreted in the light of the theology and spirituality of Sunday.
It is crucially important that all the faithful should be convinced that they cannot live their faith or share fully in the life of the Christian community unless they take part regularly in the Sunday Eucharistic assembly. Therefore, also in the particular circumstances of our own time, Christians will naturally strive to ensure that civil legislation respects their duty to keep Sunday holy.
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SDA2RC
Guest
The pope is not protected with infallibility when writing on matters of faith and doctrine… only when speaking Ex-Cathedra. The last time a pope spoke Ex-Cathedra was in 1950, therefore this is the last time a pope has been protected by Infallibility.
Brandon
Brandon
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SDA2RC
Guest
I dont disagree with anything said in Dies Domini… However, this does not mean that we are bound to the Mosaic law, specifically the 3rd Commandment as written in scripture. Unless you are obeying it by observing a Seventh-Day as the Sabbath, you are not keeping it. You may be keeping the Church’s interpretation of how to fulfill the moral aspect of the commandment, but you cannot keep the commandment without keeping the 7th day Sabbath.
Brandon
Brandon
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happilycatholic
Guest
Marsha, with all due respect and I mean that. We’ve all faught the good fight
But I still have to comment that what you have below is the way the Church “teaches” us “how” to be good catholics, not how it teaches us what the Scripture says.In other words, this is the Church forming law to clarify and codify God’s Will through his Commands. All instruction stems from His Commands to His people. On that foundation, Christ built the Church. That is why He kept the Commandments in the New Covenant. It is His Father’s will, not His own. Christ came to teach us how to be God-like.
What you have below is the Church acting out its mission. They are not “making law” they are carrying out the Law already in place.
You cannot sin against the (c)hurch, only God. Insomuch as you do commit a sin that the Church sets forth in precept, you are sinning against God Himself because that’s where the precept came from.
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Marsha_Adams
Guest
Notice that while Aquinas states the while the “underlying reasons” (inscribed in the 10 commandments) “remain valid”, he does not say that the 10 commandments remain valid, nor does he suggest that we are bound by the 10 commandments.
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SDA2RC
Guest
Because God commands us to submit to the Church and gave the Apostles and hence their successors authority over us… and the Church commands us to weekly Mass attendance. Therefore it is regarded as a sin to miss Mass.
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