why is sunday instead of saturday the sabboth?

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Patrick_Murebil said:
Tonya, my dear, you are OK!!! Really!!!👍 Trust me on this…Brandon most assuredly 100% believes you can and should trust our Church and Her teachings…and all that is in the Catechism…at least I feel very confident in saying that, and Brandon, please forgive me if I’ve spoken out of turn for you.

And I believe you can and should trust our Church and Her teachings and all that is in the Catechism!!!

Now go forward in confidence with faith!!! We all really are on the same side!!! So have a great evening and praise God that we are all One Body in the unity of the Holy Spirit…in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church…and that we have these blessed truths, teachings, and sacraments!!!

I am so very happy to be a part of this with you all, and pray daily that others will pray to see and receive these blessings as well!!

God bless all!!!
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Thanks Patrick. I know both Brandon and Marsha believe that we can trust in our Church, I know that through these conversations actually. :o But at one point I didn’t. At one point I actually thought they were SDA pretending to be catholic and I’ll tell you why.

I’ve never heard a catholic say we don’t keep the Commandments. I have however, heard plenty of SDAs say that and worse.

I know they are good people. Do me a favor though, go to your catechism when you have time and read Part Three, Section Two: Life in Christ. You will know why I feel the way I do.

Thanks again.
 
Patrick_Murebil said:
(continued from previous post)

Now, let’s stay with the the 7 day weekly cycle in the world before the entrance of sin and the fall of mankind.

What is the main point in creating this world and mankind? Is it for man to work 6 days and then rest on the 7th and worship God? Or could the main point of creating this world and mankind be for men and women to follow in the image of their creator, their Father, to marry as pointed out in Chapter 2, and create an ever growing family of families with God as their Father and in their presence daily in all that they do. God walking with mankind in their work and worship in constant face to face communion with God.
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Hey Patrick; I thought you had forgotten about this question and abandoned this thread. I was surprised to see in a post where you said to look on page 30 for your reply to my questions about the time periods involving creation. I was going to abandon this thread too, but now I will continue as I am interested in this aspect.

I am really pleased to see that you have answered my questions, and taken so much effort to do justice to the subject. All of the points you have raised have indeed crossed my mind before too; but I did reach different conclusions than you.

I will take my time in replying to the points you raised, as my time is really limited for a week or so; but this is a line of investigation I will look forward to very much. I really liked your idea when you said above: “What is the main point?” That is a good point!! (pun intended).

One thing I would like to ask is can you please also add to your reply the answer to my one question that you have not replied directly to yet? Or, if you did, I missed it. But I had asked you about the official Adventist belief about the Sabbath:
  1. The Sabbath:
    The beneficent Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation. The fourth commandment of God’s unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God’s kingdom. The Sabbath is God’s perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God’s creative and redemptive acts. (Gen. 2:1-3; Ex. 20:8-11; Luke 4:16; Isa. 56:5, 6; 58:13, 14; Matt. 12:1-12; Ex. 31:13-17; Eze. 20:12, 20; Deut. 5:12-15; Heb. 4:1-11; Lev. 23:32; Mark 1:32.)
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Can you comment on this official belief? What is your opinion of it now? Is it accurate? Is it fair? Etc. I would like to add your reply to this, to what you have already stated above, if possible. And don’t sweat it if you take some time to get back to this - as I will be scarce for a while anyway. But I will look forward to this some more. 🙂
 
happilycatholic said:
I want you to tell me how I am to tell an Adventist that I discern my sins according to the Commandments but I don’t keep the Commandments.

Then I want you to tell me what to say when that Adventist tells me my Church set asunder the Commandments and that catholics are a cult because we don’t keep the Commandments.

Oh, and how the Church is the Whore of Babylon who changed the Commandments to suite herself when she doesn’t require her believers to keep them and they only did it to fulfill the end-times prophesy.Answer those first.
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Very good questions; yet as I read all of the replies right to the end of this topic; I have not seen any credible answers. Only defensive replies, which reflect more emotions than Bible truth.

I find it interesting to note how Catholics currently are struggling to “show” that they did not “change” the fourth commandment; thus summarily dismissing what some see Dan.7:25 as saying:
Dan 7:25
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And he shall speak great
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words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. It cannot be denied that Catholics have changed God’s “times” for the Sabbath; (part of His law) thus, the commandment is “changed” because the “time” was changed.

This is just one of many ways that the seventh-day “Sabbath of the Lord thy God” has been changed by “church authority.”
 
Protestant101 said:
Very good questions; yet as I read all of the replies right to the end of this topic; I have not seen any credible answers. Only defensive replies, which reflect more emotions than Bible truth.

I find it interesting to note how Catholics currently are struggling to “show” that they did not “change” the fourth commandment; thus summarily dismissing what some see Dan.7:25 as saying:
It cannot be denied that Catholics have changed God’s “times” for the Sabbath; (part of His law) thus, the commandment is “changed” because the “time” was changed.

This is just one of many ways that the seventh-day “Sabbath of the Lord thy God” has been changed by “church authority.”
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Hi Protestant101:

No, I never had those questions answered and that’s okay with me. But here’s what I have to offer on your comment: But please understand I’m not really up for a debate. Know what I mean? I’m debated to death at this point.

It seems that the common response to your comment would be that we as catholics aren’t bound by those laws anymore. But of course, as you have read and probably summized, that is not my position.

These are explainations from me, and the others on this thread. I guess you can discern what you will from them. I’ve cut and pasted them.

My position:
I would tell you that the Old Law was fulfilled in the coming of Christ. I would tell you that the Sabbath was a foreshadow. I would tell you that Saturday was a day given to God, the Creator and Sunday is a day given to God, the Savior.

I would tell you that we are still bound to the Third Commandment because what we once gave to God, we still do. Same God, same Commandment, different day.
The others’ position:

The Church does not take the entire deposit of faith from the Bible… We have Tradition and the Magesterium that are not bound to scripture. They are authoritative on their own.

The Bible does not have authority over the Church… The Church has authority over the Bible in that it is a Catholic Book that the Church interprets based on the Tradition and teaching magesterium.

The Church did not change the Commandments BECAUSE we are not bound under the commandments. The Church had no reason to change the commandments, because she has authority over the Bible.

Here is where you rip me to shreds with my own Bible and tell me how awful it is to be catholic. :o
 
I must say I feel much better now. I have a friend with whom I usually attend RCIA but tonight I’m battling what seems to be either a really bad cold or the beginnings of the flu. So I did not go tonight as I usually do.
I asked him to ask our Deacon that teaches the Inquiry class about our conversation here tonight. Our priest is on sabbatical in Rome and I was going to wait until Sunday, but I’d rather get it from Deacon Mickey (cradle catholic)whom I know rather than from a visiting priest. Not that they haven’t been great. But I digress…
The question was: Are catholics bound to the Ten Commandments?
His reply: “Oh Heavens, yes and to 5 or 6 more Chief Commandments of the Church as well”. He said he didn’t condone whomever was telling me otherwise.
So there you have it. I was really in angxst over it. You just don’t know the rug that was almost pulled out from under me.
 
Protestant101 said:
YOU SAY: "It cannot be denied that Catholics have changed God’s “times” for the Sabbath; (part of His law) thus, the commandment is “changed” because the “time” was changed.

This is just one of many ways that the seventh-day “Sabbath of the Lord thy God” has been changed by “church authority.”
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“He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.” (Daniel 7:25)

**Protastant 101. My friend I am going to explain some thing sto you. Please listen to me.
I agree that Daniel prophesied the beast would change times and seasons as you stated. And he did! The problem is, the universal record of history and the NT both proves that Christians never kept the Sabbath after the resurrection of Christ. So we never changed the day we worship on. OK? The Jews worshiped on the Sabbath. They still practice their Sabbath under their old law. So it wasn’t changed for the people for whom it was commanded.
As I said we can prove Christians have always worshipped on Sunday.

Now, Daniel prophesied the beast would change times and seasons. That actually happened it shows who actually has the mark of the beast! Some christians changed the day of worship from Sunday to Saturday! that about 150 years ago (1800’s). Don’t you see that Sabbath keepers are the one’s who have changed God’s law on the day of christian worship, after 1750 years of worshipping on Sunday.

The book of Daniel has several figures and illustrations (statue, 4 beast, Goat & Ram etc.) They all have one thing in common: They all envision kingdoms from Babylon to Rome. In Dan 7:7 Rome is the fourth beast of the vision. Obviously then, this is something the Roman Government changed. It has nothing to do with Christians changing the day of worship.

Did you know it was the Romans who introduced a whole new time keeping system known as “Roman Time”… you know it is the system the world uses today as opposed to Jewish Time that Daniel was familiar with? The Jewish people have observed their sabbath for many millennia without interruption. When the Julian calendar was replaced by the Gregorian calendar in 1582 CE, did you know that ten days were deleted in order to bring the calendar in synchronism with the seasons. But the sequence of the days remained the same. Thus, 1582-OCT-4 (a Thursday) was followed by 1582-OCT-15 (a Friday), and the Sabbath of 1582-OCT-16 happened exactly 7 days after the previous Sabbath of SEP-29. so actually the old Sabbath would actually be the day we call Tuesday until you factor in leap year. On the current standard calendar in most of the world, most years whose division by 4 equals an integer are leap years. In each leap year, the month of February has 29 days instead of 28. Adding an extra day to the calendar every four years compensates for the fact that a solar year is almost 6 hours longer than 365 days.

However, some exceptions to this rule are required since the duration of a solar year is slightly less than 365.25 days. Years that are evenly divisible by 100 are not leap years, unless they are also evenly divisible by 400, in which case they are leap years For example, 1600 and 2000 were leap years, but 1700, 1800 and 1900 were not. In the 1582 papal bull (the 1750 British Calendar Act ignores 1700). Similarly, 2100, 2200, 2300, 2500, 2600, 2700, 2900, and 3000 will not be leap years, but 2400 and 2800 will be. By this rule, the average number of days per year will be 365 + 1/4 − 1/100 + 1/400 = 365.2425, which is 365 days, 5 hours, 49 minutes, and 12 seconds.

The Gregorian calendar was designed to keep the vernal equinox on or close to March 21, so that the date of Easter (celebrated on the Sunday after the 14th day of the Moon (i.e. a full moon) that falls on or after March 21) remains correct with respect to the vernal equinox.[3] The vernal equinox year is about 365.242374 days long (and increasing), whereas the average year length of the Gregorian calendar is 365.2425.

The marginal difference of 0.000125 days means that in around 8,000 years, the calendar will be about one day behind where it is now. But in 8,000 years, the length of the vernal equinox year will have changed by an amount that cannot be accurately predicted (see below). Therefore, the current Gregorian calendar suffices for practical purposes, and Herschel’s correction (making 4000 AD not a leap year) will probably not be necessary.

The Romans also introduced Emperor worship (changing laws) where Christians were killed if they did not say Caesar was God.
So don’t get all excited over Daniel and Revelation as proof that Rome change the day of Worship for Christians. We know this cannot be the correct interpretation, christians died for not obeying Rome. Real Christians have always worshipped on Sunday and never on the Sabbath. The beast had some fall away and start that in the last 150 or so years.

I think with all the adjustments that the “Old” sabbath is actually back to “Sundays”. So we are actually following Jesus’ commandment on the same day the “old” people would have celebrated the Sabbath! Isn’t God Great!

Home work 101?

Please read : Mark 2:27 ; John 20:19; Romans 14:5; Corinthians 1: 16-2 ; Colossians 2:16-17; Acts 20:7

I’ll be back! 😃

**
 
happilycatholic said:
** …So there you have it. I was really in angxst over it. You just don’t know the rug that was almost pulled out from under me.**

happily and all others

** PLEASE SLOW DOWN!**

This thread is flying. Happily on post #544 you even sited Vactian
council II as saying the 10 commandments applied. later you changed your mind again? Jesus quoted only nine. He did not “bind” us to the Sabbath. He did mentioned all others.

Our Church says that we must keep holy the DAY OF THE LORD “not Saturday” the Jewish law.
As member of the Catholic Church we just have to obey the church. No one else but OUR CHURCH! Don’t question things so much.

It is good to have our faith tested sometimes. It should make it stronger. Don’t defend it if you can’t just realize that “you aren’t there yet”. By there I mean where you can successfully defend the faith against attack. if you can’t, DON’T.
That isn’t bad it just shows that you are human.

Like was said earlier this isn’t a contest. And this is only a thread on the internet. Some people here should be in padded cells with some of the things they believe! You said in another post that you are going through personal problems.

Don’t let your “personal” problems attempt to shape the church’s laws. You seem like a nice guy. I was saddened to hear you were in tears. That isn’t good my friend. You are in my prayers. :gopray2:

Jesus loves you! :gopray: Remember two things:

SDAs are all sinners they are marked with the sign of the beast! Unless they can break away they are condemned to hell.

If you follow the Catholic Church’s teachings throught the church’s interpretation of the Bible, you can not go wrong no matter how any non-catholic twists the verses and scriptures to proved things that our church doesn’t teach. They are WRONG!

God Bless! :signofcross:
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Protestant101 said:
Hey Patrick; I thought you had forgotten about this question and abandoned this thread. I was surprised to see in a post where you said to look on page 30 for your reply to my questions about the time periods involving creation. I was going to abandon this thread too, but now I will continue as I am interested in this aspect.

I am really pleased to see that you have answered my questions, and taken so much effort to do justice to the subject. All of the points you have raised have indeed crossed my mind before too; but I did reach different conclusions than you.

I will take my time in replying to the points you raised, as my time is really limited for a week or so; but this is a line of investigation I will look forward to very much. I really liked your idea when you said above: “What is the main point?” That is a good point!! (pun intended).

One thing I would like to ask is can you please also add to your reply the answer to my one question that you have not replied directly to yet? Or, if you did, I missed it. But I had asked you about the official Adventist belief about the Sabbath:

Can you comment on this official belief? What is your opinion of it now? Is it accurate? Is it fair? Etc. I would like to add your reply to this, to what you have already stated above, if possible. And don’t sweat it if you take some time to get back to this - as I will be scarce for a while anyway. But I will look forward to this some more. 🙂
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Hi Protestant101,

Yes my replies disappeared quickly in the energetic conversation going on back on those pages:)

I did reply to your questions about the SDA statement on the sabbath…and I believe it is also on page 30 of this thread, or at least within a couple pages of page 30.

I look forward to your thoughts!

God bless all!!!
 
happilycatholic said:
Hi Protestant101:

No, I never had those questions answered and that’s okay with me. But here’s what I have to offer on your comment: But please understand I’m not really up for a debate. Know what I mean? I’m debated to death at this point.

It seems that the common response to your comment would be that we as catholics aren’t bound by those laws anymore. But of course, as you have read and probably summized, that is not my position.

These are explainations from me, and the others on this thread. I guess you can discern what you will from them. I’ve cut and pasted them.

My position:
I would tell you that the Old Law was fulfilled in the coming of Christ. I would tell you that the Sabbath was a foreshadow. I would tell you that Saturday was a day given to God, the Creator and Sunday is a day given to God, the Savior.

I would tell you that we are still bound to the Third Commandment because what we once gave to God, we still do. Same God, same Commandment, different day.
The others’ position:

The Church does not take the entire deposit of faith from the Bible… We have Tradition and the Magesterium that are not bound to scripture. They are authoritative on their own.

The Bible does not have authority over the Church… The Church has authority over the Bible in that it is a Catholic Book that the Church interprets based on the Tradition and teaching magesterium.

The Church did not change the Commandments BECAUSE we are not bound under the commandments. The Church had no reason to change the commandments, because she has authority over the Bible.

Here is where you rip me to shreds with my own Bible and tell me how awful it is to be catholic. :o
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Hi HappilyCatholic,

And this is where you hit the nail right on the head in what you highlighted in purple above, and what Realcatholicgk points out regarding Jesus’ teaching on the 10 commandments in Matthew, with the obvious exception of the sabbath commandment.

And this is what I was talking about in post #652 on page 44 of this thread.

I would ask the SDAs to show anywhere in the Gospels or the New Testament, where Jesus taught, or commanded, the necessary importance of keeping the sabbath on the 7th day, saturday, specifically. HIS teachings leave that pretty flexible, and Paul elabortes on not preferring one day over another. Does that take away the moral imperative of the commandment to rest and commune with God one day a week? No, not at all.

As for what the Catholic Church teaches about the 10 commandments, that is spelled out in detail in the Catechism, and takes up a pretty big section of that book. It is well worth the read. If anyone has a link to an online version of that, please post it in this thread if it isn’t in here somewhere already.

God bless all!!!
 
Patrick_Murebil said:
Hi HappilyCatholic,

And this is where you hit the nail right on the head in what you highlighted in purple above, and what Realcatholicgk points out regarding Jesus’ teaching on the 10 commandments in Matthew, with the obvious exception of the sabbath commandment.

And this is what I was talking about in post #652 on page 44 of this thread.

I would ask the SDAs to show anywhere in the Gospels or the New Testament, where Jesus taught, or commanded, the necessary importance of keeping the sabbath on the 7th day, saturday, specifically. HIS teachings leave that pretty flexible, and Paul elabortes on not preferring one day over another. Does that take away the moral imperative of the commandment to rest and commune with God one day a week? No, not at all.

As for what the Catholic Church teaches about the 10 commandments, that is spelled out in detail in the Catechism, and takes up a pretty big section of that book. It is well worth the read. If anyone has a link to an online version of that, please post it in this thread if it isn’t in here somewhere already.

God bless all!!!
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Yes, I really love the way the catechism first gives praise and glory to God the Creator and then ties that in with the praise and whorship given to God the Savior and Redeemer. I especially like the passage that tells us how to carry the Decalogue into the New Covenant. I think it is Canon 2056. If you will also notice the catechism calls to mind the difference between the Law of Moses and the Commandments. That’s very important insomuch as the reason for the preservation of the Commandments.

I know there are differing opinions, but here you can read it and discern for yourself.

I really love this part of the catechism because IMHO it teaches us how we can keep the law that God gave us as a moral basis and use the Gospels to expound on that. And boy is that an understatement of what Jesus did in the Gospels!

Most of all, it lets us know that we are now in a new age and the Sabbath is not gone, just improved upon and has a deeper meaning.

Peace Be With You
 
Dear Patrick,

Haven’t heard from you for a long time – God bless!

To all the other thread users – God bless!

STOP! STOP! STOP!

In 2 days you filled 20 pages. Please look back at what you’ve said – may I try to summarize?
  1. SDA’s are saying: God wants ALL PEOPLE FROM GENESIS 1 TO REVELATION 22 TO KEEP ALL 10 COMMANDMENTS FOREVER. To prove this, they give Bible verses as support.
  2. Catholics are saying: THE JEWISH COMMANDMENTS WERE NAILED TO THE CROSS, CHRISTIANS NOW LIVE UNDER GRACE. To prove this, they give Bible verses as support, and claim a direct shortcut to God via TRADITION if all else fails.
RESULT: Frustration, accusations like SDA’s hate Catholics, etc.

Please let my try to summarize what SDA’s are saying:
  1. GOD REQUIRES OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS, NOT MAN’S IDEAS.

    1. *]God’s Commands
      *]Man’s Commands
      *]Result

    1. *]To Eve – Do NOT eat from tree – you will die!
      *]Snake – eat, you will NOT die!
      *]Eve DIES!

      1. *]Abel – offer a lamb for sins
        *]Cain – I will offer fruit
        *]God rejects Cain’s offering! Cain murders Abel!

        1. *]Noah – go into ark, or drown
          *]Leaders – it has never rained!
          *]Noah’s family saved, rest drowned!

          1. *]This is my beloved Son with whom I am well pleased
            *]Crucify him!
            *]God rejects the Jewish nation as His covenant people!

            1. *]REMEMBER the Sabbath Day, because God created…
              *]Remember the Resurrection day, because Jesus rose from the grave…
              *]Most churches believe in evolution, reject God as Creator!

              1. *]All Scripture is inspired…
                *]Tradition = greater than Scripture
                *]The Bible has lost its authority as God’s spoken Word!

                1. *]OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S COMMANDMENTS will be a test before Christ returns to this earth again (Rev 12:14 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring – those who OBEY GOD’S COMMANDMENTS and hold to THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS’’) *]OBEDIENCE TO MAN’S COMMANDMENTS if you want to be able to buy or sell (The beast… opened his mouth to blaspheme God… He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them’’. Rev. 13:5-7. The other beast made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast… He also forced everyone… to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell… If ANYONE has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast for it is MAN’S NUMBER.’’ Rev. 13:11-18 *]If ANYONE worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath… This calls for patient endurance on the part of THE SAINTS WHO OBEY GOD’S COMMANDMENTS AND REMAIN FAITHFUL TO JESUS.’’ Rev. 14:9-12

                  CONCLUSION: When Jesus returns, there will only be 2 classes of people on earth – those who OBEY GOD/those who OBEY MAN. In ALL cases above, the MINORITY obeyed God, with wonderful rewards, but the MAJORITY obeyed man, with disastrous results!
                  NB NB These two classes of people will NOT BE DETERMINED BY CHURCH AFFILLIATION, BUT BY PERSONAL OBEDIENCE TO GOD OR TO MAN!
                  1. To my Catholic FRIENDS, I plead with you: In your efforts to protect your special day, Sunday, DO NOT BE FOOLISH ENOUGH TO NAIL GOD’S LAW TO THE CROSS IN ORDER TO AVOID SATURDAY WORSHIP! Either nail all 10 commandments to the cross, or zero!
                    • Have you ever pondered the results of doing away with the 10 commandments? Would you be happy for your children to use God’s name in vain, show disrespect to their parents, murder, lie, steal, covet? Don’t sacrifice that to protect Sunday worship!
                    • Have you ever thought WHY Jesus had to die? If God’s commandments were not important, Jesus could just have nailed them to the cross, and gone back to heaven without dying! JESUS DIED ON THE CROSS BECAUSE HIS LAWS ARE ETERNAL, UNCHANGEABLE, VITAL FOR THE HARMONIOUS SURVIVAL OF THE UNIVERSE!
                    • Finally, I have been amazed at the mental/spiritual gymnastic you have performed to try and prove that the Sabbath was a Jewish, Old Testament institution, but that Jesus and His disciples kept Sunday in the New Testament – DO YOU NOT KNOW THAT YOUR OWN CATHOLIC THEOLOGIANS ARE LAUGHING AT THESE FEEBLE EFFORTS? You are merely following PROTESTANT gymnastics to balance Sola Scriptura and Sunday worship – Check the following website, which is a series of 4 ARTICLES WRITTEN BY CATHOLIC THEOLOGIANS TO PROVE THERE IS NOT ONE VERSE IN THE WHOLE BIBLE THAT PROMOTES SUNDAY WORSHIP!
                    • ROME’S CHALLENGE - WHY DO PROTESTANTS KEEP SUNDAY? www.biblelight.net/chalng.htm
                  Thank you for your patience!
                  In the end, even though we are saved by Christ’s death on the cross, we still have to prove our loyalty to God instead of Satan during the final TEST BEFORE JESUS COMES. Therefore God says that only individuals who are faithful to Him and His commandments will be allowed into Heaven, irrespective of whether we are SDA or Catholic or Muslim or Agnostic.
                  Let’s start practicing loving each other a bit more NOW– after all, we will be spending ETERNITY TOGETHER IN HEAVEN!

                  God bless,

                  Friedrich
 
These are just some of my own thoughts after much prayer and deep reflection on this discussion and the thread topic:

We only have two things in this world that have existed in direct connection from God. Jesus and the Commandments.

We have Tradition, Scripture and all sorts of things given by God and inspired by God but only two things that are not “once removed” so to speak, from God.

Is it a mistake to believe that both and not just one transcended the OT? Both are rooted in the Old Law and are part of the New Covenant. That’s clear in Matt. 5:17

And if you believe that, then you must believe that the Commandments were meant to reflect the same change that happened in Jesus.

We all agree the ceremonial laws have been done away, but some still refuse to go the extra 9 yards and bring Jesus into the Third Commandment. So Jesus can wash away the old but not BE the new?

To continue to worship on Saturday IMHO is to refuse to give Jesus his right place not only ABOVE the Commandment but also IN the Commandment. It is in essence to worship the idea of the covenant, but not the reason for it.

Since Jesus is much bigger than the Commandments because He is God’s flesh Covenant with us, why do some refuse to place Jesus within the Third Commandment?

I think the Catechism of the Catholic Church tells us how God has done just that. Not the Church, God. By sending His Son, He has rewritten His own Law by resurrecting His Son on Sunday.

It is not logical to whorship the Lord our Savior in every way but in the Third Commandment. There is no logic in it. More importantly, there is no faith in it.

So Sunday or Saturday? That depends on whether you are willing to give God ALL His Glory and worship Him for EVERYTHING He is.

Put the Savior in your Commandments, I’ve put Him in mine. 😃

Peace Be With You
 
Friedrich said:
Therefore God says that only individuals who are faithful to Him and His commandments will be allowed into Heaven, irrespective of whether we are SDA or Catholic or Muslim or Agnostic.
Let’s start practicing loving each other a bit more NOW– after all, we will be spending ETERNITY TOGETHER IN HEAVEN!

God bless,

Friedrich
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I got blasted in those 20 pages!

But thank you for your comment above. We all need to keep that in mind. Sometimes, speaking for myself, my emotions get away with me.

Peace Be With You
 
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Friedrich:
Friedrich:

I have a question for you, and I’m not a theologian so it’s a very simple question:

Whom do you give glory to by keeping the Sabbath?

The Trinity did not exist at the time of Creation, at the formation of Judaism, at the time of the Law of Moses or at any other point before Christ’s birth. So at the formation of the Sabbath, the Trinity did not exist. There was no glory given to God The Savior because Christ had not come yet. In fact that was the point of Christ’s Passion, to fill that void between us and God.

The keeping of the Sabbath was to give glory to God the Creator because God the Savior did not exist and today, the “worshipping of Saturday cannot intrinsically include “The Son” and can actually be considered “exclusive”. There is no connection with God The Savior in the Sabbath. In fact it is the opposite, to do so is to separate ourselves from God The Savior. This is why the Jews still keep the Sabbath. They do not believe Christ is the Messiah so they have deliberately chosen to continue this way so as to give glory to God and not to Jesus. Even Jews realize the true way to give God glory as The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit is to worship on Sunday.

Sunday worship is “inclusive” because when we worship God The Savior we can also worship God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit which includes the Creator and ALL that God is.

The Commandments must go through a transformation there is no other way. We cannot simply rewrite what God has written so we must reinterpret God’s Command to us to Worship Him. Does God want us to continue to worship Him in a way that excludes part of the Trinity? No. So we must give God the glory for the Sabbath, but commit the written law to Him as the Savior so as to give glory to ALL that God is. It is the only way to be totally obedient to God.

God said to keep the Commandments. The only way to keep the Commandments AND give glory to God the Savior is to symbolically place Christ into the Third/Fourth Commandment. There is no other way. You would have to choose between the Third Commandment and Christ otherwise, because obviously Christ is not written into the Third Commandment. I believe THAT’S the part that is written on our hearts and is a true mystery because it takes faith to see Christ in the Third Commandment just like it took faith to see the foretelling of Christ coming in the Old Law.

What you see as the “Sabbath Commandment” we as Christians/Catholics now see as “The Lord’s Day” Commandment because it was written on our hearts.
 
Protestant101 said:
I appreciate hearing this, that others do notice when God’s children are actually doing something good - even when they don’t agree. 🙂

**A couple of “minor” points 101.😃 **
You followers of the Beast are not God’s Children. Your souls belong to the evil one. He claims you by your beliefs!** **

To me, the seventh-day Sabbath has always been such a blessing - I have been both shocked and surprised at the attacks on this beautiful Christian doctrine, when I first heard/read them years ago.

It is not a “christian” doctrine it never has been. Don’t lie
freesmileys.org/smileys/char048.gif


I have always thought this to be one of the best Bible doctrines, not really because it makes me friends; but because of the Friend that this amazing fact of the seventh-day Sabbath speaks of. What A Friend We Have In Jesus is the main message that the Sabbath has spoken to me.🙂

That is a crock and even you should be able to smell it. I can from here! The only “fact” is that you don’t know what you are even talking about! I will presume another “fact”. That being, that since you do seem intelligent, you don’t even believe the stuff you claim to believe! 😃

Patrick has raised some great questions; and I am sincerely looking forward to his reply to my last post.

**Patrick doesn’t know what he is talking about! **There were “period” During creation. They were not 24 hour days as we know them. How do I know? Boy ,that is the easiest answer. The Sun revolves around the Earth every “Day” correct. What when there is no Earth? No Sun? Exactly how long is that day? They used the same word for all periods and it means “period of time” not “24 hour period”.

But even if it did, l****ater when we changed the calenders** being used and took 10 days out and the new one allows for leap year adding a new day every four years. What day of the week is actually the** “Sabbath:” day that God Commanded the Hebrews to keep?
Go ahead, take a guess, you have a one in seven chance of being correct. And you place your eternal souls on two fairy tales, and your picking the right day? Way to go!👍 '

**I find it easier to follow and obey Jesus who you 'claim" to follow but disobey with your foolishness! **
As Christians we use the Christian Calender and we choice Sunday which jesus told us to make Holy. Not the old Hebrew calendar base on their covenant with God. We have a new covenant.

**What I first noticed as I started reading the Bible is that there are two different creation stories. **
The first is Genesis 1:1-2:3, and the second is Genesis 2:4-25. Of course everyone notices these facts. It is thought that the two versions come from two different sources. Not a bad idea, probably true.

Genesis 1:1-2:3 sets out the seven days of creation:

**Day 1: heavens, earth, light, day and night. **

**Day 2: the “dome” (sky) that separates the waters below (on earth) from the waters above the sky. **

**Day 3: dry land and vegetation. **

Day 4: stars, moon, Sun. < Only then could there be 24 hour days!

**Day 5: water creatures and birds. **

**Day 6: land animals; humankind (both male and female). You do realize that the number of human beings created is not specified. Also, God here gives to people “every plant yielding seed that is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food” (Gen 1:29) – no prohibitions. **

Day 7: God rested, and blessed this day.

In the second creation story, things are a little different. First of all, individual days are not specified. And the sequence is very different:

**1. Earth and heavens; no rain yet but a spring would well up and water the ground **

**2. From dust, man was created (not woman yet) **

**3. Garden of Eden – man is put here; garden includes the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil **

**4. God tells man to till and keep the garden of Eden, but not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (note that Woman has not entered the scene yet! Man is alone). **

**5. God notices that Man is alone and wants to find him a helper and partner, so He first creates animals and birds and Man names them. But still there was no helper as partner. **

**6. God makes Man fall asleep, pulls out a rib, and makes Woman. **

7. The story of original sin then ensues.

**God Bless, **
**Now, **get back to following the"real" Jesus He is awaiting at the door, for your return like the father of the protical Son awaiting His child to return! Please, don’t allow Satain to keep you separated from Him!
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RobGentner said:
Patrick doesn’t know what he is talking about! There were “period” During creation. They were not 24 hour days as we know them. How do I know? Boy ,that is the easiest answer. The Sun revolves around the Earth every “Day” correct. What when there is no Earth? No Sun? Exactly how long is that day? They used the same word for all periods and it means “period of time” not “24 hour period”.
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Hey there RobGenter, I may not know what I’m talking about, but you either cannot, or did not, read my posts. Go back and read them and you’ll see I took a little heat from the SDAs for suggesting that the creation days may not be literal 24 hour periods.

So to make my point, I merely said to the SDAs, let’s look at the creation story as literal 24 hour days and that they (the SDAs) could answer all the questions that I knew would be coming from folks like you.

My point was that the lesson’s to be learned from the creation story, even in regards to the sabbath, perhaps especially in regards to the sabbath, do not depend on either a literal 24 hour day period or a 24,000,000 year day period.

Go back and read what I said in my posts from way back around page 15 of this thread. If after your scrutinous review, you determine that I still don’t know what I’m talking about, I’m quite open to instruction!!!👍

God bless all!!!
 
happilycatholic said:
Friedrich:

I have a question for you, and I’m not a theologian so it’s a very simple question:

Whom do you give glory to by keeping the Sabbath?

The Trinity did not exist at the time of Creation, at the formation of Judaism, at the time of the Law of Moses or at any other point before Christ’s birth. So at the formation of the Sabbath, the Trinity did not exist. There was no glory given to God The Savior because Christ had not come yet. In fact that was the point of Christ’s Passion, to fill that void between us and God.
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Hi HappilyCatholic,

You lost me here… Are you saying that the Trinity did not exist at the time of creation? If so you need to go back to the Catechism and read those sections.

The Trinity, The Trinitarian God, FatherSonHolySpirit, is eternal…it did not come about…it always was!!

God bless all!!!
 
Patrick_Murebil said:
Hi HappilyCatholic,

You lost me here… Are you saying that the Trinity did not exist at the time of creation? If so you need to go back to the Catechism and read those sections.

The Trinity, The Trinitarian God, FatherSonHolySpirit, is eternal…it did not come about…it always was!!

God bless all!!!
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Hi,

Just for the record, from your explanation in the other thread, I realize that you do believe in the Eternal Trinity!!! Please post your explanation from that thread into this thread.

It is a way of looking at the sabbath/sunday issue in light of the third/fourth commandment, and why Jesus did not spend time teaching about that commandment, other than it is good to do good, to heal, and that the Sabbath was made for us, not us for the Sabbath.

This is a very important point you make…I just don’t want anyone to be sidetracked from your main point by your Trinity comment.

She does believe in the Eternal Trinity everyone…so focus on what she has written regarding Creator in the sabbath and Saviour in Lord’s Day…based on that and the teachings of Jesus on the 10 commandments, and the teachings of the Apostles in the New Testament regarding the sabbath, days, new moons, and other sabbaths, and the Chruch Fathers, this makes good sense as to why sunday worship is not in violation of the thrid/fourth commandment.

But of course, The Church has been saying that for 2000 years…but it’s good to get a refresher course about it!! At least it is for me!!

My thoughts on what HappilyCatholic says above, and said in previous posts in this thread, are on page 44 in Post # 652

God bless all!!!
 
I apologize for creating confusion about my belief in the Eternal Trinity. Please see below.

Let me say this, and I hope everyone who wishes to reply will take this into consideration.

The reason I wrote my pose the way I did is because I wanted to convey the nature of the Trinity here on earth at the time of Creation until the birth of Christ.

I think all Christians know that what we call the “Trinity” has always exsisted in God. God is not bound by time, no beginning and no end.

We however, did not know God The Father, God The Son and God The Holy Spirit at the time the Commandments were written. That first sentence is the whole point.

It was meant to be figurative without saying so because to say so would actually refute the point. That is why the Trinity is a Mystery. It’s a circular argument, kind of like the chicken and the egg.

The principle is not the revelation that there are Three Gods in One, but that a part of that One is our Savior and He needs to be recognized in the Third Commandment and on the Lord’s Day, not the Sabbath.
 
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