Why is the Tridentine Mass popular?

[AmyS]

Just my :twocents: I think the popularity is wonderful. I have never been to a Tridentine Mass although I would love to. The closest one is at least 30 miles away from where I live. I only know Norvus Ordo (age 31)… I think sometimes things have to change in order for the old way to be appreciated. And, that is what I think is happening now. I have spoke to some people who left the church because of Vatacin I ways and vice versa.

Personally, I have a wonderful parish (it is Norvus Ordo), with many devout Catholics. Our focus is on the Eucharist, which is where it is supposed to be. I don’t fault anyone for their preferances in mass, I don’t understand that whole my way is better thing… Although, on the other hand, I would really love to see things go back to more traditional ways (progressive is not for me).

 

[robertaf]

Fast_ed75:

I am 28 and have begun attending the Tridentine Mass- nothing against the NO per se- but it is very difficult in the to find a parish (especially in the Belleville Diocese where i use to live_ that does not have;

1. Risen Christ on a cross in the sanctuary.
2. Altar servettes in flip-flops
3. Lay testimonial homilies
4. Eucharistic Ministresses sticking their hands in the tabernacle to put consecrated hosts in a candy dish.
5. Precious blood distributed in glass water goblets.

This does not even address the worst I have seen like wiccan dancing, EEMC’s concelebrating Mass, no kneeling, and invalid matter.

Uh… Christ has died, CHRIST HAS RISEN, Christ will come again. All one Jesus. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. I don’t get your point.

Altar servers in flip flops? What do you think Jesus wore at the Last Supper, or the Apostles. You mean shoes now make the Catholic?

Lay testimonial homilies. Do you remember when Jesus was just a boy, maybe 12 years old. Certainly a lay person. He was teaching in the Synagogue. This was before He was driven out into the desert by the Holy Spirit and long before His public ministry. You think this is new? Better read your Church history.

A candy dish? What are you talking about? Have you ever been a Eucharistic Minister? Do you understand the awe and wonder of sharing Jesus? A candy dish??? Where does that come from.

We are told that we cannot use glass water goblets during Mass. I doubt that anyone does. However, what do you think Jesus and the Apostles shared at the Last Supper? Do you honestly believe that even the finest and purest gold is fine enough for HIS PRECIOUS BLOOD? Nothing on this earth is fine enough. But then, didn’t He humble Himself and become one of us?

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

As a Post-Vatican II person I can say that I “get more out” of the Traditional Mass than the Novus Ordo.

This is hardly a convincing endorsement. Sounds a lot like Modernism, actually . . .

 

[MrS]

robertaf:

Uh… Christ has died, CHRIST HAS RISEN, Christ will come again. All one Jesus. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. I don’t get your point.

Altar servers in flip flops? What do you think Jesus wore at the Last Supper, or the Apostles. You mean shoes now make the Catholic?

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***They also let their hair grow and walked everywhere they went… ***

Lay testimonial homilies. Do you remember when Jesus was just a boy, maybe 12 years old. Certainly a lay person. He was teaching in the Synagogue. This was before He was driven out into the desert by the Holy Spirit and long before His public ministry. You think this is new? Better read your Church history.

Jesus was always the Christ, even at 12. Gospel readings and the homily are for the clerical, not the layity (at any age)

A candy dish? What are you talking about? Have you ever been a Eucharistic Minister? Do you understand the awe and wonder of sharing Jesus? A candy dish??? Where does that come from.

Eucharist Ministers are the ordained. The Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist are, in reality, an abuse begun without authority after Vat II. While now permitted by some Bishops, they are still wrong in most all cases. Hence the word “Extraordinary” which means only in situations where the number of communicates is excessive for the ordained to distribute communion.

We are told that we cannot use glass water goblets during Mass. I doubt that anyone does. However, what do you think Jesus and the Apostles shared at the Last Supper? Do you honestly believe that even the finest and purest gold is fine enough for HIS PRECIOUS BLOOD? Nothing on this earth is fine enough. But then, didn’t He humble Himself and become one of us?

Why do you think the Church expects the use of only the finest material (gold). The Last Supper surely saw the use of the best available - maybe even wood. The Ark, which held the word of God in the form of the tablets was Gold also.

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Far be it for YOU to think that God thinks like you think.

 

[oat_soda]

Well the 2 readings before the Gospel are an innovation in the Latin Rite. The readings choosen for Sundays and Holydays at the TTLM are over 1500 years old,while the New Mass Readings are only as old as the Mass. Also the 3year system of readings is a break with Catholic Tradition. The NO Mass was the first one to do this.

there are a lot of innovations in the latin rite mass, the whole thing is an innovation, it didn’t come pre-packaged by the apostles. it organically grew into its present form over hundreds of years. the question is, what is essential to the mass, and what can be changed. the church has the authority to introduce something into the liturgy for the benefit of the people. i think 3 readings on a 3 year system samples a greater portion of the bible. now i agree they should have retained as much as possible the old order of readings, but i don’t see this as a serious issue.

my big concerns are those changes that are not found in the SC of VII. like: **mass facing people **(clearly an error), 100% vernacular mass, removal of altar rail, communion in hand, extraordinary ministers of holy communion, terrible folksy worship/praise protestant music, and ugly churches. i don’t see three readings as being the issue.

 

[Podo2004]

OrthoCath:

MrS,

As a Post-Vatican II person I can say that I “get more out” of the Traditional Mass than the Novus Ordo. In fact, I will only go to an Novus Ordo if I absolutely have to even then I pray before the Mass that I will not be infected with the “spirit of Vatican II” during the Mass.

You pray before mass to not get infected with the spirit of vatican II? geez… If it’s an infection, i’ve had it for my whole life and like it better than the flu . I get more out of the NO. mass as i can understand it.
Podo

 

[Podo2004]

MrS:

Also, you might read Timebombs of Vatican II to see how protestant the Catholic Church has become with changes in the liturgy, and abusive envolvement of the laity who want to become more clerical.

In the “old days” the faithful followed along with detailed missals and knew what the priest was saying (softly). It was true “active participation in the Mass” and so unlike the entertainment factor that appeals to many today.

It hasn’t become protestant like, it’s still catholic. So that means that you had to translate the whole mass? wow… not my kind of mass
You participate more in the NO. ordo according to what you said which was just following the missal (translating as you go on). Didn’t you do anything else? Besides just sitting and observing the mass?

And what entertainment factor? Name some… i don’t see any entertainment factors… just stuff that makes you feel joyful afttr why shouldn’t you feel joyful? We are with Jesus( we are the church) and we are here to serve him(I don’t know maybe masses are different in canada then in the U.S but here they certainly joyful)
Podo

 

[kmktexas]

Podo,

Have you ever been to a Tridentine Mass? Especially one offered under the Indult?

Truthfully, the current TLM experience is a little skewed. Virtually everyone there is there because of a deep reverence for the Mass and the traditions it represents. The pre-Vatican II Mass probably had as many bored pew warmers as the NO Mass does today.

I came in at the tail end before the big change. Most of my early memories of the Mass are actually of the Missal of 1965, which isn’t offered licitly today. But it wasn’t a huge departure from the TLM. Still had most of the prayers in Latin, priest faced East, prayers at the foot of the altar, only one Eucharistic Prayer etc.

Most people do not translate as they go along. They either read the prayers in English while the Priest prays them in Latin, or they read/listen to the Latin. It isn’t really as important to understand word-for-word. It is the sacrafice that we participate in rather than the prayers. Most people know the meaning of the prayers that are said by the people.

At least for the few decades before Vatican II the readings were done in English (after the Latin was read) and the homily was of course in English (or whatever vernacular was appropriate). Most of the songs that I have experienced have been in English too, unless there is a choir.

Most of the more modern Churches rely heavily on an entertainment factor. They worry that the songs might be repetitious or that the homily might be a few minutes too long. They want a lot of people to have roles, which is very different from participation.

I am lucky to have a very reverent traditional priest at our parish. It is the only one in a 20 mile radius without serious abuses. He even has us use the Latin prayers, although not as often as I’d like.

Personally, I like the 3 year cycle of readings and I like that more of the prayers are said audibly in the NO. So I can’t claim to be a Tridentine purist.

 

[Iohannes]

The reason why I prefer the Old Mass is because it represents the Catholic faith better.

One of the biggest problems I have with the Novus Ordo is the moving of the Mysterium Fidei. Although it does not invalidate the Mass, the movement of the Mysterium Fidei was impious.

 

[Iohannes]

What is participation in Mass?

There are all sorts of misconception what participation is.

Participation is when a person is in union with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, it is as simple as that. Full participation does not require clapping, saying the responses, singing alone. It requires one to be fully united with the Sacrifice of Calvary!

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

While we’re on the subject, I have never seen a thread on the “conspiracy theories” as to how the changes in the Mass came about. Do any of you know of these things?

Does the name “Bugnini” mean anything to you? Was this discussed, and I missed it?

How about the name “Gelineau”?



Anna

 

[katolik]

oat soda:

there are a lot of innovations in the latin rite mass, the whole thing is an innovation, it didn’t come pre-packaged by the apostles. it organically grew into its present form over hundreds of years. the question is, what is essential to the mass, and what can be changed. the church has the authority to introduce something into the liturgy for the benefit of the people. i think 3 readings on a 3 year system samples a greater portion of the bible. now i agree they should have retained as much as possible the old order of readings, but i don’t see this as a serious issue.

my big concerns are those changes that are not found in the SC of VII. like: **mass facing people **(clearly an error), 100% vernacular mass, removal of altar rail, communion in hand, extraordinary ministers of holy communion, terrible folksy worship/praise protestant music, and ugly churches. i don’t see three readings as being the issue.

Well your concerns are big, truly they are but the Novus Ordo Mass is a stark departure from the Traditions of the Roman Rite, even if it is said ad orientem and in Latin. Like the 4 “EUcharistic prayers” instead of the formerly universal Roman Canon[all ROman Latin rites used it!],the “Mystrey of Faith” acclamation by the laity, and the 2 readings before the Gospel.

 

[Deacon2006]

I have been at mass conducted by Paul VI and John Paull II and I can tell you that the current rite fills my heart when done right. There is no turning the clock back especaily as more and more catholics such as myself have no recollection of the tridentine mass. It is not the smell of incense and fiddle back vestments that make a faithful mass it is a faithful priest who follows the rubrics however they are set out by our pope.

God Bless

 

[katolik]

Deacon2006:

I have been at mass conducted by Paul VI and John Paull II and I can tell you that the current rite fills my heart when done right. There is no turning the clock back especaily as more and more catholics such as myself have no recollection of the tridentine mass. It is not the smell of incense and fiddle back vestments that make a faithful mass it is a faithful priest who follows the rubrics however they are set out by our pope.

God Bless

A return to only the Traditional Latin Mass would not be a step back in time. It would be like going from midnight to noon! Anyways, deacon, if you went to a Traditional chapel[fssp.sspx,or other] you would see that the majority of persons there are under 40 or post vatican II babies. Deacon I have no rememberance of “preVatican II times” because I was born after it. Anyways, the TLM is not just a choice, it is the only choice for Mass.

 

[Deacon2006]

katolik:

A return to only the Traditional Latin Mass would not be a step back in time. It would be like going from midnight to noon! Anyways, deacon, if you went to a Traditional chapel[fssp.sspx,or other] you would see that the majority of persons there are under 40 or post vatican II babies. Deacon I have no rememberance of “preVatican II times” because I was born after it. Anyways, the TLM is not just a choice, it is the only choice for Mass.

It a historical novelty because the pope does not use it when he says mass. Fidelity to papa always for he can never err in teaching us about the mass.

Avoid all schismatic movements for you have no assurance of what they say is true.

God Bless

 

[katolik]

Deacon2006:

It a historical novelty because the pope does not use it when he says mass. Fidelity to papa always for he can never err in teaching us about the mass.

Avoid all schismatic movements for you have no assurance of what they say is true.

God Bless

The Pope hasn’t said an Armenian Rite Mass to my knowldege. Does that mean it is a novelty? Or what about the Lyonese rite? Or the Maronite rite? Ambrosian rite? Braga use? Are they all wrong because the Pope doesn’t say them?

Also major news companies have reported that the Pope uses the TLM for some of his private Masses in the Vatican and at Castel Gandolfo.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Deacon2006:

It is not the smell of incense and fiddle back vestments that make a faithful mass it is a faithful priest who follows the rubrics however they are set out by our pope.

God Bless

Amen! That said, I think the TLM/Indult should be liberally permitted by our Bishops, as long as the participants don’t disparge the current Mass (I know Novus Ordo isn’ t the correct term, what is?). I’m just tired of the “I’m holier-than-thou-and-more-Catholic-than-the-pope” attitudes sometimes displayed by TLM/Indult devotees towards those of us who actually love the Mass as it is currently celebrated. I never knew any other, I’ve seen errors in it, but they were corrected. I’ve never seen muleheaded abuse, personally. I know it exists, but only because I’ve read about it on CA.

 

[bear06]

Anna Elizabeth:

While we’re on the subject, I have never seen a thread on the “conspiracy theories” as to how the changes in the Mass came about. Do any of you know of these things?

Does the name “Bugnini” mean anything to you? Was this discussed, and I missed it?

How about the name “Gelineau”?



Anna

This is a good tape series on this topic from someone who was there. saintjoe.com/p/prod_desc.pl?id=388

 

[katolik]

JKirkLVNV:

Amen! That said, I think the TLM/Indult should be liberally permitted by our Bishops, as long as the participants don’t disparge the current Mass (I know Novus Ordo isn’ t the correct term, what is?). I’m just tired of the “I’m holier-than-thou-and-more-Catholic-than-the-pope” attitudes sometimes displayed by TLM/Indult devotees towards those of us who actually love the Mass as it is currently celebrated. I never knew any other, I’ve seen errors in it, but they were corrected. I’ve never seen muleheaded abuse, personally. I know it exists, but only because I’ve read about it on CA.

Give me an example of “holier than thou” and more “Catholic than the Pope”.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

katolik:

Give me an example of “holier than thou” and more “Catholic than the Pope”.

Go to the thread “Has the new GRIM helped?” Check out the post by Agamemnon. Sorry, have no idea how to link you. Also, perhaps you could explain this:

Anyways, the TLM is not just a choice, it is the only choice for Mass.

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God bless you.