why is sunday instead of saturday the sabboth?

[Marsha_Adams]

The conclusion is false because of a false understanding of what it means to base one’s belief on the Bible alone.

As noted by another poster it is legitimate to use outside sources to understand the Bible. I then named some: maps, archaeology, lexicons, etc…

To understand yes, but not to supplement what is not there.

Read the teachings of Jesus and you’ll find Him appealing to nature as an object lesson. Is His teachings to be rejected because He didn’t use the Bible alone?

Jesus didn’t use the Bible Alone because Sola Scriptura is a false doctrine, but since the SDAs cling to it, you really should abide by it.

Your conclusion doesn’t follow from that. It’s the understanding of what “Bible Alone” means that is false.

By applying reason and logic to the Bible we can prove that the doctrine of the Trinity and the practice of monoganism (and that to hold slaves is wrong) can be proven to be biblical. Therefore, by using reason and logic (and the facts found by Dr. William Mead Jones) we can prove that Sabbath-keeping can be dated back to Creation. It is only by ignoring basic facts–the Sabbath was celebrated a month before the Law was given–and not applying common sense–so how far back before that was the Sabbath known?–can we “conclude” that the Sabbath didn’t exist before it was given as a law at Sinai.

The Sabbath did not exist as an obligation upon man prior to the Exodus. When God rested after creation, He did not obligate man to observe it, nor did He suggest that it was more than a one time event. Abraham who came out of an idolatrous environment was not enjoined to keep the Sabbath. He offered many sacrifices but none of them were connected to the Sabbath. There is no hint that any of the patriarchs attached any importance to a day. There simply is no biblical proof that between creation and Moses the Sabbath was ever mentioned. Again if you do want to apply to extra-biblical sources (which is fine) you are left with an idolatrous bad luck day prior to Moses.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Who said that the sun and the moon were created on the 4th day? How do you explain it? Is creation a myth?

BTW, only answer the questions using the Bible alone.

Hi Dj,

Welcome to Creation 101!
**When you ask a question do not dare to impose your restrictions on the answer. :tsktsk: Who do you think you are? :takethat: Now pay attention and learn something! **

** A close reading of the first few chapters of the Bible quickly reveals not one, but two different – and contradictory – stories of creation. These are from two of the (at least) four traditions that are interweaved in the first books of the Bible, the Priestly and Yahvist traditions, out of the set that includes the Elohist and Deuteronomist traditions.**
**This conclusion has been reached by consideration of stylistic elements (for example, the Priestly tradition is heavy on statistics, the Yahvist and Elohist traditions refer to the Deity as “Yahweh” and “Elohim”, respectively, and the Deuteronomist tradition is found in the Book of Deuteronomy), and this theory is generally accepted by non-literalist Biblical scholars (for a good introduction to the historical background behind the Bible, see _Asimov’s “Guide to the Bible”, both volumes).

Here is the order in the first (**Genesis 1:1-3), **the Priestly tradition:

Day 1: Sky, Earth, light
Day 2: Water, both in ocean basins and above the sky(!)
Day 3: Plants
**"Day 4: Sun, Moon, stars (as calendrical and navigational aids)"
Day 5: Sea monsters (whales), fish, birds, land animals,
creepy-crawlies (reptiles, insects, etc.)
Day 6: Humans (apparently both sexes at the same time)
Day 7: Nothing (the Gods took the first day off anyone ever did)

Did you notice that there are "days", "evenings", and "mornings" before the Sun was created.

The second one (Genesis 2), the Yahwist tradition, goes:

Earth and heavens (misty)
Adam, the first man (on a desolate Earth)
Plants
Animals
Eve, the first woman (from Adam’s rib)
Then, there follows the story of the serpent leading Eve, and
Adam, to eat that (unspecified) fruit, and get expelled from the
Garden of Eden, whereupon that serpent was ordered to crawl on its belly (no mention of how it moved about before that).

Neither tale, it must be said, has much resemblance to the
geological record, but in all fairness to the inventors of these tales, the geological record only became clear in the nineteenth century.Of course one can come up with a Bible interpretation that somehow harmonizes these two tales, but to make such an interpretation requires rejection of the dogma of the literal truth of the Bible, which many Protestant dfalse believe … Remember two contradictory statements cannot be true at the same time. Catholics take the truth from these stories. That God made all things from nothing. That He always was and always will be. That man disobeyed God and misused his free-will. Other “truths” may or may not be true!

Any questions, Grasshopper?

 

[Friedrich]

Dear Realcatholicgk

I would be embarrassed if one of my fellow brothers in Christ were as unkind as you are. You say horrible things and add a sick smile on the end. Rather be more like Jesus, and forget the smile!

God bless

Friedrich

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Who said that the sun and the moon were created on the 4th day?

Genesis 1:14-19

How do you explain it?

Genesis 1:2 & Genesis chapters 1&2

Is creation a myth?

Genesis 1:1

Also, John 1:1-5, but Genesis 1:1 suffices and remains in the context of the creation story, so you can ignore John 1:1-5.

BTW, only answer the questions using the Bible alone.

Ok…I have answered your questions with the Bible only…now please answer my 6 Questions with the Bible only.

Thanks in advance!!

God bless all!!!

 

[djconklin]

As noted by another poster it is legitimate to use outside sources to understand the Bible. I then named some: maps, archaeology, lexicons, etc…

To understand yes, but not to supplement what is not there.

It supplements what is there. Unless, of course, you don’t believe in Bible.

The Bible records the Tower of Babel incident. That’s when the languages were made. So, if the Sabbath existed at that time we should be able to find a remnant of that knowledge in the languages. And Dr. William Mead Jones found that, in fact, we do. In over 100 languages the seventh day of the week is called “sabbath.” And as I noted before I found an additional two.

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
Who said that the sun and the moon were created on the 4th day?

Genesis 1:14-19

Genesis 1: 14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

So, when were the sun and moon made?

Or, are these verses describing how God set them to be signs, for seasons, days, years (not week). Do these verses actually describe God sertting the earth in its current orbit around the sun and the moon in orbit around the earth? So, there was day and night for the first three days?

 

[djconklin]

now please answer my 6 Questions with the Bible only.

As I have noted many times before this, this is an artificial construct that has no biblical basis.

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
Who said that the sun and the moon were created on the 4th day? How do you explain it? Is creation a myth?

BTW, only answer the questions using the Bible alone.

Hi Dj,

Welcome to Creation 101!
When you ask a question do not dare to impose your restrictions on the answer. Who do you think you are? Now pay attention and learn something!

If it is good for the goose then it is good for the gander too.

Now chew out Pat for making the same rule.

 

[Friedrich]

SLOW DOWN AGAIN!

Hi Patrick,
It seems as if things are getting UN-CHRISTIAN again. Sorry about that!

Thanks for replying to my efforts on question 1!
Let me try to clarify again (at the risk of boring you)
• I humbly submit that if God did not see fit to give us more detail on the Creation Story, who am I to fill in the missing details?
• I get the impression that no matter what I say, you won’t accept it, because you don’t want to. (hope I am wrong!)
• Can I try to repeat it better? Gen 1 and 2 clearly give us 6 literal days of creation (OTHERWISE PLEASE TELL ME WHAT IT MEANS BY SAYING THE FIRST **DAY**’! etc), followed by a literal seventh day, set aside by God for the benefit of mankind. Moses repeats God’s words on stone and tells us to REMEMBER (PERHAPS REMEMBER’ MEANS FORGET’ IN YOUR LANGUAGE?) the same literal Sabbath day, BECAUSE GOD HAD CREATED THE EARTH IN 6 LITERAL DAYS, AND RESTED ON THE LITERAL 7TH DAY. • Question: Can it be plainer than that, and yet you can’t see? I suspect the problem lies much deeper than that, since we keep going around in circles... • I once saw an amazing sight – a HUGE bulldozer bashing down a 100 year old double story building with ease – WOW! But suddenly I thought: ANY FOOL CAN DESTROY A BUILDING, GIVEN THE RIGHT TOOLS. BUT NOT EVERYBODY CAN BUILD A BUILDING, EVEN WITH THE RIGHT TOOLS! • Replace building’ with BIBLE’, and the same applies – The Bible was a hidden’ book for over 1000 years in the DARK AGES; hidden in Latin, hidden by the church `to protect doctrines’. The Reformation suddenly brought the Bible in the open, and ordinary Christians suddenly discovered Bible Truths that contradicted their Church beliefs! The Bible was listed under the ``Index of Prohibited Books’’ by Pope Paul IV in 1599, and Archbishop Adolphus broke up the printing establishments of Gutenberg and Schoeffer. We know that some Bible Translators were burnt at the stake in England for their efforts. But the Bible spread like wildfire. To stem the tide, two Catholic theologians, Richard Simon and Dr. Alexander Geddes started HIGHER CRITICISM in 1678, which ripped the heart out of the Scriptures by questioning the plainest teachings on history and origins in the Bible. Moses’ writings became mythology, and faith was destroyed. Combined with German RATIONALISM, the Bible’s power was neutralized. Today most cathedrals and churches in Europe are empty on Sundays, and Protestant churches have followed the same downward trend, losing all faith in the Bible as God’s Word.
• Higher Criticism has done the following to the Bible: Take a A STUNNINGLY BEAUTIFUL ROSE, delicate, balanced, perfumed, beautiful colours – RIP THE PETALS OFF! CRUSH IT INTO A PULP! ANALYZE IN A TEST TUBE! RESULT – A WORK OF ART HAS BEEN REDUCED TO A FEW ELEMENTS…

Patrick, I am trying to understand WHY we can’t really talk to each other. It is obvious everybody on this forum is desperate to get rid of the Biblical Sabbath. Let me try one more time:
• You worship/pray to SAINTS, BECAUSE YOUR CHURCH HAS DECLARED THEM HOLY.
• WE WORSHIP GOD ON SATURDAY, BECAUSE GOD DECLARED IT HOLY!

Acts 4:19: ``But Peter and John answered and said to them, `Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you more than to God, you judge.’’

God bless,

Friedrich

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Genesis 1: 14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

So, when were the sun and moon made?

Or, are these verses describing how God set them to be signs, for seasons, days, years (not week). Do these verses actually describe God sertting the earth in its current orbit around the sun and the moon in orbit around the earth? So, there was day and night for the first three days?

The sun and moon were made on the 4th day. Read the first part of verse 14 prior to the semi-colon. Also, read verse 16.

And oh yes, you forgot to include verses 18-19 above, which I referenced in my Bible only answer to you. Those are two very key verses for that answer.

You wouldn’t have purposefully left them out above would you? Or are you just being a tricky little rascal?

God bless all!!!

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

As I have noted many times before this, this is an artificial construct that has no biblical basis.

Ok, don’t concern yourself with answering them.

For the record for those following this thread:

Scriptural answers to Question 1, djconklin=0
Scriptural answers to Question 2, djconklin=0
Scriptural answers to Question 3, djconklin=0
Scriptural answers to Question 4, djconklin=0
Scriptural answers to Question 5, djconklin=0
Scriptural answers to Question 6, djconklin=0

I will patiently await any other’s answers to my 6 Questions before we officially proclaim any SDA teaching to be UN-Biblical.

God bless all!!!

 

[djconklin]

The sun and moon were made on the 4th day. Read the first part of verse 14 prior to the semi-colon. Also, read verse 16.

You are reading woodenly, simplistically, and literalistically. I can’t help you.

And oh yes, you forgot to include verses 18-19 above, which I referenced in my Bible only answer to you. Those are two very key verses for that answer.

You wouldn’t have purposefully left them out above would you? Or are you just being a tricky little rascal?

“tricky little rascal” --another childish game.

Typo on my part when I looked for the texts in Bibleworks 7.0. Simple and honest explantaion. No need for acting like a child.

 

[djconklin]

before we officially proclaim any SDA teaching to be UN-Biblical.

Hmmm, simply because your artificial (and un-biblical) constraint can’t be met all teachings are un-biblical?

Check out the texts given at adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html for the fundamental beliefs of the SDA church.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

You are reading like a literalist. I can’t help you.

I read what the verses said. You can view that as literalism if you want, but I don’t see how you make that leap after what I’ve said. Just because I do not believe the creation story to be literal, does not mean that I do not believe the Bible, nor that I am an atheist, nor that I am trying to destroy the Bible. I would never want Genesis chapters 1 and 2 to go away. It is a very important story for Christians.

I quoted the Bible vesres that you gave to the first question. If wanted 18-9 to be included then, you tricky little rascal (another childish game), you should have included them.

Then you read like a blind man. Go back up a few posts to Post # 801 and open your eyes and read the verse quote.

You cannot possibly be “filtering”, or misreading numbers that are right in front of you eyes.

And when you go back and read Post # 801, I will not require you to apologize. Others on here might expect that, but I have no expectation of that.

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Hmmm, simply because your artificial (and un-biblical) constraint can’t be met all teachings are un-biblical?

No, not all teachings. Right now in this discussion just the SDA teaching that the 7th day sabbath is binding on all Christians, and that it will be a test of loyalty and fidelity to God in the last days, which if you believe we are living in right now, today would be included in that.

God bless all!!!

 

[djconklin]

I read what the verses said. You can view that as literalism if you want, but I don’t see how you make that leap after what I’ve said. Just because I do not believe the creation story to be literal, does not mean that I do not believe the Bible, nor that I am an atheist, nor that I am trying to destroy the Bible. I would never want Genesis chapters 1 and 2 to go away. It is a very important story for Christians.

There’s no importance when you have gutted it of meaning. The creation literally happened but that’s not the way to read it. obviously there was a sun before the 4th day–otherwise there’d be no light and no darkness.

Then you read like a blind man. Go back up a few posts to Post # 801 and open your eyes and read the verse quote.

You cannot possibly be “filtering”, or misreading numbers that are right in front of you eyes.

Asd I very carefully explained in my edited post I had typed in the wrong numbers into Bible works 7.0 and posted the texts that were two verses short of what you had given. Your insult is not warranted. Have a good day. Good bye.

 

[djconklin]

in the last days, which if you believe we are living in right now, today would be included in that.

1. Any decent theologian would tell you that according to Paul everything since the resurrection and ascension of Christ is the last days.
2. It certainly is the last days for those who die between now and the judgment day.
3. If the Sabbath is a test for you here and now then it is a test and this is the last days for you.
4. Revelation indicates that the Sabbath will be the test at the close of time:

Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

This verse echoes the 4th commandment from the “OT.”

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

djconklin thank you for your information about drinking and eating, but again; you have not answered the question about Pauls teaching not to be judged by no one in regards to the Sabbath?

I understand, no need to focus on these translations of drink and eat, it appears you have got your hands full with questions from Patrick. The topic is very interesting, and I will yield here and allow you more time with Patrick’s questions.

So I will leave the scriptures that teach against any new gospels or teachings other than the apostolic teachings that have been taught in scripture and handed down and are practiced today 2000years in the Roman Catholic church. Any thing other is a New gospel, and new teaching by false teachers according to the following scriptures: In case these were missed by you or others.

**Galatians 1: 6 I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you by (the) grace (of Christ) for a different gospel
7 (not that there is another). But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! **12 (If a new christian teaching is not from Jesus, then it is false teaching, recall who your founder is , if it is not Jesus, then it is a false teaching according to sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture )

Colosians 2; 16 **Let no one, then, pass judgment on you **in matters of food and drink or with regard to a festival or new moon or sabbath.

2 John 9 Anyone who is so “progressive” 7 as not to remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God; whoever remains in the teaching has the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him in your house or even greet him;
11 for whoever greets him shares in his evil works.

1 Tim.1: 3 ** to instruct certain people not to teach false doctrines **4 or to concern themselves with myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the plan of God that is to be received by faith. 6 **Some people have deviated from these and turned to meaningless talk,
7 wanting to be teachers of the law, but without understanding either what they are saying or what they assert with such assurance. **

1 Timothy 6; 3 **Whoever teaches something different and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the religious teaching
4 is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid disposition for arguments and verbal disputes. From these come envy, rivalry, insults, evil suspicions,
5 and mutual friction among people with corrupted minds, who are deprived of the truth, supposing religion to be a means of gain. **

2 Peter 2: 1 There were also false prophets among the people, **just as there will be false teachers among you, who will introduce destructive heresies and even deny the Master who ransomed them, bringing swift destruction on themselves. ****2 Many will follow their licentious ways, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled.
**

1John 2: 18 so now many antichrists have appeared. Thus we know this is the last hour.
22 Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist. 24 Let what you heard from the beginning remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father. 13 25 And this is the promise that he made us: eternal life.
26 I write you these things about those who would deceive you.

1 John 4: 1 Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh be longs to God,
3 and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus 2 does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world.
5 They belong to the world; accordingly, their teaching belongs to the world, and the world listens to them.
6We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

The creation literally happened but that’s not the way to read it. obviously there was a sun before the 4th day–otherwise there’d be no light and no darkness.

The Bible says that God created the Sun, Moon and Stars on the fourth day, you say He did not. Yet you want to take His institution of the Day or Rest literally. How convenient. Either Genesis 1 is literal or it is not literal, you can’t with any kind of intellectual integrity pick and chose verses from the creation story and say that these verses are literal and those verses are not.

You want to claim the Bible Alone as your source of authority until it becomes inconvenient to do so.

I am beginning to think that the reason you will not answer Pat’s questions clearly and simply is that you cannot.

As it is, you dance better than Fred Astair. Better be careful, you could get thrown out of the denomination for that.

 

[Protestant101]

The Bible says that God created the Sun, Moon and Stars on the fourth day, you say He did not. Yet you want to take His institution of the Day or Rest literally. How convenient. Either Genesis 1 is literal or it is not literal, you can’t with any kind of intellectual integrity pick and chose verses from the creation story and say that these verses are literal and those verses are not.

You want to claim the Bible Alone as your source of authority until it becomes inconvenient to do so.

I am beginning to think that the reason you will not answer Pat’s questions clearly and simply is that you cannot.

As it is, you dance better than Fred Astair. Better be careful, you could get thrown out of the denomination for that.

I hope you don’t bring all that garlic to Church “friend.”