Why is the US Catholic church so obsessed with the gay issue?

[1990Domer]

My thoughts are: An hour in Church is not enough for some to realize they are not actually thinking for themselves but accepting what is being spoon fed to them by the media 24/7. The second thing is we all must repeat the truth daily to counteract the falsehoods being spread, including here.

Al

Amen!

 

[1990Domer]

edwest, Tantum ergo and estesbob, Thank you and I do want to express my thanks to you for the job that you do in expressing and defending the faith on these boards!

God bless you and keep you always in His love!

I think I owe my deep thanks to you three as well. God bless you for being faithful to the teachings of RCC.

 

[faustinamary]

Thank you all as well for being faithful!
Has anyone read “Swallowed by Satan: How Our Lord Jesus Christ Saved Me from Pornography, Homosexuality, and the Occult?” by Sciambra, Joseph C.

 

[lileli]

God bless your nephew.

 

[estesbob]

Excellent analysis of this issue
catholicvote.org/why-am-i-such-a-jerk-to-gay-people/

 

[edwest2]

Excellent analysis of this issue
catholicvote.org/why-am-i-such-a-jerk-to-gay-people/

Yes, I too long for situations where knowledgeable people, with real names, sit across from each other and present their information in a civil, well-behaved manner. Being informed matters. Just because I disagree with any person on any issue does not mean I am accusing all persons in any category of the same thing. However, the truth must be told and put to the test so that others may learn and profit from it - for the good of all.

Ed

 

[Thorolfr]

Excellent analysis of this issue
catholicvote.org/why-am-i-such-a-jerk-to-gay-people/

Deacon Jim Russell often does not know what he’s talking about. In the above article he had a link to another one in which he said, “Not everyone who has SSA adequately understands SSA. And this includes some (I’m inclined to think many) Catholics with SSA who are seeking to live chaste lives through continence.” I’ve read some of what Russell’s written before, and it’s laughable that he should pretend to understand SSA/homosexuality better than many people who have SSA including the two he’s criticizing, Eve Tushnet and Joseph Prever.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Thank you all as well for being faithful!
Has anyone read “Swallowed by Satan: How Our Lord Jesus Christ Saved Me from Pornography, Homosexuality, and the Occult?” by Sciambra, Joseph C.

patheos.com/blogs/catholicauthenticity/2015/08/sadomasochism-satan-and-same-sex-attraction/
Melinda Selmys talking about related stuff

Excellent analysis of this issue
catholicvote.org/why-am-i-such-a-jerk-to-gay-people/

patheos.com/blogs/catholicauthenticity/2015/08/why-were-all-such-jerks-to-deacon-jim/

Melinda Selmys carving his article up.

 

[estesbob]

patheos.com/blogs/catholicauthenticity/2015/08/sadomasochism-satan-and-same-sex-attraction/
Melinda Selmys talking about related stuff

patheos.com/blogs/catholicauthenticity/2015/08/why-were-all-such-jerks-to-deacon-jim/

Melinda Selmys carving his article up.

The Deacons argument was much more compelling. In both of her articles it was the usual " we mustn’t criticize homosexuality lest homosexuals get bullied and/or commit suicide " argument that we see ad nauseam in our culture .

 

[at9009]

The Deacons argument was much more compelling. In both of her articles it was the usual " we mustn’t criticize homosexuality lest homosexuals get bullied and/or commit suicide " argument that we see ad nauseam in our culture .

I guess I had the opposite effect. The deacons articles I see as well-liked by non SSA individuals but often unhelpful and discouraging for actual people with ssa. Where I find Melinda’s article actually useful and encouraging in living a celibate and chaste life. But I’m sure different people benefit from different articles just like not everyone needs the same kind of pastoral support.

Her articles dealt more with pastoral approach while the deacons deals more with theological and intellectual debates. It’s kind of apples to oranges comparison.

I do not get where you get the idea that she is on any way saying we can’t express that homosexual acts are sins lest its drives people to suicde BUT bad pastoral care and lack of support from within the church has and does lead people away from the church.

It is not necessarily the truth that drives them away, but it’s the political and social culture where an ssa Catholic is constantly being treated as more broken then everyone else, viewed like some sort of Trojan Horse threat (both as a threat to tradition teaching and often views as a threat to children), and in addition the over idolizations or marriage and relationships (both secularly and in Christian American culture) hat drive people away. Those things hurt and can be discouraging. When you feel like the best you can hope for is being mariginally tolerated, you don’t feel encouraged to stick around. In all honesty, if it weren’t for the ability to receive the Eucharist every week (when I am able too), I probably would have stopped coming.

Also, a minor nit-picky side note, the somewhat dismissive attitude toward the alienation that ssa people feel which has driven some to suicide is not helpful and lacks compassion.

 

[kozlosap]

Deacon Jim Russell often does not know what he’s talking about. In the above article he had a link to another one in which he said, “Not everyone who has SSA adequately understands SSA. And this includes some (I’m inclined to think many) Catholics with SSA who are seeking to live chaste lives through continence.” I’ve read some of what Russell’s written before, and it’s laughable that he should pretend to understand SSA/homosexuality better than many people who have SSA including the two he’s criticizing, Eve Tushnet and Joseph Prever.

Thanks for pointing this out. As a straight person, I certainly have no inkling of what growing up as a LGBTQ person is like, especially before the end of the 20th Century. It’s so easy to stand on the outside and make up rationale as to the immorality of gay people when you have no idea what living in their shoes is like. If your reasons are based solely on your visceral reaction to the very thought of gay sex then you need to remember that some gay people might feel the same way when envisioning straight sexual acts. Life is too short to continue this sad situation of LGBTQ=IMMORAL FREAKS who chose their orientation and Straight=upstanding and normal. Someday, someday…

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Thanks for pointing this out. As a straight person, I certainly have no inkling of what growing up as a LGBTQ person is like, especially before the end of the 20th Century. It’s so easy to stand on the outside and make up rationale as to the immorality of gay people when you have no idea what living in their shoes is like. If your reasons are based solely on your visceral reaction to the very thought of gay sex then you need to remember that some gay people might feel the same way when envisioning straight sexual acts. Life is too short to continue this sad situation of LGBTQ=IMMORAL FREAKS who chose their orientation and Straight=upstanding and normal. Someday, someday…

The problem with this is that you are attempting both a strawman argument, and an ‘equivalency’ argument, neither of which is correct.

First, you’re attempting to argue that people ‘condemn’ gay sex based on visceral emotions only --as though if they only ‘reasoned’ they would not condemn them. Then you’re attempting to argue that it’s all because somebody straight just has the ‘ick factor’ about gays, but GAYS have the same ‘ick factor’ regarding straight sex. . .again, as though it’s all just about emotions and perceptions and if only they were educated like you and just ‘reasoned’, nobody would have an ick about anything because hey, if straights want to be straight they can, so then gays should be allowed to be gay because straights can be straight, etc. etc.

Then you’re using totally inflammatory language with the assumption that anyone who finds gay sexual actions morally wrong is labelled all people with the inclination (because many are chaste and continent) as 'IMMORAL FREAKS" (your own ‘all caps’ here) when nobody but yourself has made this assertion or equivalence (i.e., it’s a strawman).

I have sympathy who all of us who struggle with crosses, all different but each difficult enough.

But the answer to the problem is not to try to polarize people by working on ‘feelings’, or to emotionalize everything so that one can pound pound pound that the ONLY solution is to ‘de-criminalize the action’ so that it isn’t a sin at all. It’s for all of us to look each other in the eye and say, “You’re struggling with your cross? So am I. I will pray for you --please pray for me. God loves us and He will give us the strength not to abandon our crosses as too HARD, but to carry them through to the end so that we may be crucified with Him, die with Him, and rise with Him”. Because that’s what it’s all about.

 

[DCNBILL]

It’s for all of us to look each other in the eye and say, “You’re struggling with your cross? So am I. I will pray for you --please pray for me. God loves us and He will give us the strength not to abandon our crosses as too HARD, but to carry them through to the end so that we may be crucified with Him, die with Him, and rise with Him”. Because that’s what it’s all about.

Amen.

 

[kozlosap]

The problem with this is that you are attempting both a strawman argument, and an ‘equivalency’ argument, neither of which is correct.

First, you’re attempting to argue that people ‘condemn’ gay sex based on visceral emotions only --as though if they only ‘reasoned’ they would not condemn them. Then you’re attempting to argue that it’s all because somebody straight just has the ‘ick factor’ about gays, but GAYS have the same ‘ick factor’ regarding straight sex. . .again, as though it’s all just about emotions and perceptions and if only they were educated like you and just ‘reasoned’, nobody would have an ick about anything because hey, if straights want to be straight they can, so then gays should be allowed to be gay because straights can be straight, etc. etc.

Then you’re using totally inflammatory language with the assumption that anyone who finds gay sexual actions morally wrong is labelled all people with the inclination (because many are chaste and continent) as 'IMMORAL FREAKS" (your own ‘all caps’ here) when nobody but yourself has made this assertion or equivalence (i.e., it’s a strawman).

I have sympathy who all of us who struggle with crosses, all different but each difficult enough.

But the answer to the problem is not to try to polarize people by working on ‘feelings’, or to emotionalize everything so that one can pound pound pound that the ONLY solution is to ‘de-criminalize the action’ so that it isn’t a sin at all. It’s for all of us to look each other in the eye and say, “You’re struggling with your cross? So am I. I will pray for you --please pray for me. God loves us and He will give us the strength not to abandon our crosses as too HARD, but to carry them through to the end so that we may be crucified with Him, die with Him, and rise with Him”. Because that’s what it’s all about.

Thank you, in all sincerity, for your analysis. I sometimes get so engrossed in what I’m trying to explain that both my writing and my logic end up strangling my point. I totally understand, that on these boards, I am in a very small minority who believe that being LGBTQ is as morally acceptable as being born straight. I think the likes of the Westboro Baptist group and the Family Research Council have actually done more to harm those who think being gay and having a committed relationship is evil than to help it. The citizens of the USA have always rooted for the underdog (the exception being NFL games!) and that is one of the reasons that marriage equality happened so quickly.

 

[estesbob]

Thanks for pointing this out. As a straight person, I certainly have no inkling of what growing up as a LGBTQ person is like, especially before the end of the 20th Century. It’s so easy to stand on the outside and make up rationale as to the immorality of gay people when you have no idea what living in their shoes is like. If your reasons are based solely on your visceral reaction to the very thought of gay sex then you need to remember that some gay people might feel the same way when envisioning straight sexual acts. Life is too short to continue this sad situation of LGBTQ=IMMORAL FREAKS who chose their orientation and Straight=upstanding and normal. Someday, someday…

I have no idea what it is like to struggle with all sorts of unwelcome attractions. That does not mean that I have to accept giving in to those attractions is not a sin.

I personally suffer from alcoholism. I don’t pretend to understand the physiology of alcoholism as much as those Doctors and Scientists who have studied it do-I just know I can’t drink ,much as I would like to. It is very hard for anyone who is not an alcoholic to understand why I still, after 30 years, desire to do something that is totally destructive to me. But that doesn’t mean I can get drunk and not have it be a sin.

 

[1990Domer]

I guess I had the opposite effect. The deacons articles I see as well-liked by non SSA individuals but often unhelpful and discouraging for actual people with ssa. Where I find Melinda’s article actually useful and encouraging in living a celibate and chaste life. But I’m sure different people benefit from different articles just like not everyone needs the same kind of pastoral support.

Her articles dealt more with pastoral approach while the deacons deals more with theological and intellectual debates. It’s kind of apples to oranges comparison.

I do not get where you get the idea that she is on any way saying we can’t express that homosexual acts are sins lest its drives people to suicde BUT bad pastoral care and lack of support from within the church has and does lead people away from the church.

It is not necessarily the truth that drives them away, but it’s the political and social culture where an ssa Catholic is constantly being treated as more broken then everyone else, viewed like some sort of Trojan Horse threat (both as a threat to tradition teaching and often views as a threat to children), and in addition the over idolizations or marriage and relationships (both secularly and in Christian American culture) hat drive people away. Those things hurt and can be discouraging. When you feel like the best you can hope for is being mariginally tolerated, you don’t feel encouraged to stick around. In all honesty, if it weren’t for the ability to receive the Eucharist every week (when I am able too), I probably would have stopped coming.

Also, a minor nit-picky side note, the somewhat dismissive attitude toward the alienation that ssa people feel which has driven some to suicide is not helpful and lacks compassion.

Respectfully submitted, children with visible and invisible disabilities are prone to the same issues and thoughts of suicide. There needs to be more compassion on ALL fronts!

 

[faustinamary]

Thanks for pointing this out. As a straight person, I certainly have no inkling of what growing up as a LGBTQ person is like, especially before the end of the 20th Century. It’s so easy to stand on the outside and make up rationale as to the immorality of gay people when you have no idea what living in their shoes is like. If your reasons are based solely on your visceral reaction to the very thought of gay sex then you need to remember that some gay people might feel the same way when envisioning straight sexual acts. Life is too short to continue this sad situation of LGBTQ=IMMORAL FREAKS who chose their orientation and Straight=upstanding and normal. Someday, someday…

One reason why straight people are straight is because they DO have a visceral reaction to the thought of gay sex. When same-sex attracted people attain the same visceral disgust to homosexual sex and visceral and emotional attraction to heterosexual sex, they will become “straight” too. Straight people can be made gay and should work to create situations where no one is forced into that, i.e. childhood sexual abuse/prison rape (just a few of the causes) not to just teach homosexuals to cope with the oppression and have others tolerate/normalize the oppressive situations. In that previously mentioned book (How Our Lord Jesus Christ Saved Me From Homosexuality, Pornography, and the Occult by Sciambra), Sciambra (male) progressed from female prostitutes to homosexual sex/porn. Its just like oxytocin hormone in humans. We’ve all heard that it goes off during sex, and thus increases bonding with your partners.

Scientists are now able to change preference for male rats simply by adding oxytocin hormone.

The basis for homosexual behavior has frequently—and often hotly—been debated. Is it nature? Nurture? A combination of both? Researchers from the Universidad Veracruzana, Mexico, have thrown their hat into the ring. They have been able to show that conditioned homosexual preference in male rats can be induced by oxytocin and the psychoactive drug qu(name removed by moderator)irole.

The drug qu(name removed by moderator)irole is known to have the same effect on the brain as the neurotransmitter dopamine, which plays a major role in reward-motivated behavior. The process of having sex reinforces sexual preference between males and females, as the brain releases huge levels of dopamine during the act, giving the rat a happy hit and conditioning the animal’s preference for its mate. This is backed up almost immediately after ejaculation, when the male’s brain is flooded with the hormone oxytocin. This is thought to act to crystallize their social attachment to their mate by increasing their trust, reward, and inducing a state of calm.

iflscience.com/brain/sexual-preference-rats-influenced-oxytocin-and-dopamine

 

[kozlosap]

One reason why straight people are straight is because they DO have a visceral reaction to the thought of gay sex. When same-sex attracted people attain the same visceral disgust to homosexual sex and visceral and emotional attraction to heterosexual sex, they will become “straight” too. Straight people can be made gay and should work to create situations where no one is forced into that, i.e. childhood sexual abuse/prison rape (just a few of the causes) not to just teach homosexuals to cope with the oppression and have others tolerate/normalize the oppressive situations. In that previously mentioned book (How Our Lord Jesus Christ Saved Me From Homosexuality, Pornography, and the Occult by Sciambra), Sciambra (male) progressed from female prostitutes to homosexual sex/porn. Its just like oxytocin hormone in humans. We’ve all heard that it goes off during sex, and thus increases bonding with your partners.

Scientists are now able to change preference for male rats simply by adding oxytocin hormone. iflscience.com/brain/sexual-preference-rats-influenced-oxytocin-and-dopamine

Humans are straight because they were born that way, not because they find the thought of gay sex disgusting.

 

[estesbob]

Humans are straight because they were born that way, not because they find the thought of gay sex disgusting.

People aren’t born straight or homosexual. They are born man or woman. please let us not confuse sexual behavior with sexual attraction. We may not have much control over the latter but we most certainly have control over the former

 

[faustinamary]

Humans are straight because they were born that way, not because they find the thought of gay sex disgusting.

Some people are cured through reparative therapy, and many of these people were NOT born gay. That article that shows that scientists can now change rats sexual orientation mentions hormones also in humans, i.e. oxytocin and dopamine. All research shows that child sexual abuse leads to greater incidence of adult homosexuality. Dopamine is one of the major neurotransmitters that is affected by child sexual abuse, and there is no reason not to believe that the findings on the neurotransmitters in animals don’t also hold true in humans.

As for finding the thought of gay sex disgusting - if heterosexual attraction grows strong enough and same-sex attraction becomes replaced by disgust, a person becomes “straight”.