Why is their lagging Interest in the OF?

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I wonder who conducted the survey?..and I wonder what motivations they may have to distort the statistics to support that reasoning…I’m just saying
ConstantineTG said:
A survey I once looked at showed that belief in the Real Presence is not tied down to the OF nor CITH but more of one’s own devotion to the faith. Unless you can offer a different proof.
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Dum_Spiro_Spero said:
I wonder who conducted the survey?..and I wonder what motivations they may have to distort the statistics to support that reasoning…I’m just saying
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I’ve been trying to look for the link

I wonder why you immediately assumed the statistics have been distorted just because it doesn’t agree with your beliefs.
 
Dum_Spiro_Spero said:
Newsflash…after the introduction of the “current” OF, belief in the True Presence diminished…I am not sure, but I think that only something like, less than 30% of all Catholics today believe in the True Presence…that dynamic shift in numbers coincides with the mass Exodus from The Church…if they no longer believe in the True Presence, what is their motivation to hang around??? And the True Presence is no longer believed because most priest today only teach the mass as a community meal and NOT a Sacrifice which it is.
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A lot of things happened in the same time frame, among which was a technological explosion that saw man land on the moon, to name one and of course an era of instant communications and huge scientific breakthroughs. Concurrency does not equal correlation and anyone trying to correlate the loss of a sense of the Real Presence to the OF Mass has his statistical work cut out for him. There is a general loss of a sense of mystery and the divine across the board in Western culture that isn’t limited to the Catholic Church but can also be found among mainstream Protestants and Judaism.

I can assure you everyone who regularly attends Mass at the Benedictine abbey I am affiliated with, believe in the Real Presence, and there are always folks in the Chapel of the Blessed Sacrament in adoration. The Mass is OF, but with Gregorian chant and is deeply reverent with incense, reverent silence after readings, the homily and communion, an overt display of respect for the Blessed Sacrament by the monks as the schola genuflects in presence of the Blessed Sacrament after consecration, Gregorian chant, and French plainchant, etc etc.

You may have a point to say that a loss of reverence may contribute to a loss of belief in the real presence.

But you can’t extend that to associate it with the OF Mass because reverence is most certainly possible in the OF Mass.

There are just too many cultural factors involved to associate the emptying of the pews with the OF Mass. The Anglicans for instance, have seen their pews empty just as fast if not faster, with a loss of vocations, in Canada (and this in spite of married and female clergy). Yet they have a very reverent traditional “mass” that is in fact darned close to our EF (the Book of Common Prayer) and a modern “mass” (Book of Alternative Services) that could be compared to our OF Mass. Their “EF” can in fact be very beautiful and they certainly have no shortage of traditional music of their own.

Yet in spite of their “EF” being very much a living and I would add widely available rite, it hasn’t stopped their pews from emptying. As a sidebar it will be interesting to see how the Anglican Use will impact on us when former Anglicans come to Rome.

The only Christian denominations seeing any kind of growth, from what I can see, are the Evangelical Protestant sects. Yet they have pretty much zero liturgy. They do however offer instant, black-and-white answers that seems to sit well with our culture of instant gratification: the get-out-of-jail free card of instant and perpetual salvation.
 
OraLabora said:
A lot of things happened in the same time frame, among which was a technological explosion that saw man land on the moon, to name one and of course an era of instant communications and huge scientific breakthroughs. Concurrency does not equal correlation and anyone trying to correlate the loss of a sense of the Real Presence to the OF Mass has his statistical work cut out for him. There is a general loss of a sense of mystery and the divine across the board in Western culture that isn’t limited to the Catholic Church but can also be found among mainstream Protestants and Judaism.

I can assure you everyone who regularly attends Mass at the Benedictine abbey I am affiliated with, believe in the Real Presence, and there are always folks in the Chapel of the Blessed Sacrament in adoration. The Mass is OF, but with Gregorian chant and is deeply reverent with incense, reverent silence after readings, the homily and communion, an overt display of respect for the Blessed Sacrament by the monks as the schola genuflects in presence of the Blessed Sacrament after consecration, Gregorian chant, and French plainchant, etc etc.

You may have a point to say that a loss of reverence may contribute to a loss of belief in the real presence.

But you can’t extend that to associate it with the OF Mass because reverence is most certainly possible in the OF Mass.

There are just too many cultural factors involved to associate the emptying of the pews with the OF Mass. The Anglicans for instance, have seen their pews empty just as fast if not faster, with a loss of vocations, in Canada (and this in spite of married and female clergy). Yet they have a very reverent traditional “mass” that is in fact darned close to our EF (the Book of Common Prayer) and a modern “mass” (Book of Alternative Services) that could be compared to our OF Mass. Their “EF” can in fact be very beautiful and they certainly have no shortage of traditional music of their own.

Yet in spite of their “EF” being very much a living and I would add widely available rite, it hasn’t stopped their pews from emptying. As a sidebar it will be interesting to see how the Anglican Use will impact on us when former Anglicans come to Rome.

The only Christian denominations seeing any kind of growth, from what I can see, are the Evangelical Protestant sects. Yet they have pretty much zero liturgy. They do however offer instant, black-and-white answers that seems to sit well with our culture of instant gratification: the get-out-of-jail free card of instant and perpetual salvation.
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Agreed. A lot of people lose interest in the Catholic faith because they seek a religion that tells them about a Jesus who will accept them even if they think abortion is an option, same-sex marriage is okay, using ABCs is fine, we can all just say sorry in the end and be forgiven, no questions asked.

They don’t want the ritualistic Church who has strict guidelines on morals. It not the OF’s fault at all.
 
If you can’t see the problem we face today and understand its roots…then pray for almighty God to enlighten you.
ConstantineTG said:
I’ve been trying to look for the link

I wonder why you immediately assumed the statistics have been distorted just because it doesn’t agree with your beliefs.
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Redratfish said:
My problem with this is that you aren’t thinking of the average teen (which is the future of any Church). Many teens these days think that mass should be “fun” (i use to be one of these). They will go to Catholic Church with their parents, but then go to their Protestant friends for a “more fun” church. Switching to the EF will cause teens to lose interest in Church completely. For many (or even sadly, most) teens even OF is boring. Its a fact, ask the average Catholic off the street, and they will tell you so.

If we toss in Latin again, make the priest face away from the congregation, and other things that accompany the EF mass, most Catholics will find that even more boring, the hard core Catholics will find it more reverent, but if you aren’t into the whole “latin is more holier than English”, feeling, it will seem more boring. Its common sense.

Don’t bother saying that since the EF is more reverent (which itself is up for debate), more people will join, and those who aren’t going now, will start. They won’t. As a teen myself, I know how todays teens think and want. They want to be entertained, not reverent.

While I agree that switching back to the EF MIGHT help, we WILL experience a lost generation. Teens (except for hard core Catholics as myself) WILL lose interest. If enough lose interest, and we don’t have enough second generation Catholics, then we will be lost.

Source-
Myself and countless discussions with my Catholic and “Catholic” friends.
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How about the parents take responsibility for instructing their kids instead of blaming it on the form of mass that they attend. In today’s world it is always not my fault.
 
Yet they find people there sympathetic to their problems…what they need is an admonishment for their behavior and beliefs…yet what they get is support and understanding. That is TOTALLY against the “works of mercy” we are supposed to, as Catholics, live by and perform in our day to day lives.
ConstantineTG said:
Agreed. A lot of people lose interest in the Catholic faith because they seek a religion that tells them about a Jesus who will accept them even if they think abortion is an option, same-sex marriage is okay, using ABCs is fine, we can all just say sorry in the end and be forgiven, no questions asked.

They don’t want the ritualistic Church who has strict guidelines on morals. It not the OF’s fault at all.
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As others pointed out, the problems in Europe, America and elsewhere is a lack of faith. If people truly believed in the Real Presence and that it was a mortal sin to miss Mass without valid reason and that said mortal sin could lead to damnation and accepted the teachings of the Church, then no one would miss Mass and everyone would be Catholic.

If tomorrow the Pope banned the celebration of the Novus Ordo and declared the TLM to be the new Ordinary Form, there might be a short-term increase in Mass attendance since newer/young Catholics and even some Non-Catholics might be intrigued by the apparent novelty of the TLM and its aesthetic beauty (esp. in High Masses/Solemn High Masses), but that would wear off quickly. People who are devout would continue going to Mass as they did and I think the lukewarm would go back to being lukewarm.
 
The damage is not irreversible…once it gets out that missing Mass is a mortal sin…that people must go to confession…that they can not contracept…they can’t support gay marriage and the other non-negotiables, etc then you will give people a reason to be a part of it…you will give them a reason to live the faith. It will change…I promise you that.
nsper7 said:
As others pointed out, the problems in Europe, America and elsewhere is a lack of faith. If people truly believed in the Real Presence and that it was a mortal sin to miss Mass without valid reason and that said mortal sin could lead to damnation and accepted the teachings of the Church, then no one would miss Mass and everyone would be Catholic.

If tomorrow the Pope banned the celebration of the Novus Ordo and declared the TLM to be the new Ordinary Form, there might be a short-term increase in Mass attendance since newer/young Catholics and even some Non-Catholics might be intrigued by the apparent novelty of the TLM and its aesthetic beauty (esp. in High Masses/Solemn High Masses), but that would wear off quickly. People who are devout would continue going to Mass as they did and I think the lukewarm would go back to being lukewarm.
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Robert_Burns said:
When I was in Rome last year I noticed so many Churches that were nearly empty for Mass. What has happened to Mass attendance? I see numerous posts on here asking if there is enough “demand” for the EF - but in my opinion - there seems to be a diminishing demand for the OF. Especially in Europe. Perhaps the need for more EF Masses is becoming more and more evident. Maybe the need is greater in Europe. But there is a need. Why wait until all is lost?

Pax
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Protestants are down, too. Just about every group is down, save Mormons, Athiests, and Pagans.
 
Every group except The Federal Government…LOL just kidding…I couldn’t help myself. They are the only ones that seem to be adding numbers in these desperate times
Aramis said:
Protestants are down, too. Just about every group is down, save Mormons, Athiests, and Pagans.
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Dum_Spiro_Spero said:
I wonder who conducted the survey?..and I wonder what motivations they may have to distort the statistics to support that reasoning…I’m just saying
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All these surveys could be a little skewed too since, unlike the time before Vatican II, most in attendance receive now (in the English OF anyway). It’s very likely that you will have more who believe in something other than the Real Presence or just don’t care, they will just follow their neighbors. Actually, now that I think about it, maybe those who don’t receive believe in the Real Presence and respect It more. What do you think?
 
Heck…I thought 99.9% of everyone at Sunday Mass at the local OF parish was ready for canonization; either that, or Father must spend 30 hours a week hearing confessions…but sadly the truth of the matter is that there are a bunch of sacriligeous Communions taking place. I agree completely with what you say…people just follow the leader and don’t want to show their neighbors that they might have fallen into sin. As for me…I would never risk it, even if it is the slightest chance I may not be in a State of Grace…regardless of what my neighbor or family member might think. I have a feeling you are cut from the same cloth
ProVobis said:
All these surveys could be a little skewed too since, unlike the time before Vatican II, most in attendance receive now (in the English OF anyway). It’s very likely that you will have more who believe in something other than the Real Presence or just don’t care, they will just follow their neighbors. Actually, now that I think about it, maybe those who don’t receive believe in the Real Presence and respect It more. What do you think?
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Dum_Spiro_Spero said:
Heck…I thought 99.9% of everyone at Sunday Mass at the local OF parish was ready for canonization; either that, or Father must spend 30 hours a week hearing confessions…but sadly the truth of the matter is that there are a bunch of sacriligeous Communions taking place. I agree completely with what you say…people just follow the leader and don’t want to show their neighbors that they might have fallen into sin. As for me…I would never risk it, even if it is the slightest chance I may not be in a State of Grace…regardless of what my neighbor or family member might think. I have a feeling you are cut from the same cloth
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It sounds like me. 🙂

It could be a cultural thing too. Spanish and Polish Masses are flourishing in the US and I know in the Polish communities, the confession lines are much longer and only half of those attending Mass receive. I’ve heard too that there are record numbers of seminarians in Poland now too.
 
Do this, Take OF, then take every other Divine Liturgy, even the Maronites who are severely latinized, and compare them.

It’s like a joke, the OF as NORMALLY CELEBRATED is Banal and virtually devoid of any of the real Glory of God present in Every other Liturgy of every Other Cathoplic Church. Come on, nobody sees this?
 
ProVobis said:
And Muslims. They’re buying out some of the churches too.
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But they are not a unified group; most groups are actually shrinking, but the number of groups seems to be explosively growing. (bad political pun intended…)

Seriously, the local mosque has been complaining about poor attendance, too. As has the synagogue, and the local buddhist temples, too.

The thing is, belief in God is up… but belief in organized religion is down.
 
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