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fhansen
Guest
That would make God evil. You have it wrong while Salza had it right when he said, as you quoted:
“God, however, willed to permit Adam to reject His grace and to sin.”
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“God, however, willed to permit Adam to reject His grace and to sin.”
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Latin
Guest
CORRECTION OF MY PREVIOUS POSTLatin:
That would make God evil. You have it wrong while Salza had it right when he said, as you quoted:
“God, however, willed to permit Adam to reject His grace and to sin.”
Rom.7:23; But I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.
Rom.7:8; But sin … produced in me all manner of evil desire.
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1 Cor.4:7; … And what do you have that you did not receive?
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It is clear, God infused into us the law of sin which produces in us all manner of evil desire. – Plain and simple.
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FURTHERMORE:
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains.
“God is the author of all causes and effects, but is not the author of sin, because an action ceases to be sin if God wills it to happen. Still God is the cause of sin.
God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,
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SUM UP
God directs and causes us to commit even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
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REASON GOD DIRECTS AND CAUSES US TO COMMIT ACTS OF EVIL AND SINS
311 For almighty God, . . . because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.177
324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
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I hope Fhansen this time I get it right, if not please correct me.
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God bless
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fhansen
Guest
I don’t know if any Protestant groups teach that even, but in any case that would make God worse than satan, and heaven worse than hell. The Church teaches that Adam sinned simply because he willed to sin, preferring himself to God, without a great deal more understood about it than that.
That preference, that foolhardy will for autonomy from God can be reversed within each one of us as were reconciled with God, Adam having distanced or set humanity apart from Him. But as Jesus came to reveal, ” Apart from Me you can do nothing.”.
So the chief reason fallen man sins is not because God has infused him with that desire, but because man is now born separated from God, the source of life, without direct or intimate “knowledge of God” with all that implies. That’s the knowledge Jesus came to give us, so that we may turn back to Him, if and as we will. We’re “born dead”, so to speak, in need of being “born again”.
“Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.” Rev 3
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Latin
Guest
Sound very nice, I always liked it.
Before I was familiar with Catholic Theology in particular Soteriology I was a Molinist Catholic and when I read it I always felt sorry for people who reject The Lord Jesus Christ by resisting God’s graces.
I felt they still rejecting The Lord Jesus Christ for their peril and I also believed, if they will never believe Christ they will going to hell for their own fault because they resisting God’s graces.
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Now as a Thomist Catholic I still feel sorry for people who are not yet believe The Lord Jesus Christ but this feeling of sorry is different, now I believe God not yet called them for everlasting life in Heaven, because the timing of His calling is His decision and His calling to everlasting life in Heaven will come for everyone at His timing as it is described in ante prævisa merita.
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The Catholic dogma
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA The predestination of the elect explains;
ante prævisa merita
“Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment.”
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MERITS CANNOT BE CONSIDERED FOR THE FOLLOWING REASONS
Ibid. 6. 15: "If then your merits are God’s gifts, God does not crown your merits as your merits, but as His gifts."
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Ep. 154, 5. 16: "What then is the merit of man before grace by which merit he should receive grace? Since only grace makes every good merit of ours, and when God crowns our merits, He crowns nothing else but His own gifts."
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St. Augustine is called, rightly, the Doctor of Grace, for his great work. Augustine showed very well our total dependence on God.
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CATHOLICS FREE TO CHOOSE TO BELIEVE EITHER THOMISM OR MOLINISM.
I have two question for you Fhansen, this questions may seem foolishness, but it is not.
If a Catholic choose to or he can only believe Molinism, must he believe the teachings of Thomism as well, or he free to reject the teachings of Thomism?
If a Catholic choose to or he can only believe Thomism, must he believe the teachings of Molinism as well, or he free to reject the teachings of Molinism?
I know this two questions seems like foolishness, but in fact very important questions.
Thank you Fhansen for your answers in advance.
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God Bless
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fhansen
Guest
Thanks Latin. The Church doesn’t side with or totally accept and endorse either as far as I know. She simply teaches certain things regarding predestination, and leaves the matter at that. And Thomists, by the way, do not believe in universalism as you do.
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Latin
Guest
Thank you for your answer Fhansen.
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The way I see it, Thomism and Molinism seems two DIFFERENT RELIGION.
There is no way that at the same time someone can believe both, because they are totally against each other.
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In Thomism God decides man’s salvation and God CAUSES man’s salvation.
THE FOLLOWING PARAGRAPHS OF THE CCC AND DOGMA BUILT ON THOMISM
301 With creation, God does not abandon his creatures to themselves. He not only gives them being and existence, but also, and at every moment, upholds and sustains them in being, enables them to act and brings them to their final end. Recognizing this utter dependence with respect to the Creator is a source of wisdom and freedom, of joy and confidence.
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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."171
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide).
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THE FOLLOWING PARAGRAPH OF THE CCC AND DOGMA BUILT ON MOLINISM
1730 “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.”
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“The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistible.” (De fide) – THOMISTS DOES NOT BELIEVE EFFICACIOUS GRACE IS RESISTIBLE.
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The “buzz word” of Molinism, grace is not irresistible, the idea of resistible grace given birth to Molinism. – Without resistible grace Molinism is illegitimate.
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THOMISTS BELIEVE
308 For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being … – So, Thomists NEVER RESISTS EFFICACIOUS GRACES.
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Also: There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide).
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St. Thomas teaches that God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3:
St. Thomas also teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91. – So, Thomists never resists the efficacious graces of God.
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As we see Fhansen, Catholics free to choose to believe either Thomism or Molinisum, then would be foolishness for the Church to force us Catholics (without success anyway) that at the same time we have to believe both the teachings of Thomism and the teachings of Molinism.
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God bless
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The way I see it, Thomism and Molinism seems two DIFFERENT RELIGION.
There is no way that at the same time someone can believe both, because they are totally against each other.
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In Thomism God decides man’s salvation and God CAUSES man’s salvation.
THE FOLLOWING PARAGRAPHS OF THE CCC AND DOGMA BUILT ON THOMISM
301 With creation, God does not abandon his creatures to themselves. He not only gives them being and existence, but also, and at every moment, upholds and sustains them in being, enables them to act and brings them to their final end. Recognizing this utter dependence with respect to the Creator is a source of wisdom and freedom, of joy and confidence.
.
308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."171
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
.
There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide).
.
THE FOLLOWING PARAGRAPH OF THE CCC AND DOGMA BUILT ON MOLINISM
1730 “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.”
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“The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistible.” (De fide) – THOMISTS DOES NOT BELIEVE EFFICACIOUS GRACE IS RESISTIBLE.
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The “buzz word” of Molinism, grace is not irresistible, the idea of resistible grace given birth to Molinism. – Without resistible grace Molinism is illegitimate.
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THOMISTS BELIEVE
308 For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being … – So, Thomists NEVER RESISTS EFFICACIOUS GRACES.
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Also: There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide).
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St. Thomas teaches that God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3:
St. Thomas also teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91. – So, Thomists never resists the efficacious graces of God.
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As we see Fhansen, Catholics free to choose to believe either Thomism or Molinisum, then would be foolishness for the Church to force us Catholics (without success anyway) that at the same time we have to believe both the teachings of Thomism and the teachings of Molinism.
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God bless
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Babaganoush
Guest
You want to know what Catholics believe but you don’t want to read references to catholic documents?
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fhansen
Guest
You’re not quite understanding this correctly though. This concept is related to Acts 17:28: “…for “‘In Him we live and move and have our being’”.
No theologian denies that man is totally dependent upon God for everything, including the ability to pull a trigger to murder an innocent human being. This is basic Christianity. But man’s freedom exists within the very fact that God does not will man to murder, to pull that trigger, even as He enables each and every such act. Man’s freedom consists in the ability to oppose even God’s will-a gift to be sure, but one that carries with it great responsibility.
Man is a created being, but a moral being, obligated but not forced to do the right thing. If that fact is not true then there is absolutely no reason for the Christian faith, no reason for Christ to come, no reason to hear the Word, no reason for the Word to be spoken, from Genesis through Revelation. Grace is poured out upon man; as Christians we know that. The human will is the wildcard.
And BTW, it doesn’t matter a bit if both Thomists and Molinists have it wrong. The bottom line is still the teachings of the Church.
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Latin
Guest
God forces no one, God enlightens our mind and we freely do what He wills us to do.
Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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For Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 1) that the "Divine will or power is called fate. "
But the Divine will or power is not in creatures, but in God. Therefore fate is not in creatures but in God.
The Divine will is cause of all things that happen, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.
The same is true for events in our lives. Relative to us they often appear to be by chance.
But relative to God, who directs everything according to his divine plan, nothing occurs by chance.
Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)
Of course we are all responsible. The above teachings is the teachings of our Molinist brothers and sisters.
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OUR THOMIST TEACHINGS ON THIS SUBJECT
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains.
“God is the author of all causes and effects, but is not the author of sin, because an action ceases to be sin if God wills it to happen. Still God is the cause of sin.
God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”
.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,
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303 The sacred books powerfully affirm God’s absolute sovereignty over the course of events.
2022; The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
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While God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe, we decide and we act according to our free will decisions.
God is the author of all causes and effects and His Divine will is cause of all things that happen, no surprises nothing happen by chances.
God is Omniscient, His creation is based on His Divine omniscience, there is no wild card in His creation unless He purposely created the wild card, but as He purposely and scientifically created it, it is not a wild card any longer.
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God bless
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fhansen
Guest
No, that’s the whole point of our faith and salvation history, that it’s not a matter of fate but also of the human will. God can cause us to will whatever He wants but we are total puppets and pawns in an unnecessarily evil and sinful and harmful world if God’s will is the direct cause of all human desire and acts, if He wills the evil that man does IOW. It’s only because evil is caused by man’s abuse of his freedom that God is not evil. Otherwise He is evil and the cause of all evil. He’d then be a liar and don’t expect heaven to be anything as promised. Nothing of our faith is of any worth at all if such is the case.
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Latin
Guest
Thank you Fhansen.
The whole matter boils down to the answer of this question:
Does God wills, directs, causes the evil and sin we commit?
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QUESTION:
Could God create this world in which evil/ sin would have no place?
Catholic Encyclopedia: Evil
“But we cannot say without denying the Divine omnipotence, that another equally perfect universe could not be created in which evil would have no place.”
ANSWER:
As we see, if God would willed He could create this world like the life is in Heaven, free will, no evil, no sin, no worry of hell, but we would be spoiled brats, not joyful saints. – Free will is ‘NOT!!!’ the cause of sin!!!
310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin.
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THE REASON GOD CREATED THE DRAMAS OF EVIL AND SIN
Life without suffering would produce spoiled brats, not joyful saints.
Our struggle and tribulation while journeying towards our ultimate perfection through the dramas of evil and sin is the cost which in-prints the virtue/ nobility into our souls – the cost of our road to nobility and perfection.
In this world man has to learn by experience and contrast, and to develop by the overcoming of obstacles (Lactantius, “De ira Dei”, xiii, xv in “P.L.”, VII, 115-24. St. Augustine “De ordine”, I, vii, n. 18 in “P.L.”, XXXII, 986).
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With infinite wisdom and goodness GOD CREATED THE DRAMAS OF EVIL AND SIN for the benefit of the entire human race.
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“His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design” (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,
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QUESTION:
Does God wills man to murder and to pull the trigger?
ANSWER:
He designed, decreed, wills, directs, causes all events within the universe, even evil and sin itself.
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THINK ABOUT
If God would willed He could create this world like the life is in Heaven, free will, no evil, no sin, no worry of hell, NOT EVEN THE IDEA OF HELL.
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God created far better then that, in this world God trains us by experience and contrast, and to develop by the overcoming of obstacles to be noble and joyful saints in Heaven.
God created the dramas of evil and sin for the benefit of the entire human race.
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324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
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Jonah 3:4; Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.
God promised destruction and hell to all Ninevites, and at the end God provided Universal Salvation to the Ninevites.
This is the way God works, promise hell and provides Universal Salvation.
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God bless
The whole matter boils down to the answer of this question:
Does God wills, directs, causes the evil and sin we commit?
.
QUESTION:
Could God create this world in which evil/ sin would have no place?
Catholic Encyclopedia: Evil
“But we cannot say without denying the Divine omnipotence, that another equally perfect universe could not be created in which evil would have no place.”
ANSWER:
As we see, if God would willed He could create this world like the life is in Heaven, free will, no evil, no sin, no worry of hell, but we would be spoiled brats, not joyful saints. – Free will is ‘NOT!!!’ the cause of sin!!!
310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin.
.
THE REASON GOD CREATED THE DRAMAS OF EVIL AND SIN
Life without suffering would produce spoiled brats, not joyful saints.
Our struggle and tribulation while journeying towards our ultimate perfection through the dramas of evil and sin is the cost which in-prints the virtue/ nobility into our souls – the cost of our road to nobility and perfection.
In this world man has to learn by experience and contrast, and to develop by the overcoming of obstacles (Lactantius, “De ira Dei”, xiii, xv in “P.L.”, VII, 115-24. St. Augustine “De ordine”, I, vii, n. 18 in “P.L.”, XXXII, 986).
.
With infinite wisdom and goodness GOD CREATED THE DRAMAS OF EVIL AND SIN for the benefit of the entire human race.
.
“His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design” (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,
.
QUESTION:
Does God wills man to murder and to pull the trigger?
ANSWER:
He designed, decreed, wills, directs, causes all events within the universe, even evil and sin itself.
.
THINK ABOUT
If God would willed He could create this world like the life is in Heaven, free will, no evil, no sin, no worry of hell, NOT EVEN THE IDEA OF HELL.
.
God created far better then that, in this world God trains us by experience and contrast, and to develop by the overcoming of obstacles to be noble and joyful saints in Heaven.
God created the dramas of evil and sin for the benefit of the entire human race.
.
324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
.
Jonah 3:4; Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.
God promised destruction and hell to all Ninevites, and at the end God provided Universal Salvation to the Ninevites.
This is the way God works, promise hell and provides Universal Salvation.
.
God bless
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fhansen
Guest
The Church teaches that God created this world because presumably He can ultimately bring the greatest good out of it. The sin and evil that He allows but does not directly will, meanwhile play their parts.
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EndTimes
Guest
Why is the God of this world not God if he is the creator?
Satan is not GodSatan’s spirit of evil permeates part of this worldly world and in that manner is called prince of this world. He’s already defeated in Eternity… This world shall be made anew aka a New Earth…
Keep your Faith in Jesus.
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