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Wesrock
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Beryllos and Hodos both gave perfectly fine answers, too.
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Beryllos
Guest
Great! Then please report your findings here for our benefit.
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AlNg
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Not always. For example, if the artist is always present to protect his work and the artist has the security, the weapons, the might, the ability and the knowledge to prevent the vandal from getting near his work, then the vandal cannot destroy the artist’s work.
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AlNg
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I thought it was your point?
Wasn’t this your argument?
Because in that post, I was focusing in on your particular argument, not the others.
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db90
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I understand the trinity as best as can any mystery. I’ll just refer to this as THT (the Holy Trinity) However, my concern is more related to how we are told that the THT is the God not of this world but the world to come. But if THT fulfilled the Old Testament by the Son, how would the THT lose control or how could we be told that this is not true. How could there be a control issue presently? Liberalism - eg free will? It’s as though the world was stolen.
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Vico
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God gave free will to angels and mankind, and after that came the fall of some angels whereby they became demons eternally, and then occurred the fall of mankind resulting in the expulsion of Adam and Eve from paradise. So from then can be distinguished the Kingdom of Heaven or the Kingdom of God, which means not so much the actual kingdom (creation) as the sway of the king, for not all were in the sway of God. Catholic Encyclopedia states that:
MAURICE, The Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven (London, 1888); SCHURER, The Jewish People in the Time of Christ, div. II, vol. II; WEISS, Apoligie du Christianisme, II and X; and especially ROSE, Etudes sur les Evangiles (Paris, 1902).
Pope, H. (1910). Kingdom of God. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08646a.htm
John 8
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Latin
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Catholic Encyclopedia : Evil
“But we cannot say without denying the Divine omnipotence, that another equally perfect universe could not be created in which evil would have no place.”
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310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin .
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As we see above, in this world God created the dramas of evil and sin and this is what He created at His cause of the fall of Adam.
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In The Mystery of Predestination by John Salza explains;
Page 113; “God, however, willed to permit Adam to reject His grace and to sin.” – His wisdom He so ordered the events of his sin, which He Designed, Decreed and Ordered form all eternity, reasons described in CCC 310; 311; 314; 324; etc.
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THE FRUITS OF OUR SUFFERINGS: – (Our sufferings is caused by God’s creation of the dramas of evil and sin.)
Life without suffering would produce spoiled brats, not joyful saints.
Our struggle and tribulation while journeying towards our ultimate perfection through the dramas of evil and sin is the cost which in-prints the virtue/ nobility into our souls – the cost of our road to nobility and perfection.
In this world man has to learn by experience and contrast, and to develop by the overcoming of obstacles (Lactantius, “De ira Dei”, xiii, xv in “P.L.”, VII, 115-24. St. Augustine “De ordine”, I, vii, n. 18 in “P.L.”, XXXII, 986).
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324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
This is above the reason God created the dramas of evil and sin.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains.
“God is the author of all causes and effects, but is not the author of sin, because an action ceases to be sin if God wills it to happen. Still God is the cause of sin.
God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,
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303 The sacred books powerfully affirm God’s absolute sovereignty over the course of events.
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God’s will is the cause of all things, every event that happen or will happen in the universe.
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Nothing that is outside of God’s creating, sustaining, and governing will.
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History is not just what He sees will be, but is what He causes to be , especially in every aspect of the redemptive process.
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God bless
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Dlee
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Consider: Satan/sin is the chosen god of this world because man continues to choose to sin. God is still and always will be sovereign.
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Mary888
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In a way yes. The same way a child is more powerful than his loving parents when the child does what he wants despite what the parents teach him. Adam had the power of freedom as did Eve. And we have it too. The world is pretty much our making. And many of us love it because it’s so human and we venerate it like a god, like an idol.
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MNathaniel
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I think you’ve just misunderstood the difference between God (capital ‘G’, the Creator of all creation; the non-contingent source of contingent existence; the great ‘I AM’), and the literary phrase ‘god of this world’ (lowercase ‘g’, which is not referring to the creator at all, but rather to a mere created being: specifically the fallen angel, Satan, who tempted humanity with lies, and insofar as we followed his lies, he ‘rules’ us with lies, and to the degree that he ‘rules’ us, we treat him (unjustly) as if he were a ‘god’).
Again, it’s just a literary flourish. For your sake, don’t get lost down a rabbit hole on a misunderstood literary flourish!
Your second question should probably be a second thread. (The question of why the Creator ended up having to suffer to redeem His fallen creation.)
Again, it’s just a literary flourish. For your sake, don’t get lost down a rabbit hole on a misunderstood literary flourish!
Your second question should probably be a second thread. (The question of why the Creator ended up having to suffer to redeem His fallen creation.)
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Dan_Defender
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Because in this world we have free will. God does not force us to choose Him but allows us to choose Him freely.
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Latin
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I agree, we have free will and God does not force us to choose Him but allows us to choose Him freely.
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Libertarian free will:
The will is basically the concept that, metaphysically and morally, man is an autonomous being, one who operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces. According to the Pocket Dictionary of Apologetics & Philosophy of Religion (InterVarsity Press, 2002).
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Aided free will:
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;
Fallen man cannot redeem himself. (De fide.) – It is God’s responsibility to save ALL OF US.
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Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification. (De fide.) – It is God’s responsibility TO KEEP US SAVED by His grace of Final Perseverance.
CCC 2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance. – This is an INFALLIBLE protection of the salvation of every receiver, without it there is no salvation, (Infallible teachings of the Trent).
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For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide).
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There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide).
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Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it . But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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The Catholic dogma
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA The predestination of the elect.
ante prævisa merita
“Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment.”
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CCCS 1996-1998; This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.
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John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
Acts 13:48; … as many as had been appointed for eternal life believed. – Not even one former unjust, idolaters, drunkards, etc. said no to God’s salvation.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).
2022; The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
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QUESTION
When you Dan_Defender speaking about free will, do you mean a Libertarian free will or an Aided free will?
Thank you for your answer in advance.
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God bless
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fhansen
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He leaves man “in the hands of his own council”. We decide if God’s going to be the God of our world. We decide if we’re going to act justly, whether or not the Master appears to be gone away.
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Latin
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CCC 301 God does not abandon his creatures to themselves.
He not only gives them being and existence, but also, and at every moment, upholds and sustains them in being, utter dependence enables them to act and brings them to their final end .
Recognizing this with respect to the Creator is a source of wisdom and freedom, of joy and confidence.
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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions…
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De gratia Christi 25, 26: "For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it"
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: "It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good… . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, providing most effective powers to the will."
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Ibid. 6. 15: "If then your merits are God’s gifts, God does not crown your merits as your merits, but as His gifts."
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Ep. 154, 5. 16: "What then is the merit of man before grace by which merit he should receive grace? Since only grace makes every good merit of ours, and when God crowns our merits, He crowns nothing else but His own gifts."
St. Augustine is called, rightly, the Doctor of Grace, for his great work. Augustine showed very well our total dependence on God.
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MERIT
Council of Orange 529 AD
CANON 18. That grace is not preceded by merit. Recompense is due to good works if they are performed; but grace, to which we have no claim, precedes them, to enable them to be done.
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Divine reward for the practice of virtue.
"The reward given for good works is not won by reason of actions which precede grace, but GRACE, which is unmerited, PRECEDES actions in order that ENABLE them to be done."
(Council of Orange 529 AD, Denzinger 388).
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God bless
He not only gives them being and existence, but also, and at every moment, upholds and sustains them in being, utter dependence enables them to act and brings them to their final end .
Recognizing this with respect to the Creator is a source of wisdom and freedom, of joy and confidence.
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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions…
St. Augustine on Grace and Predestination
I. (1) On human interaction with grace: Every good work, even good will, is the work of God..
De gratia Christi 25, 26: "For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it"
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: "It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good… . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, providing most effective powers to the will."
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Ibid. 6. 15: "If then your merits are God’s gifts, God does not crown your merits as your merits, but as His gifts."
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Ep. 154, 5. 16: "What then is the merit of man before grace by which merit he should receive grace? Since only grace makes every good merit of ours, and when God crowns our merits, He crowns nothing else but His own gifts."
St. Augustine is called, rightly, the Doctor of Grace, for his great work. Augustine showed very well our total dependence on God.
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MERIT
Council of Orange 529 AD
CANON 18. That grace is not preceded by merit. Recompense is due to good works if they are performed; but grace, to which we have no claim, precedes them, to enable them to be done.
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Divine reward for the practice of virtue.
"The reward given for good works is not won by reason of actions which precede grace, but GRACE, which is unmerited, PRECEDES actions in order that ENABLE them to be done."
(Council of Orange 529 AD, Denzinger 388).
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God bless
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fhansen
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Of course, while grace is absolutely essential, such that God won’t abandon man and desires none to perish, the above teachings must nonetheless be understood in light of Church teachings on the role off man’s will, and the possibility of man abandoning God:
MAN’S FREEDOM
1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26
Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.27
I. FREEDOM AND RESPONSIBILITY
1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.
1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil , and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.
1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.
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db90
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I guess another way to look at this besides liberalism or stealing is that there is a will at all - meaning somebody died and left a will. Then why would God have death - disobedience? Labor, Age and capacity and restrictions of nature/earth alone? At one point if is the will itself and what it implies an act of Mercy or not? A curiosity of disease or suffering? Redemption of souls alone? Maybe an argument of infinity without. Salve Regina.
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Latin
Guest
THOMISM
Thomism is the philosophical school that arose as a legacy of the work and thought of Thomas Aquinas (1225–1274), philosopher, theologian, and Doctor of the Church and since taught and maintained by his followers, esp in the Dominican order.
Thomism teaches aided free will.
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AIDED FREE WILL
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;
There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide).
308 … God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."171
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it
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MOLINISM
Molinism named after 16th-century Spanish Jesuit theologian Luis de Molina, is a view about the providence of God in light of human free will.
Molinism teaches Libertarian free will.
A Molinist is an autonomous being, one who operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces.
As they have Libertarian free will, by their impulse they reject God’s graces or cooperate with God’s graces, God has no control over their Libertarian free will.
By their impulse, they choose Heaven or Hell, practically God has zero control over them.
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PARAGRAPHS OF CATECHISM WHICH BUILT ON MOLINISM:
For example:
1731 … By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude. – 1732, 1861, etc.
Of course 1731, etc., speaking Libertarian free will when a Molinist by impulse choose to reject God’s grace or by impulse choose to cooperate with it.
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WE ARE BOTH THOMISTS AND MOLINISTS ARE GOD’S BUILDERS
307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, CAUSES in order to complete the work of creation.
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Molinists has Libertarian free wills, as the results they are the kind of a builders of God whom God CANNOT CONTROL/ CANNOT CAUSES them, because by their impulse they choose to work on to complete God’s creation, or by their impulse they choose to do anything else they like.
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It makes no difference how we cut it, instead of the graces of God Molinists are under the control of their impulse, because they are always choosing by their impulse to cooperate or to reject to cooperate with God’s graces.
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Some paragraphs of the Catechism built on Thomism and some built on Molinism.
The paragraphs built on Thomism and the paragraphs built on Molinism many of these paragraphs vigorously oppose each other, like Thomism and Molinism vigorously oppose each other.
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It is useless to contradict a Thomist’s paragraph of the CCC with a Molinist’s paragraph of the CCC, the two like two different religion.
Thomism teaches Aided free will and Molinism teaches Libertarian free will.
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In Thomism God decides, a Thomist is under God’s rules, destiny is in God.
In Molinism man decides, a Molinist is under his own rules, destiny is in man.
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God bless
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Markyman
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Free will. I think and could be wrong. But it’s a big universe. Maybe multiple and god is perfect. He could make everything perfect and he did that bf the Big Bang and everything. His answer is free will. That’s our universe. In other universe god may and this is not blasphemy but just thinking things may be different. Don’t know. We take our religion from three things. The Bible. Tradition and the church. And … there is a lot we do t know and it’s called faith and god can do what he wants
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db90
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Since we are supposed to be like little children to get to heaven I’d imagine Thomism would be more childlike…
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