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estesbob
Guest
So why would the Holy Spirit be telling us something different than he has told us the last 2,000 years? Is morality determined by majority opinion?
Why is the US Catholic church so obsessed with the gay issue?
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kozlosap
Guest
Anthrogirl- I have tried for a few years to articulate what you so brilliantly did in one paragraph! I always based my arguments on developing a well formed conscience, your explanation is much more succient. Thank you again.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Well, if people are teaching incorrect, incomplete, poorly understood and poorly grasped Catholic teachings to ‘their’ students, it’s no wonder catechesis is so wretched in the last couple of decades. We poor parents and grandparents, trying to bring up our children/grandchildren in the True Faith (as the ‘first educators’ in our families’ lives) are being undercut by those whom we trusted to help us, not to hinder us.
“Much will be demanded of those to whom much is given”. I pray for those whose ‘well intentioned’ but distorted guidance is working with a Spirit --but not a Holy one.
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estesbob
Guest
So you agree with her that Catholics should reject teachings of the Church that conflict with the mores of the current culture?Anthrogirl- I have tried for a few years to articulate what you so brilliantly did in one paragraph! I always based my arguments on developing a well formed conscience, your explanation is much more succient. Thank you again.
As Far as Conscience goes:
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penWindow(‘cr/1785.htm’)
In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path,54 we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord’s Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and **guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church.55 **
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1990Domer
Guest
I agree with you Bob. In Catholic in name only organizations, they will use the argument that either God or the Holy Spirit helps them discern. The actual teachings are ignored or discarded.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Not only that, Bob:
What happens when you get Catholics flat out disagreeing with each other, but convinced the Holy Spirit is guiding them? (well you get Protestantism but you know what I’m saying here).
Here is anthrogirl absolutely 1000% convinced that the Holy Spirit is ‘shining through her’ and is telling her and ‘6 out of 10 Catholics’ to support gay marriage, when Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magesterium have, for 2000 years, taught that this is morally wrong.
Well, either The Holy Spirit taught something ‘wrong’ for 2000 years. . .
Or the Holy Spirit changed His mind.
Neither one really makes a case for Christianity, right? If you don’t have Christ, who is Absolute Truth, then you have that ‘great moral teacher’ who may or may not have died but whose ‘example’ we ‘remember’ and as we grow in our great egoblinding arrogance ever more sophisticated and ‘tolerant’, we either twist or ignore what we have as His teachings. . until all we have is the magnification and erection as a false god of what WE think and say as truth.
And we have well-intentioned but spiritually blind Catholics falling all over themselves to praise this as being ‘real’ and ‘true’ and “Church” (because the lord forbid we have to use articles nowadays!) and praised for 'thinking for themselves".
Did you ever notice that the only time people get praised for that is when they DISAGREE with Church teachings? You can spend your lifetime studying Christianity, use your reason, and if you say, “after years of exploration and study, I find that the Church’s interpretation on X is accurate”. . . you will NOT hear, "Oh how wonderful that you ‘thought for yourself’ even though that’s exactly what you DID! Oh no, you’ll hear, "you mindless sheep, BLINDLY accepting something ‘told’ to you’. . .
Thank goodness I have a very thick skin and the patience one grows with decades of parenthood, because while I might roll my eyes at the logical fails above, I still ‘love the thickheaded modernists’ as children of God.
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edwest2
Guest
My thoughts are: An hour in Church is not enough for some to realize they are not actually thinking for themselves but accepting what is being spoon fed to them by the media 24/7. The second thing is we all must repeat the truth daily to counteract the falsehoods being spread, including here.Not only that, Bob:
What happens when you get Catholics flat out disagreeing with each other, but convinced the Holy Spirit is guiding them? (well you get Protestantism but you know what I’m saying here).
Here is anthrogirl absolutely 1000% convinced that the Holy Spirit is ‘shining through her’ and is telling her and ‘6 out of 10 Catholics’ to support gay marriage, when Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magesterium have, for 2000 years, taught that this is morally wrong.
Well, either The Holy Spirit taught something ‘wrong’ for 2000 years. . .
Or the Holy Spirit changed His mind.
Neither one really makes a case for Christianity, right? If you don’t have Christ, who is Absolute Truth, then you have that ‘great moral teacher’ who may or may not have died but whose ‘example’ we ‘remember’ and as we grow in our great egoblinding arrogance ever more sophisticated and ‘tolerant’, we either twist or ignore what we have as His teachings. . until all we have is the magnification and erection as a false god of what WE think and say as truth.
And we have well-intentioned but spiritually blind Catholics falling all over themselves to praise this as being ‘real’ and ‘true’ and “Church” (because the lord forbid we have to use articles nowadays!) and praised for 'thinking for themselves".
Did you ever notice that the only time people get praised for that is when they DISAGREE with Church teachings? You can spend your lifetime studying Christianity, use your reason, and if you say, “after years of exploration and study, I find that the Church’s interpretation on X is accurate”. . . you will NOT hear, "Oh how wonderful that you ‘thought for yourself’ even though that’s exactly what you DID! Oh no, you’ll hear, "you mindless sheep, BLINDLY accepting something ‘told’ to you’. . .
Thank goodness I have a very thick skin and the patience one grows with decades of parenthood, because while I might roll my eyes at the logical fails above, I still ‘love the thickheaded modernists’ as children of God.
Al
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DCNBILL
Guest
edwest, Tantum ergo and estesbob, Thank you and I do want to express my thanks to you for the job that you do in expressing and defending the faith on these boards!
God bless you and keep you always in His love!
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edwest2
Guest
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Rau
Guest
You appear to have confused “love” with “sexual activity”. You understand marriage is not a prerequisite for love, and that marriage is a sexual relationship?
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kozlosap
Guest
No, what I believe it’s that personal experience must play a role in how one treats other humans, especially those who are considered disordered or somehow unworthy of having loving relationships that last a lifetime as we straight people do. I’m so tired of the constant bashing off so called “sodomites”. What is so strange is that since there are 95% straight humans and 5% LGBTQ people, it only guarentees that there are huge numbers of sodomites who are straight, yet, only one small group is continually picked on. When someone tries to tell me that my nephew will certainly go to hell because he is gay and has been in a monogamous relationship for seventeen years, it makes me wonder. He is a clinical professor of medicine at a top Med school, spends ten hours a week working with PTSD vets pro bono and summers working with Doctors without Boarders. Yep, what he does in the bedroom is totally who he is and how his life should be described.So you agree with her that Catholics should reject teachings of the Church that conflict with the mores of the current culture?
As Far as Conscience goes:
[1785](javascript
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Rau
Guest
Is a parent unable to love a son, one who desires sex with another man, without endorsing same sex sexual acts? Is one man unable to have love for another without engaging in sexual acts, even if those acts are desired? How is it that desire for something serves as its justification? And why do you make up this charge that anyone here has defined, or would want to define, your son (or any person) by “what he does in the bedroom”? Regrettably, it is the word “homosexual” that tends to do that (such can be the effect of labels) and for that reason, we would be better served by referring to a person who experiences SSA rather than by using the term homosexual so routinely.No, what I believe it’s that personal experience must play a role in how one treats other humans, especially those who are considered disordered or somehow unworthy of having loving relationships that last a lifetime as we straight people do. I’m so tired of the constant bashing off so called “sodomites”. What is so strange is that since there are 95% straight humans and 5% LGBTQ people, it only guarentees that there are huge numbers of sodomites who are straight, yet, only one small group is continually picked on. When someone tries to tell me that my nephew will certainly go to hell because he is gay and has been in a monogamous relationship for seventeen years, it makes me wonder. He is a clinical professor of medicine at a top Med school, spends ten hours a week working with PTSD vets pro bono and summers working with Doctors without Boarders. Yep, what he does in the bedroom is totally who he is and how his life should be described.
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estesbob
Guest
The church most certainly doesn’t teach he is going to go to hell . Everyone has a chance repent , everyone sins. However it is a bit strange that a Catholic would proclaim that the church has been teaching falsehoods for 2000 years. It is also strange that one would determine whether one is living a moral life on how good they are at their job or how long they have been committing the same sin with the same person. I will admit these are difficult issues- I know I struggle with my daughters homosexuality but I have faith that the Lord will lead her back to living a moral life. My job is to be there for her and help facilitate this when the time is rightNo, what I believe it’s that personal experience must play a role in how one treats other humans, especially those who are considered disordered or somehow unworthy of having loving relationships that last a lifetime as we straight people do. I’m so tired of the constant bashing off so called “sodomites”. What is so strange is that since there are 95% straight humans and 5% LGBTQ people, it only guarentees that there are huge numbers of sodomites who are straight, yet, only one small group is continually picked on. When someone tries to tell me that my nephew will certainly go to hell because he is gay and has been in a monogamous relationship for seventeen years, it makes me wonder. He is a clinical professor of medicine at a top Med school, spends ten hours a week working with PTSD vets pro bono and summers working with Doctors without Boarders. Yep, what he does in the bedroom is totally who he is and how his life should be described.
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Rau
Guest
That is an objective reaction, I agree. But I can well understand a parent - who typically wants nothing more than they want their children to be happy - to agonise over the situation, and to strive to find a way to convince themselves that, perhaps, just perhaps, their child’s actions are good.
Nevertheless, I could much better understand an argument that acknowledged the wrong acts, but believed the person has reduced culpability for them. But to shift to the other side of the debate entirely - to argue that, actually, it is good what they do - that I find harder to understand.
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edwest2
Guest
Thank you. A very timely and relevant article. Yes, so many of us are one Confession away from returning. In my view, the anti-life/anti-marriage revolution has resulted in too many settling for substitutes as opposed to striving for the real thing. I have sympathy for these people.
My friends, you have not made too many mistakes. That abortion, that divorce and even cohabitation. Some are wounded, in some cases, badly wounded, by the “freedom” the Revolution promised. Go to the Priest, ask God for healing, confess your sins. His infinite mercy is always there.
The pressure to ‘conform to this world’ will be there. In the 1960s, I can tell you it was easy to be Catholic. Going to Mass on Sunday and Holy Days of Obligation were a given. We respected much more. God was not yet the target of lawsuits.
That beautiful Nativity in front of City Hall? Unconstitutional!
That carved stone open Bible in a public building? Unconstitutional!
Those beautiful Editorials about the birth of Jesus? Gone.
Have hope, my friends, this will pass. God always left a faithful remnant after the Israelites did this or that wrong thing.
The Media is not God. It is not your friend regarding issues about normal human sexuality and normal family living. Know the truth. Meditate on it.
Ed
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InSearchofGrace
Guest
How wonderful to read the last several postings affirming our Catholic values and beliefs. It is not that the Church or the faithful is obsessed with gay “marriage” and homosexuality.
As this thread is coming to a close (that is, if or when the moderator notices the posts have exceeded the thousand mark), below is a Catholic blogger Leila Miller’s answer to the oft raised question, as asked by the OP,
“Why do Carholics talk about gay marriage so much?”
As this thread is coming to a close (that is, if or when the moderator notices the posts have exceeded the thousand mark), below is a Catholic blogger Leila Miller’s answer to the oft raised question, as asked by the OP,
“Why do Carholics talk about gay marriage so much?”
,
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edwest2
Guest
Wonderful. “Swimming against the tide” is always hard. The Spirit of Disobedience is among us - like a virus. And almost everywhere we turn, we see it or hear it. Do not faint or lose heart. Ask God for strength and guidance daily. He and His Church are the light of the world. Don’t hide your light under a bushel.
God bless,
Ed
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1990Domer
Guest
Organizations like New Ways Ministry, Dignity, Equally Blessed and Fortunate Families use this reasoning a lot. I know one of these organizations led some close family members down this path. Now I fear for their eternal salvation.Not only that, Bob:
What happens when you get Catholics flat out disagreeing with each other, but convinced the Holy Spirit is guiding them? (well you get Protestantism but you know what I’m saying here).
Here is anthrogirl absolutely 1000% convinced that the Holy Spirit is ‘shining through her’ and is telling her and ‘6 out of 10 Catholics’ to support gay marriage, when Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magesterium have, for 2000 years, taught that this is morally wrong.
Well, either The Holy Spirit taught something ‘wrong’ for 2000 years. . .
Or the Holy Spirit changed His mind.
Neither one really makes a case for Christianity, right? If you don’t have Christ, who is Absolute Truth, then you have that ‘great moral teacher’ who may or may not have died but whose ‘example’ we ‘remember’ and as we grow in our great egoblinding arrogance ever more sophisticated and ‘tolerant’, we either twist or ignore what we have as His teachings. . until all we have is the magnification and erection as a false god of what WE think and say as truth.
And we have well-intentioned but spiritually blind Catholics falling all over themselves to praise this as being ‘real’ and ‘true’ and “Church” (because the lord forbid we have to use articles nowadays!) and praised for 'thinking for themselves".
Did you ever notice that the only time people get praised for that is when they DISAGREE with Church teachings? You can spend your lifetime studying Christianity, use your reason, and if you say, “after years of exploration and study, I find that the Church’s interpretation on X is accurate”. . . you will NOT hear, "Oh how wonderful that you ‘thought for yourself’ even though that’s exactly what you DID! Oh no, you’ll hear, "you mindless sheep, BLINDLY accepting something ‘told’ to you’. . .
Thank goodness I have a very thick skin and the patience one grows with decades of parenthood, because while I might roll my eyes at the logical fails above, I still ‘love the thickheaded modernists’ as children of God.
- Status