Ask yourself this: Why does God want us to become more Christlike as we journey towards heaven? If you have an answer, then you also have an answer for 3 of your 4 questions above: What is it? Why is it there? Why do you go there? As for what bible verses prove its existence, the other responses have already answered. God bless.
That is not what the doctrine implies, but it is what you are incorrectly inferring. Purgatory is not a place where we work out our salvation. Purgatory is where we make expiation (restitution) for the sins we commited, and for which we have already been forgiven. In other words, purgatory is where the benefits of Christ’s once-for-all sacrifice may still be applied.
But the Bible does say things about purgatory, therefore, you must believe in it.
Are you going to offer any evidence to support your claim or are you just going to throw it out there and hope people accept it at face value? That may work with some, but I doubt anyone here who does not want to believe it anyway will buy it for a second. If you really read and analyze the facts you will see the utter fallacy of the quoted statement.
NonDenom, here’s an article written by a Protestant that helps explain Purgatory to non-Catholic Christians in a very charitable manner. He separates the doctrine from the abuses of the doctrine, and then argues that the doctrine is quite compatible with Wesleyan tradition and common Protestant teaching on sanctification. If you are a staunch Calvinist, then this article will not be helpful.
So you mean if I stole something, but then repented of that sin I still shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
Is *this * the best you’ve got!
Jam 1:14-15 distinguishes desire from sin, and beginning sin from mature sin which brings death. Sin which brings death to the soul is mortal. Sin which only wounds and disfigures is venial. Both are bad and evil.
If you die in a state of grace, but with unforgiven venial sins, or with forgiven mortal sins for which some reparation is still due, then you do not merit Hell, but you must “pay the last penny.” For nothing unclean shall enter Heaven. (Rev. 21:27.)
Hi
Then why do you link those verses to the doctrine of purgatory? The only ones who will go through purgatory will those who have repented, not those who haven’t.
YOU may not have said that, but what you did do was use scripture to prove your point and it backfired.
If there was no such thing as a mortal sin but only venial sins would Jesus still have died on the Cross? The answer is yes.Is *this * the best you’ve got!
To understand the doctrine of Purgatory, you must understand two fundamental distinctions: (1) between guilt and punishment; and (2) between moral and venial sins.
**A. Does God forgive guilt of sin and still require punishment? **
Yes - Just consider 2 Sam 12:13-14: God forgives King David’s sin, but still requires that he make reparation in the form of suffering. (Just like a man may forgive a teenager who breaks his window, but still require that he repair the damage.
B. Where does Scripture distinguish between mortal and venial sin?
1 Jn 5:16-17 proves degrees of sin, distinguishing between deadly sin, and sin that is not deadly
Jam 1:14-15 distinguishes desire from sin, and beginning sin from mature sin which brings death. Sin which brings death to the soul is mortal. Sin which only wounds and disfigures is venial. Both are bad and evil.
If you die in a state of grace, but with unforgiven venial sins, or with forgiven mortal sins for which some reparation is still due, then you do not merit Hell, but you must “pay the last penny.” For nothing unclean shall enter Heaven. (Rev. 21:27.)
C. Is Purgatory Scriptural? Yes.
Mt. 12:32 - [32] And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." - implies that some sins can be forgiven in the next world. Sin cannot be forgiven in Hell. There is no sin to be forgiven in Heaven. Therefore, any remission of sin in the next world must take place in some intermediate place. Catholics call this purgatory.
1 Cor. 3:15 - “[15] If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” - This cannot refer to eternal loss in Hell, because no one there can be saved. Nor can it refer to Heaven, for there no one suffers. It refers to a middle state where the soul temporarily suffers loss so that it may gain Heaven. This is essentially the definition of Purgatory.
1 Pet 3:18-20 - Christ speaks and preaches to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey. And in 1 Pet 4:6 - scripture speaks of the gospel being preached even to the dead. These passages speak of a prison for disobedient spirits from which they were saved. This is not Hell, because one cannot be saved from Hell, nor is it the “bosom of Abraham” because the spirits referenced in these passages are disobedient spirits. St. Peter is describing a temporary state for disobedient spirits who are eventually saved.
2 Macc 12:44-45 is a proof text in which the text explicitly shows that expiation is made for the sins of the dead. Even if you (as a “non-denom”) reject the canonicity of this book, you must acknowledge that it historically depicts the practices of the jews of 100 years before Christ - who then (as now) pray for their dead.
2 Tim 1:16-18 is another example of a former jew-turned-christian (St. Paul) who prays for his dead friend Onesiphorus.
There is plenty of scripture supporting the doctrine. It is you who choose to reject the logical and scriptural arguments for the doctrine because you perceive the doctrine to detract from the finished work of Christ. It does not. It shows how that finished work is applied. (Again, note the distinction between guilt and punishment.)
And as far as the “moneymaking” scheme goes, a stipend to a priest for saying a mass for a deceased person is $5.00, and the limit is one stipend per mass, and a priest is limited to the number of masses he can perform. So, from what you’re suggesting, this “money-making” scheme rakes in less than minimum wage, for about an hour a day at best. (So, in the immortal words of “Al Borland” - “I don’t think so, Tim.”)
When you talk about the mass in what way does that make you a better person? Does that keep you from commiting sins? I have watched the ETWN a number of times and heard people talk about how they are not able to overcome their sins. What I have read so far on this forum is mostly about rules and regulations. I haven’t read a whole lot of information dealing with sin. But that is OK… you will deal with it when you get to purgatory.You don’t seem to be able to grasp the thought that Jesus is our mediator with God. God looks at us through the eyes of Jesus. That is what is known as justification. Human beings are wicked. The Bible says a righteous man is like filthy rags. That is how much sin each of us has in our own lifes. If you go by what scripture says about how evil mankind is then plan on spending a few billion years in purgatory.Is *this * the best you’ve got!
To understand the doctrine of Purgatory, you must understand two fundamental distinctions: (1) between guilt and punishment; and (2) between moral and venial sins.
**A. Does God forgive guilt of sin and still require punishment? **
Yes - Just consider 2 Sam 12:13-14: God forgives King David’s sin, but still requires that he make reparation in the form of suffering. (Just like a man may forgive a teenager who breaks his window, but still require that he repair the damage.
B. Where does Scripture distinguish between mortal and venial sin?
1 Jn 5:16-17 proves degrees of sin, distinguishing between deadly sin, and sin that is not deadly
Jam 1:14-15 distinguishes desire from sin, and beginning sin from mature sin which brings death. Sin which brings death to the soul is mortal. Sin which only wounds and disfigures is venial. Both are bad and evil.
If you die in a state of grace, but with unforgiven venial sins, or with forgiven mortal sins for which some reparation is still due, then you do not merit Hell, but you must “pay the last penny.” For nothing unclean shall enter Heaven. (Rev. 21:27.)
C. Is Purgatory Scriptural? Yes.
Mt. 12:32 - [32] And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." - implies that some sins can be forgiven in the next world. Sin cannot be forgiven in Hell. There is no sin to be forgiven in Heaven. Therefore, any remission of sin in the next world must take place in some intermediate place. Catholics call this purgatory.
1 Cor. 3:15 - “[15] If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” - This cannot refer to eternal loss in Hell, because no one there can be saved. Nor can it refer to Heaven, for there no one suffers. It refers to a middle state where the soul temporarily suffers loss so that it may gain Heaven. This is essentially the definition of Purgatory.
1 Pet 3:18-20 - Christ speaks and preaches to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey. And in 1 Pet 4:6 - scripture speaks of the gospel being preached even to the dead. These passages speak of a prison for disobedient spirits from which they were saved. This is not Hell, because one cannot be saved from Hell, nor is it the “bosom of Abraham” because the spirits referenced in these passages are disobedient spirits. St. Peter is describing a temporary state for disobedient spirits who are eventually saved.
2 Macc 12:44-45 is a proof text in which the text explicitly shows that expiation is made for the sins of the dead. Even if you (as a “non-denom”) reject the canonicity of this book, you must acknowledge that it historically depicts the practices of the jews of 100 years before Christ - who then (as now) pray for their dead.
2 Tim 1:16-18 is another example of a former jew-turned-christian (St. Paul) who prays for his dead friend Onesiphorus.
There is plenty of scripture supporting the doctrine. It is you who choose to reject the logical and scriptural arguments for the doctrine because you perceive the doctrine to detract from the finished work of Christ. It does not. It shows how that finished work is applied. (Again, note the distinction between guilt and punishment.)
And as far as the “moneymaking” scheme goes, a stipend to a priest for saying a mass for a deceased person is $5.00, and the limit is one stipend per mass, and a priest is limited to the number of masses he can perform. So, from what you’re suggesting, this “money-making” scheme rakes in less than minimum wage, for about an hour a day at best. (So, in the immortal words of “Al Borland” - “I don’t think so, Tim.”)
Since you don’t believe that faith alone is sufficient to be saved, then what works do you suggest someone do to get into heaven? Luther tried all tpes of works and finally realized that it was faith alone that saved a man’s soul. When you talk about works… that is separate from faith. Works have nothing to do with salvation it has to do with what rewards you will receive in heaven.
The Reformation was started over the issue of faith versus works. That tells me that the Catholic church has a different opinion of what it means when the Bible says that a man is saved by faith. I admit that I do not know a whole lot about the Catholic religion… but what it comes down to is you are relying on the church to save you not Jesus. You have faith in an organized man-made religion. I have not read some of the links that some of you have suggested to me but I will try to read them. I would prefer to read a book if you can suggest one.
If these works were ours then of course you are correct, but they are not, they come from the grace of the cross of Christ. We are only channels of this grace, and as we give it away, we perform the works in question. Christ can not be out given, the more grace we give the more we receive. And since it is the grace of Christ, it is also His works and I am His instrument and then He accomplishes His work though me, thanks be to God. I am the vine, you are the branches.