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poche
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Satan is the father of lies. He was offering to Jesus what was not his (Satan’s) to give to anybody.
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Vico
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The type of will is not a intention used for inheritance, but the free will of the immortal spiritual rational soul, which is one of its attributes.
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fhansen
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Neither Thomism or Molinism are strictly deterministic as Calvinism is. Either way regardless of what any of those schools of thought teach, at the end of the day the Church teaches the truth, and the truth doesn’t conflict with itself.
So the truth about man: Man is a free moral agent who is obligated to make morally right choices but who needs grace/relationship with God in order to do so. Man is bound to seek out the right way, to seek God, and yet he’s not forced to fulfill that obligation even though God desires that he does, and offers sufficient grace to accomplish that goal. Never is the will of man completely overridden. If it were then nothing of the bible and the centuries-old story of God’s dealing with man, of the struggle and drama of “salvation history”, makes any sense.
To sum this up, in Catholic teaching man cannot possibly save himself; he needs grace. But grace can be resisted.
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Wesrock
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You don’t need to be a Thomist or a Molinist to be a good Catholic. But you can also pursue theology in an intellectual and still approach God as a child. There is no stipulation that the study of theology must be simple, and there’s no stipulation that one must be a theologian to be a good Catholic.
The issue for some, in today’s world, is unfortunately that between Protestantism on one side and secular skepticism on the other, some people seem to “need” some grounding in theology and apologetics in order to be firm in their faith. Not everyone needs that, nor is it necessary for a Catholic life, but there is plenty out there teasing and prying at people’s doubts.
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Latin
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No reason for God to override our Free wills, He has created our Free wills as follows:
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;
The three Divine or Theological Virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity are infused with Sanctifying grace. (De fide.)
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308 "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
As CCC 308 explains: "For God is at work in us, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
So, why would God override our Free wills which is His creation.
If God would override our Free wills, He would override His own creation.
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Yes in the teachings of Molinism graces can be resisted, we may also say; grace can be resisted also in Thomism, but no Thomist resists grace because: In the teachings of Thomism God created us includes God created our Free wills as follows:
Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it . But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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St. Thomas teaches that God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3:
St. Thomas also teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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For Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 1) that the "Divine will or power is called fate. "
But the Divine will or power is not in creatures, but in God. Therefore fate is not in creatures but in God.
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The Divine will is cause of all things that happen, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.
The same is true for events in our lives. Relative to us they often appear to be by chance.
But relative to God, who directs everything according to his divine plan, nothing occurs by chance.
Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)
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I believe the teachings of Thomism is the summit of Catholic Theology and to be a Thomist Catholic is a great privilege.
Of course, no one need to be a Thomist Catholic to be a good Catholic.
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God bless
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fhansen
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Thank you. For myself Molinism tends closer to the truth. But the bottom line will always be what the Church teaches in any case. There is no way that God can will totally for us without destroying the concept of free will. Scripture telling us that God desires none to perish while acknowledging that some will perish, and the Lord telling us to pray “Thy will be done”, which allows for the possibility of it not being done, clearly point to the fact that man’s freedom can be used and abused to oppose God’s will. When God told Adam not to eat of the fruit, did He want Adam to eat of the fruit?
Otherwise it’s game over. There would be absolutely no reason for human history to proceed as it did after the Fall if God’s purpose was ultimately to simply stock heaven with the elect and stock hell with the rest, or, alternatively, end up with everyone in heaven (universalism) if His plan was not to patiently work with man over the course of time to the point where we might, if we’re willing, be drawn or coaxed into accepting the light when we finally see it. A work of educating and maturing humanity. He may as well have prevented Adam from sinning to begin with-if only His will is involved at the end of the day.
So Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma can correctly observe:
"Internal supernatural grace is absolutely necessary for the beginning of faith and of salvation." (De fide)
"God, by an Eternal Resolve of His Will, predestines certain men, on account of their foreseen sins, to eternal rejection." (De fide)
"The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistible." (De fide)
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Latin
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We tend to think the story Adam and Eve is written in literal language but this is not the case, it is written in figurative language.
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There are at least five distinct categories/ types of figurative language.
They are: metaphors, similes, personification, hyperbole, and symbolism .
CCC 390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. 264 Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.265
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We can be sure, the story of Adam and Eve is NOT WRITTEN IN LITERAL LANGUAGE.
We CAN be also sure, “God is the author of all causes and effects, God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”
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They freely committed their “fall,” but their “fall” was Designed, Decreed and Foreordained by God from all eternity for the benefit of the human race (CCC 310; 311; 314; 324; etc.). – This is Theological Fact, in Catholic Theology.
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At their “fall” nothing happened by chance but everything happened according to Gods foreordained plan for the benefit of the human race.
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When in the figurative language (not literal) God told Adam not to eat of the fruit, He is not only want Adam to eat of the fruit but his eating of the fruit is done accordingly His eternally foreordained and decreed plan.
We must clearly understand, Adam’s “fall” was a crucial part of Gods original plan.
At their “fall” everything happened according to God’s original and decreed plan for the benefit of the human race.
Please read my above more detailed post No. 28 on this subject.
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God bless
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Zaccheus
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NO!
God did not want Adam to eat of the fruit. God wanted Adam to obey and be blessed. Adam sinned, and God did not in any way desire for Adam to sin.
Yes, God knew Adam would fail the test. But knowing something will happen is not the same as making it happen.
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db90
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Yeah I’m going to go out on a limb here and say death was stolen. And He sent His Only Son Iesus to address it.
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Latin
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Zaccheus, Did you read my above post on this subject No. 28 as I suggested?Latin:
NO!
God did not want Adam to eat of the fruit. God wanted Adam to obey and be blessed. Adam sinned, and God did not in any way desire for Adam to sin.
Yes, God knew Adam would fail the test. But knowing something will happen is not the same as making it happen.
Thank you for your answer in advance.
God bless
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fhansen
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Right, God foreknew the event-and used it for His purposes. Otherwise God would either be schizophrenic-or quite the hypocrite to command one thing while wanting another.
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Latin
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Catholic Encyclopedia : Evil
“But we cannot say without denying the Divine omnipotence, that another equally perfect universe could not be created in which evil would have no place.”
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310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin .
Eph.1:11; … being predestined according to the purpose of Him who work all things according to the council of His will.
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As you see above Zaccheus, if God did not in any way desire for Adam to sin, then God would created Adam the way not to sin.
But God created Adam the way to sin, because God wanted to create the dramas of evil and sin.
So, God needed Adam to sin, and He created/ infused Adam to sin.
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1 Cor.4:7 … And what do you have that you did not receive?
What God infuses into us, that will come out from us. – “God is the author of all causes and effects.”
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In The Mystery of Predestination by John Salza explains;
Page 113; “God, however, willed to permit Adam to reject His grace and to sin.” – His wisdom He so ordered the events of his sin, which He Designed, Decreed and Ordered form all eternity, reasons described in CCC 310; 311; 314; 324; etc.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains.
“God is the author of all causes and effects, but is not the author of sin, because an action ceases to be sin if God wills it to happen. Still God is the cause of sin.
God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,
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303 The sacred books powerfully affirm God’s absolute sovereignty over the course of events.
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God’s will is the cause of all things, every event that happen or will happen in the universe.
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Nothing that is outside of God’s creating, sustaining, and governing will.
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As you see above Zaccheus, if God did not in any way desire for Adam to sin and he committed his sin without God’s will, that would be outside God’s creating, sustaining, and governing will, which is an absolute impossibility.
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“God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”
As you see above Zaccheus, Adam’s act of sin and in fact every act of sin in the world and every good/ salutary act in the world done under God’s complete and perfect control.
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God bless
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Zaccheus
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@Latin I read your post 28.
God permitted sin to happen. God did not will or desire sin to happen.
God permitted a world in which sin and evil could happen. God did not decree that sin and evil would happen.
God wants children to love and obey Him, not puppets.
God permitted sin to happen. God did not will or desire sin to happen.
God permitted a world in which sin and evil could happen. God did not decree that sin and evil would happen.
God created Adam with free will, which meant Adam was capable of sin. That does not in the least mean that God forced Adam to sin. Nor does it mean that God desired Adam to sin. God desired that Adam pass the test and receive the reward of living in bliss.
God wants children to love and obey Him, not puppets.
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AlNg
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The free will that you supposedly have is extremely limited. You can’t always do what you would have wanted to do.
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AlNg
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Why is it infinitely wise and good to allow children to suffer hideous torture as the atomic bomb falls close to them? What did this child do to deserve such extreme pain and agony?
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Latin
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Thank you AINg for your question.
The best answer I can give is this as follows:
CCC 310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin .
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Our sufferings is caused by God’s creation of the dramas of evil and sin.
THE FRUITS OF OUR SUFFERINGS:
Life without suffering would produce spoiled brats, not joyful saints.
Our struggle and tribulation while journeying towards our ultimate perfection through the dramas of evil and sin is the cost which in-prints the virtue/ nobility into our souls – the cost of our road to nobility and perfection.
In this world man has to learn by experience and contrast, and to develop by the overcoming of obstacles (Lactantius, “De ira Dei”, xiii, xv in “P.L.”, VII, 115-24. St. Augustine “De ordine”, I, vii, n. 18 in “P.L.”, XXXII, 986).
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324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
This is above the reason God created the dramas of evil and sin.
I believe, not even one child deserve any sufferings, I’m not sure but maybe God gives the terrible suffering children some kind of heavenly sedatives, God can do all things.
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God bless
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Vico
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That will of God is a permissive will. Note this from the Council of Council of Orange II:
And the Council of Trent, Session VI (Jan. 13, 1547):
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fhansen
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”311 Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil , incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil. He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:
For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.“
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Vico
Guest
Death is twofold: of the body and of the soul, though the soul remains immortal, it lost justification.
The potential of immortality of the body was lost through sin, as St. Paul writes in Romans 5, sin brought death:
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Latin
Guest
Catholic Encyclopedia: Evil
“But we cannot say without denying the Divine omnipotence, that another equally perfect universe could not be created in which evil would have no place.”
As we see above Zaccheus, if God would willed He could create this world in which evil would have no place.
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310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin .
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As we see above Zaccheus: God ACTIVELLY WILLED to create in this world the dramas of evil and sin and this is what He created at His cause of the fall of Adam. – 308 God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
“For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”
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In The Mystery of Predestination by John Salza explains;
Page 113; “God, however, willed to permit Adam to reject His grace and to sin.”
1 Cor.4:7; … And what do you have that you did not receive? – Before Adam could able to commit an act of sin:
God had to infuse Adam the ability to commit an act of sin,
God had to infuse Adam the desire to commit an act of sin,
God had to cooperate with Adam in the act of sin by providing to Adam the power of operation which would enable Adam to commit the act of sin. – Without Gods cooperation in the act, we can do nothing,
308 God is the first cause of the event of our act, in both sin and salutary act.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains.
“God is the author of all causes and effects, but is not the author of sin, because an action ceases to be sin if God wills it to happen. Still God is the cause of sin.
God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”
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As we see above Zaccheus, plain and simple:
God is the cause of our sins.
God exercises complete and perfect control over all the events of our actions, He directs all, even evil and sin itself to the final end.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,
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303 The sacred books powerfully affirm God’s absolute sovereignty over the course of events.
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As we see above Zaccheus: God’s will is the cause of all things, every event that happen or will happen in the universe, He directs all, even evil and sin itself to the final end, because evil and sins ministers to God’s design
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God bless
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