Why is the Catholic Religion the truth?

[Mannyfit75]

Luke 13:19-20 - again, Jesus says the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed which grew into a tree. This refers to the earthly Church which develops over time, from an acorn to an oak tree (not the heavenly state of glory which is boundless and infinite).

Matt 12:28; Mark 1:15; Luke 11:20; 17:21 - these verses provide more examples of the " kingdom of God" as the kingdom on earth which is in our midst.

1 Chron. 28:5 - Solomon sits on the throne of the kingdom of the Lord. This shows that the “kingdom of God” usually means an earthly kingdom.

1 Chron. 29:23 - Solomon sits on the throne of the Lord as king in place of King David. The throne of God refers to the earthly kingdom.

Matt. 16:19 - Peter holds keys to this new Davidic kingdom and rules while the real King of David (Jesus) is in heaven.

Luke 12:41-42 - when Peter asks Jesus if the parable of the master and the kingdom was meant just for the apostles or for all people, Jesus rhetorically confirms to Peter that Peter is the chief steward over the Master’s household of God. “Who then, (Peter) is that faithful and wise steward whom his master will make ruler over His household…?”

Ezek. 37:24-25 - David shall be king over them forever and they will have one shepherd. Jesus is our King, and Peter is our earthly shepherd.

 

[slowly]

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As for ‘doing something about it’. . .I for one am grateful that what He is ‘doing about it’ so far is giving us the chance (as He so often did and does for His beloved children) to 'settle it ourselves and to repent and come to unity before He chastises us to help bring us back because we have refused to ‘do it ourselves’. God help us if we prove ourselves as hard-hearted and stubborn as our forebears because He will have to break our hearts of stone and humble us because only the humble are ready to listen and obey instead of bully, demand, and ignore Him.
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Are you saying that everyone that is not Catholic and does not believe in the Catholic teachings are “hard-hearted and stubborn”? Don’t you think that Protestants sincerely believe in their interpretation of the Bible just as Catholics do? And people like me that find it extremely difficult to choose between the 30000 different interpretations of the Bible, would that also be considered “hard-hearted and stubborn”?

I just cannot agree with this. How can God consider this stubborn if the Bible in the first place was written in such a unclear way that allows 30000 different interpretations? I cannot believe that God would blame our confusion when Christians scolars and theologians of all denominations make so much effort in understanding and interpreting it. This just does not add up.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Are you saying that everyone that is not Catholic and does not believe in the Catholic teachings are “hard-hearted and stubborn”? Don’t you think that Protestants sincerely believe in their interpretation of the Bible just as Catholics do? And people like me that find it extremely difficult to choose between the 30000 different interpretations of the Bible, would that also be considered “hard-hearted and stubborn”?

I just cannot agree with this. How can God consider this stubborn if the Bible in the first place was written in such a unclear way that allows 30000 different interpretations? I cannot believe that God would blame our confusion when Christians scolars and theologians of all denominations make so much effort in understanding and interpreting it. This just does not add up.

Protestants believe that know the truth so the faith they profess is true and thus called Catholic teachings in error. Catholics persist on the otherhand insist that the teachings of the CC is the fullness of truth.

It’s very difficult to convince them otherwise. It would require an act of God to have them understand Catholic teaching.

 

[slowly]

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I have to diagree I think its been very successful.
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I don’t understand how you can regard a proliferation of Christianity into 30000 denominations as successfull communication.

 

[slowly]

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It’s very difficult to convince them otherwise. It would require an act of God to have them understand Catholic teaching.

To an extent I agree. I am arguing though that if the Bible was just a tad less ambiguous then maybe an act of God would not have been necessary.

 

[Linkowski]

If you would like, I have started a new thread called - Catholics, Born Again?? Here I show more contradictory/mixed messages that are apparent in Catholic Teaching when compared to scripture. Need help understanding.

Thanks.

 

[StevenFrancis]

Quote from slowly : “I don’t understand how you can regard a proliferation of Christianity into 30000 denominations as successfull communication.”

Slowly:

It hasn’t been successful…YET. Please take a moment to honestly read this post, (and a couple others on here). You keep bringing up that it’s gone off track, and you ARE correct! But being correct that things are not working as God planned, doesn’t make it right. We do need to eventually all come home, and it is believed by Catholics, that we must and WILL all come home in the fullness of time. Please accept this in the kindly guided nature in which it is given, and take some careful and prayerful time to pray and discern. Bless you in your journey.

---

"One thing I think you might be overlooking in your questioning is the free will of man. God gave man free will. That doesn’t mean that we do right with it. Far from it. It doesn’t mean that God wanted thousands of churches. The Jews had to be corrected a few times during Mosaic times, and I believe the multiplicity of Christian sects, each more diluted than the next, will also be corrected in time. That doesn’t keep us from going off course in the first place, however. Free will allows us to succumb to evil and bad judjement all day long. He gives us messengers. He puts people in our paths. He points the way home constantly, but not everyone is even looking or listening. Instead of conforming to God’s Church, and unchanging Christian covenant, we instead try to mold God’s Word, and Traditions to suit our convenience. (somehow justifying war, hatred, bigotry, violence, slavery, tyrany, injustice, envy, jealousy, etc.).

We are sinners with free will, who contort the truth to suit our individual whimsy. We don’t WANT the Church to be the Truth. It interferes with our plans. It makes us feel guilty for living in sin. It would mean that we can’t kill our babies because we’re bummed out. It would mean that we shouldn’t have a death penalty. It would mean that we must look upon marriage as a Holy Sacrament rather than a party in Las Vegas. It would mean that people of the same sex can’t even BE married. It would mean that you have a covenental obligation to go to Church on Sunday’s and Holy Days. It would mean that you must acknowledge Mary as the Mother of God, and respect her role in Salvation. It would mean you have to try to understand Trinitarian existence. It would mean that you must put God above all else. Everything. He must ALWAYS be the FIRST consideration. Even above the Superbowl, March Madness, and Powerball winnings. It would mean you could not worship the almighty dollar. It would mean you must love others more than you love yourself. It would mean you have to give your life to save another’s. I’m just getting started. You get the idea. Very tall order. Who wants that? Of course there’s thousands of Churches. If we don’t start coming around soon to Jesus’ Church, there will be a new “Christian” denomination for every two or three people with a similar view point, or to get more to the point…no Church at all, which is already being spouted off by some very respected and “enlightened” people as being the solution to all the world’s problems. It very well may be, if all you think of is this single temporal existence on earth. True Christian faith is HARD. It is the most rewarding existence possible while still exchanging air in your lungs, but it is stultifyingly HARD.

God DOES know this. That’s WHY He left us only ONE true Church, which retains the seat of Saint Peter, the Magesterium, the Dogmas, etc., etc. etc… It has not been successful entirely, because there are an awful lot of lost lambs right now, admittedly. Even in light of this, however, as He promised, His bride, the Church IS STILL here, and always will be. It will continue to fill it’s mission in salvation history; past, present and future, preserving The High Priests’ teachings in Sacred Scripture AND Holy Tradition, just as it was left with Peter all those many years ago. So, as earnestly seeking pilgrims continue to discover and re-discover the truth, Jesus and his glorious Bride await with arms wide open. Ready to feast and rejoice at the return of it’s prodigal children.

May God bless and keep you,

Peace,

Steven"

 

[StevenFrancis]

If you would like, I have started a new thread called - Catholics, Born Again?? Here I show more contradictory/mixed messages that are apparent in Catholic Teaching when compared to scripture. Need help understanding.

Thanks.

Unless it is understood that scripture, and apostolic tradition are of equal value, and most importantly, that New Testament scripture is the product of Church, rather than Church being a product of scripture, you are going to find “mixed messages” as you call them all day long. It really just keeps going around and around. Those who have the misunderstanding of “scripture alone” (sola scriptura), are not able to resolve any of this until divine intervention occurs, and it all becomes just as clear as can be. I know. I was a hard sell, myself. Once the tumblers all fell into place however, (and believe me, this doesn’t happen overnight), everything makes complete sense. There are no more mixed messages. Just PLEASE keep in mind, at all times that Church preceeded scripture in salvation history. You’ll be miles ahead. I’ll bet just taking that one item into consideration, it will clear up about 1/2 of your mixed messages. The rest then will easily follow from there with study, prayer, and most important, discernment.

Peace be with you,

Steven

 

[slowly]

One thing I think you might be overlooking in your questioning is the free will of man. God gave man free will. That doesn’t mean that we do right with it. Far from it. It doesn’t mean that God wanted thousands of churches.

How can we do right with our free will if it is so difficult to ascertain the truth and know what to do in the first place?
In order to really exercise our free will we have to be fully informed. Let me use an example. If I go to a restaurant and I order from the menu and the waiter does not tell me about all the specials they have, was I really able to use my free will. My free will was limited by my knowledge.

Same goes here. Unless I am well informed about which Religion is the true Religion, how can I exercise my free will? The fact that I happen to be aware of what the Catholic Church teaches does not help me since there are 29999 other Christian denominations that each has a different teaching. In order to really exercise my free will I have to come to the knowledge of which Religion is more true than any other Religion. How do I come to this knowledge? This is what my question is about. I don’t have an answer yet.

If God made the Bible clear enough so that there was no uncertainty then I would have been fully informed and could exercise my free will.

The Jews had to be corrected a few times during Mosaic times, and I believe the multiplicity of Christian sects, each more diluted than the next, will also be corrected in time. That doesn’t keep us from going off course in the first place, however. Free will allows us to succumb to evil and bad judjement all day long.

This evil could have been avoided if the Bible was clearer. Let me explain this better. I am making an assumption here so please correct my if I am in error. Let’s consider the doctrinal pronouncements that are made under the authority of the Magisterium. Are these pronouncements written down somewhere? If they are written down on paper then lets consider a Bible that already included all those pronouncements of the Magisterium. Would such a Bible not be much clearer on what God want from us? (I am assuming of course that these pronouncements are clear and unambiguous in their meaning). Imagine a Bible that already contained the teaching of the Magisterium as pronounced and described by the Church. The possibility of such a Bible really excites me since then there would have been so much less confusion. Yet, this is not the case and I seem to be the only one that are concerned about it.

He gives us messengers. He puts people in our paths. He points the way home constantly, but not everyone is even looking or listening.

There are so many messengers of God, so many people in our path, I am way past confused. I really do not see how this is supposed to help us.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Have followed the thread just have not participated till now.

No matter how you see the truth of religion, Protestant or Catholic in this discussion, you must always allow for full “free will” after being born again. IMHO this is why I don’t believe in “once saved always saved”.

God created man so we could worship him with our “free will” and with our “personal desire” to give him praise and worship. God did not give us chains by God has given us freedom. Freedom comes at a price. Freedom to do something or not do something, comes with faith that turns into personal responsibility and desire to please God. The price is that when we fail and refuse to repent after we fall short of what God wants us to be, that at that particular time we are turning our backs on the gift of salvation. The gift is still there if we choose to use it we as free human beings just refuse to use it (self not God) and then must make an effort if we wish to regain (confession/reconciliation) the gift we refused to keep.

Also, God is very patient with us and will give us many chances to reside with Him. He desired us to be with Him. But, he will not hog tie us to worship Him. Worship of God is our gift back to Him. If worship was forced it would be like taxes non-negotiable and forced and thus not a gift at all.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

While the Bible is a very useful and necessary tool, it was never intended to be the ‘be-all and end-all’ for religious teaching or knowledge.

Therefore, claiming that the Bible is ambiguous etc. and blaming God for not making it ‘clearer’ is a non argument.

Catholics do have an authority to interpret the Bible and Sacred Tradition–the same authority which predated the New Testatment Scripture and which proceeded from the OT Scripture in the fulfilment of the prophecy which itself reached fullness --not just then but now and forever–in Jesus Christ. The Teaching Magesterium through the guidance of the Holy Spirit–sent by Christ to lead us into all truth (note that this does not presuppose that the Spirit would lead ‘everybody’ at ‘one particular time’ into ‘all truth right then and there forever and ever’).

God is a mystery and always will be since He is infinite and we are not. But He sent His Son and His Spirit to us, and they are still with us, guiding us with all the tools and the Living Word God gave us to help us to follow Him, with heart and soul, mind and strength. Each of us will make his own individual effort; some of us will fail at times but ultimately succeed; some will succeed sometimes but ultimately fail; that however is not because of some lack on God’s part, or even a ‘lack’ on our part, but because of a deliberate choice to turn from God. We do not condemn ourselves unknowingly.

 

[slowly]

Have followed the thread just have not participated till now.

No matter how you see the truth of religion, Protestant or Catholic in this discussion, you must always allow for full “free will” after being born again. IMHO this is why I don’t believe in “once saved always saved”.

God created man so we could worship him with our “free will” and with our “personal desire” to give him praise and worship. God did not give us chains by God has given us freedom. Freedom comes at a price. Freedom to do something or not do something, comes with faith that turns into personal responsibility and desire to please God. The price is that when we fail and refuse to repent after we fall short of what God wants us to be, that at that particular time we are turning our backs on the gift of salvation. The gift is still there if we choose to use it we as free human beings just refuse to use it (self not God) and then must make an effort if we wish to regain (confession/reconciliation) the gift we refused to keep.

Also, God is very patient with us and will give us many chances to reside with Him. He desired us to be with Him. But, he will not hog tie us to worship Him. Worship of God is our gift back to Him. If worship was forced it would be like taxes non-negotiable and forced and thus not a gift at all.

I think there is a misunderstanding here. I am not saying God should force us to believe in Him and worship Him. I am saying that unless we know which Religion is the truth we cannot worship Him in the correct way.

If the Bible was clear and we all knew extactly what God wanted from us, that does not take away our free will. On the contrary, only when we are well informed can we exercise our free will. Some people will then still choose not to do what He wants us to do, but at least then no one would have the excuse that they did not know.

This is not the case now. Sure, there are lots of people that are not listening at all to what God is saying. But there are a lot more people that are on the wrong track in spite of trying very hard to listen to what God is saying.

 

[slowly]

While the Bible is a very useful and necessary tool, it was never intended to be the ‘be-all and end-all’ for religious teaching or knowledge.

Therefore, claiming that the Bible is ambiguous etc. and blaming God for not making it ‘clearer’ is a non argument.

Catholics do have an authority to interpret the Bible and Sacred Tradition–the same authority which predated the New Testatment Scripture and which proceeded from the OT Scripture in the fulfilment of the prophecy which itself reached fullness --not just then but now and forever–in Jesus Christ. The Teaching Magesterium through the guidance of the Holy Spirit–sent by Christ to lead us into all truth (note that this does not presuppose that the Spirit would lead ‘everybody’ at ‘one particular time’ into ‘all truth right then and there forever and ever’).

God is a mystery and always will be since He is infinite and we are not. But He sent His Son and His Spirit to us, and they are still with us, guiding us with all the tools and the Living Word God gave us to help us to follow Him, with heart and soul, mind and strength. Each of us will make his own individual effort; some of us will fail at times but ultimately succeed; some will succeed sometimes but ultimately fail; that however is not because of some lack on God’s part, or even a ‘lack’ on our part, but because of a deliberate choice to turn from God. We do not condemn ourselves unknowingly.

I guess we are arguing in circles here.

I know the Catholics believe they have an authority on the interpretation of the Bible (the Magesterium), but the reason why they believe in this authority in the first place is because of their particular interpretation of this Bible that is so unclear regarding this teaching that Protestants can comfortably deny the existence of the Magesterium.

I guess I am asking why God did not “intend” the Bible to be the ‘be-all and end-all’ for religious teaching? This would have solved the problem of Religious teaching and taken away the difficulty of arguing for the existence of the Magesterium using a ambiguous Bible.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Hi

I am looking for a few good reasons why Catholics believe that their Religion is true.

All beliefs are based upon three forms of evidence:

1. Personal experience
2. Reason
3. Testimony of others

In evaluating the evidence, Catholicism is most compelling.

 

[slowly]

…
Therefore, claiming that the Bible is ambiguous etc. and blaming God for not making it ‘clearer’ is a non argument.
…

The Magesterium in all its glory is still not very successful (hence the 30000 Christian denominations). I argue that if the Bible was clear and unambiguous in what God wanted from us then maybe we would have had way less than 30000 denominations. I think this is a worthwhile outcome to argue for.

I am not per se blaming God for it but trying to understand why he did not inspire the Bible to be a tad clearer. This Magesterium invention is clearly not working very well (in the sense that it is not convincing to so many Christians).

 

[itsjustdave1988]

With regard to theism, there are two kinds:

1. God does not directly interact with His creation
2. God does directly interact with His creation.

I used to tend towad Deism. However, I don’t find it likely that the one who created this amazing universe is likely to be a God that simply ignores his creation. I think instead, that he directly interacts with his creation. I place much importance on sustaining loving relationships with the other beings I helped to bring into existence. Seems reasonable God does the same. Moreover, the overwhelming testimony of humanity has been in favor of a God of “relationship”, one who directly interacts with his creation.

Therefore, based upon reason, experience, and the testimony of others, I reject Desim in favor of a God who directly interacts with His creation.

This begs the next question…How has God interacted with creation?

 

[itsjustdave1988]

…I am not per se blaming God for it but trying to understand why he did not inspire the Bible to be a tad clearer.

St. Augustine, I believe, described God’s revelation as having purposeful ambiguity, because God desires we respond to Him in faith.

Much like a bride and a groom, who have confidence of their love for one another and pledge fidelity, yet when I married my wife, I didn’t really know everything about her. I forged ahead into the “mystery,” into the “ambiguity” based upon faith.

One should also note that even NATURE–God’s natural revelation to us–is ambiguous and filled with mystery. It is a fountain which can never be exhausted, and that’s what makes it so intriguing. If Scripture and Nature were to easy to figure out, we’d have no more intrique, no motive for continuing to examine the mystery, as there would be no mystery.

I don’t know about you, but I am quite happy to have some mystery in my relationships and mystery in my world. I especially enjoy the mystery of love. Without risk, I don’t even think love would be authentic. Thus, the risk of infidelity is a necessary component in our relationships. The relationships that last are those which are marked with fidelity, and in the face of “mystery” and “ambiguity,” such relationships still grow closer through faithfully seeking to know more about the “mystery.”

 

[slowly]

St. Augustine, I believe, described God’s revelation as having purposeful ambiguity, because God desires we respond to Him in faith.

Are you (and Augustine) then saying that God purposefully made the Bible (and His revelation in general) ambiguous? And as a result there are 30000 Christian denominations?

I guess it could be true. I am still not sure how I am supposed to respond to this though. Even if I want to “respond to Him in faith” how would I know which denomination or Bible based Religion I must do this through.

 

[StevenFrancis]

Are you (and Augustine) then saying that God purposefully made the Bible (and His revelation in general) ambiguous? And as a result there are 30000 Christian denominations?

I guess it could be true. I am still not sure how I am supposed to respond to this though. Even if I want to “respond to Him in faith” how would I know which denomination or Bible based Religion I must do this through.

I want to give this another try. There were NO denominations for God to guide you to. They did not exist. There was only the Church. His Church. God DID tell us which Church. He told us through the scriptures, He told us through history and tradition, Jesus, and his Apostles in unending succession. It’s not really ambiguous once you have had the conversion of heart that is available to anyone through prayer. Just from a practical standpoint. If you haven’t learned enough about Catholicism yet, you know that the Church has all 7 sacraments. You know it is the safest way to go out of all the other options, since it’s most important teachings have been preserved since the time of Christ. There is no reason for insecurity if you choose the The Church. If you take one of these other 29,999 denominations you keep talking about, then it seems like you run at least a slight risk of being incorrect. I’m not saying you WILL be incorrect. I’m saying you run a RISK of being incorrect, going any other way. This seems to be your biggest concern here. So, if you go with the Church, then you can NOT make a mistake unless you become a member of the Church in name only, and fail to believe the doctrines which are in your capability of understanding. In the Church you can at least be assured that the teachings and doctrines ARE the inerrant teachings of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, the one Son of God, and his Apostles, whom He himself Sent out!!! There is no ambiquity to sweat out, unless you play around with what was given.

Some of us don’t want to believe it. Some of us don’t believe it until we’ve ruled out everything else. Some will never believe it while they’re alive as humans due to stubborness or ignorance. I know. I was in both of those categories until my late 40’s!!! Some are never even SHOWN it because their hearts have become hard, and they won’t open up to the Holy Spirit. They are not at fault.

The truth comes to us all in the way God needs to communicate with us individually. After all, he knew you since before you were born. Some of us get it very slowly over a long period of time, and some of us are knocked off our horse and struck temporarily blind. But if you just pray, with an OPEN heart and mind, the truth will most definitely come. Then, when it does, we have to discern, so that we don’t end up rejecting it.

Truly, may God bless you in your continuing journey, and keep you safe, whether in the Holy Catholic Church, one of the 29,999 other Christian denominations, or even in something different altogether. All I can ask is that you not let your heart grow hard, study and pray, discern always, and most of all, listen very carefully for the promptings of the Holy Spirit. They are often quiet. They sometimes play on the wind, or appear to your eyes as you gaze at the mountains, or the clear blue sky over an endless prarie. Prayer is the way to turn up the volume.

Peace be with you,

Steven

 

[w_stewart]

It might be supported by Catholic history, but The Apostle Paul certainly doesn’t seem to agree with you.

Eph 1:22-23 And He put all under His feet and gave Him to be head over all things to the church. Which is His body; the fulness of Him who fills all in all. NKJV.

I’m not unusually bright, but this is very clear…even to me. Jesus Christ is the head of the one and only true church, and we the believers are the body. Any other description of God’s church is just the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting.

Eph 4:14-16 That we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting. But speaking the truth in love may grow up in all things into Him who is the head-Christ-. NKJV.

If it doesn’t agree with The Holy Bible, why bother?

God Bless,
Robert

It is only the Catholic Church that could trace its history back to the apostles. All historical records support this.

For the Catholic Church, Christ is the head of the Church. No argument over that. But Jesus also made Peter as the head of the Church. Of course, Peter is not above of Christ but a servant of Him.

The flock, meaning the Church, had been entrusted to Peter’s care by saying “Feed my sheep”.

John 21:15-17

15 When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs.

16 He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. 17 He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.