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prodromos
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They did.
They are not ‘split’, they are united. Indeed the structure of the Church is a reflection of the Trinity
Where, pray tell, did Jesus pray for unity among the apostles ‘behind Peter’?
John
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John
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Mickey
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Jesus Christ was preached throughout the world. The ministry of St Peter and ALL the Apostles was passed on to the WHOLE Church.
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Mickey
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Ah yes! The favorite Church Father quote to use by Roman Catholic apologists. This quote does not say what you think it is saying, my friend. Holy Orthodoxy does not deny that the ancient Roman Church was Apostolic and Orthodox? No one questions that it was a model of orthodoxy.
Sadly, the post schism Latin Church has added many innovations since St Irenaeus penned that quote.
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steve_b
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Luke 22:
24 a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 26 the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules (hegeomai) like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves. 28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you (plural) as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you(singular), Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen (sterizo) your brothers.”
Hegeomai (Jesus is referring to Simon)
1) to lead
a) to go beforeb) to be a leader
1) to rule, command2) to have authority over3) a prince, of regal power, governor, viceroy, chief, leading as respects influence, controlling in counsel, overseers or leaders of the churches4) used of any kind of leader, chief, commander5) the leader in speech, chief, spokesman
2) to consider, deem, account, think
Sterizo
1) to make stable, place firmly, set fast, fix
2) to strengthen, make firm
3) to render constant, confirm, one’s mind
John 21:16…
Jesus to Peter, Feed, lead, rule, shepherd, my sheep
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Mickey
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Jesus Christ knows that St Peter is about to deny Him thrice. He prays for him so that his faith may not fail–so that he does not fall into despair and hang himself like Judas. Then of course we see Jesus Christ restoring St Peter’s Apostolic standing at the end of St John’s Gospel–the triple affirmation for the triple denial–because St Peter wept and repented instead of falling into despair and suicide.
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steve_b
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Where do you come up with this stuff?
Peter wasn’t a despairing kinda guy. Besides, they all knew including Peter that Peter would deny Jesus because Jesus told them all ahead of time, how Satan was going to sift them, and that Peter would deny Jesus 3 times. There were no surprises here. Peter didn’t lose his apostolic standing, nor was he going to commit suicide.
:coffeeread: sheesh
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Mickey
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Sacred Scripture.
You knew him personally?
Wuh? They were told, but you can be sure that St Peter did not believe for a second that he would deny his Master. That is why he wept.
You see Steve, St Peter and Judas teach us some very valuable Scriptural lessons. Despair leads to death. Repentance leads to life. Jesus Christ prays for St Peter that he not fall into despair.
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anthony022071
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Only Peter had the ministry of care for the whole Church.
St. John Chrysostom:
“After that grave fall (for there is no sin equal to denial) after so great a sin, He brought him back to his former honor and entrusted him with the headship of the universal church, and, what is more than all, He showed us that he had a greater love for his master than any of the apostles, for saith he: ‘Peter lovest thou Me more than these?’” (Hom 5 de Poen 2, vol II, 308[311])
“He saith to him, ‘Feed My sheep.’ Why does He pass over the others and speak of the sheep to Peter? He was the chosen one of the apostles, the mouth of the disciples, and the head of the choir; for this reason Paul went up to see him rather than the others. And also to show him that he must have confidence now, since his denial had been purged away, He entrusts him with the rule over the brethren; and the fervent love which thou hast shown throughout, and in which thou didst boast, show now; and the life which thou saidst thou wouldst lay down for Me, give for My sheep.” (Hom 88[87] in Joann 1, vol VIII, 477-9[525-6])
“If anyone should say ‘Why then was it James who received the See of Jerusalem?’ I should reply that He made Peter the teacher not of that See but of the world.” (Homily 88[87])
St. Basil:
“And when he, the instrument of such and so great a judgment; he the minister of the so great wrath of God upon a sinner; that blessed Peter, who was preferred before all the disciples; who alone received a greater testimony and blessing than the rest; he to whom were entrusted the keys of the kingdom of heaven,…” (Procem. de Judic. Dei)
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Mickey
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Wrong. St Peter and ALL the Apostles.
St John Chrysosotom
For the Son of thunder, the beloved of Christ, the pillar of the Churches throughout the world, who holds the keys of heaven, who drank the cup of Christ, and was baptized with His baptism, who lay upon his Master’s bosom, with much confidence, this man now comes forward to us now
The merciful God is wont to give this honor to his servants, that by their grace others may acquire salvation; as was agreed by the blessed Paul, that teacher of the world who emitted the rays of his teaching everywhere
This (James) was bishop, as they say, and therefore he speaks last. There was no arrogance in the Church. After Peter, Paul speaks, and none silences him: James waits patiently; not starts up (for the next word). No word speaks John here, no word the other Apostles, but held their peace, for James was invested with the chief rule, and think it no hardship. So clean was their soul from love of glory. Peter indeed spoke more strongly, but James here more mildly: for thus it behooves one in high authority, to leave what is unpleasant for others to say, while he himself appears in the milder part.
He speaks from this time lowly things, on his way to His passion, that He might show His humanity. For He that hath built His church upon Peter’s confession, and has so fortified it, that ten thousand dangers and deaths are not to prevail over it…
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Mickey
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“The Church, the House of the Lord, is built upon the foundations of the faith of the apostles and prophets.” Saint Basil the Great (379 A.D.) Second Chapter of Isaiah
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Milliardo
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I would agree to this, and add that the early Church Fathers wrote at a time when the Catholic Church was within Orthodoxy; the situation then was different from what it is from 1054 onwards. Thus, at that time they wrote it, it was still true of the Patriarchate in Rome.Ah yes! The favorite Church Father quote to use by Roman Catholic apologists. This quote does not say what you think it is saying, my friend. Holy Orthodoxy does not deny that the ancient Roman Church was Apostolic and Orthodox? No one questions that it was a model of orthodoxy.
Sadly, the post schism Latin Church has added many innovations since St Irenaeus penned that quote.
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Mickey
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Amen brother.
That is why I find it ludicrous when amateur RC apologists (such as anthony) flood the forum with quotes which prove nothing except that the Latin Church was within the fold of Orthodoxy at one time–united with the other four Patriarchates.
The RC apologists are reading modernist Latin innovations into the early Church writings–it is unfortunate.
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Milliardo
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It’s like saying a 19th century book about America can be applied to 21st century America–of course that would be nonsensical, unless one thinks slavery and racism are still part of the general public.
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anthony022071
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Milliardo
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That would be quite a surprise, for St. Cyprian of Carthage clearly says all the bishops had that same ministry for the whole Church:
Assuredly the rest of the apostles were also the same as was Peter, endowed with a like partnership both of honour and power; but the beginning proceeds from unity.
Cyprian notes that the point of unity is Peter; however, that does not mean it ends with Peter, as he would go on to say that this unity is held by all the bishops.
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Mickey
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You attempt to play the quote game by assuming that people will read the papal innovations into the early Church–it does not wash.
St Augustine****
In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: ‘On him as on a rock the Church was built’…But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: ‘Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,’ that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven.’ For, ‘Thou art Peter’ and not ‘Thou art the rock’ was said to him. But ‘the rock was Christ,’ in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable (The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1).
**And I tell you…‘**You are Peter, Rocky, and on this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of the underworld will not conquer her. To you shall I give the keys of the kingdom. Whatever you bind on earth shall also be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall also be loosed in heaven’ (Mt 16:15-19). In Peter, Rocky, we see our attention drawn to the rock. Now the apostle Paul says about the former people, ‘They drank from the spiritual rock that was following them; but the rock was Christ’ (1 Cor 10:4). So this disciple is called Rocky from the rock, like Christian from Christ…Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the Church is to be recognized. Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter’s confession. What is Peter’s confession? ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ There’s the rock for you, there’s the foundation, there’s where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer (John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Vol. 6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327).
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Mickey
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St Ambrose
He, then, who before was silent, to teach us that we ought not to repeat the words of the impious, this one, I say, when he heard, ‘But who do you say I am,’ immediately, not unmindful of his station, exercised his primacy, that is, the primacy of confession, not of honor; the primacy of belief, not of rank. This, then, is Peter, who has replied for the rest of the Apostles; rather, before the rest of men. And so he is called the foundation, because he knows how to preserve not only his own but the common foundation…Faith, then, is the foundation of the Church, for it was not said of Peter’s flesh, but of his faith, that ‘the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.’ But his confession of faith conquered hell. And this confession did not shut out one heresy, for, since the Church like a good ship is often buffeted by many waves, the foundation of the Church should prevail against all heresies (The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1963), Saint Ambrose, Theological and Dogmatic Works, The Sacrament of the Incarnation of Our Lord IV.32-V.34, pp. 230-231).
He, then, who before was silent, to teach us that we ought not to repeat the words of the impious, this one, I say, when he heard, ‘But who do you say I am,’ immediately, not unmindful of his station, exercised his primacy, that is, the primacy of confession, not of honor; the primacy of belief, not of rank. This, then, is Peter, who has replied for the rest of the Apostles; rather, before the rest of men. And so he is called the foundation, because he knows how to preserve not only his own but the common foundation…Faith, then, is the foundation of the Church, for it was not said of Peter’s flesh, but of his faith, that ‘the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.’ But his confession of faith conquered hell. And this confession did not shut out one heresy, for, since the Church like a good ship is often buffeted by many waves, the foundation of the Church should prevail against all heresies (The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1963), Saint Ambrose, Theological and Dogmatic Works, The Sacrament of the Incarnation of Our Lord IV.32-V.34, pp. 230-231).
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Mickey
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St. Cyril of Alexandria**, Letter to Nestorius:
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“Peter and John were equal in dignity and honor. Christ is the foundation of all -the unshakeable Rock upon which we are all built as a spiritual edifice.”
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Mickey
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“The rock is the unity of faith, not the person of Peter.” -Saint Cyprian (258 A.D.), De Catholicae Eccesiae Unitate, cap. 4-5
**“The Rock (**petra) is the blessed and only rock of the faith confessed by the mouth of Peter. It is on this Rock of the confession of faith that the Church is built.”
**-Saint Hilary of **Poitiers (c. 315-368), 2nd Book on the Trinity.
"If you believe that God has raised the whole building of His Church on Peter alone, what will you say of John, the Son of Thunder? What will you say of each of the apostles? Will you venture to say that the gates of hell shall not prevail against Peter in particular, but shall prevail against all the others ? Are not the words addressed to them all? -****
Saint Jerome** (419 A.D.), 6th Book on Matthew**
**“The Rock (**petra) is the blessed and only rock of the faith confessed by the mouth of Peter. It is on this Rock of the confession of faith that the Church is built.”
**-Saint Hilary of **Poitiers (c. 315-368), 2nd Book on the Trinity.
"If you believe that God has raised the whole building of His Church on Peter alone, what will you say of John, the Son of Thunder? What will you say of each of the apostles? Will you venture to say that the gates of hell shall not prevail against Peter in particular, but shall prevail against all the others ? Are not the words addressed to them all? -****
Saint Jerome** (419 A.D.), 6th Book on Matthew**
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Mickey
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“The word ‘Rock’ has only a denominative value–it signifies nothing but the steadfast and firm faith of the apostles.” -**Saint Cyril of Alexandria (444 A.D)
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