Why is there not a single Protestant Understanding of the Bible?

[Luvtosew]

I just did a search of the Baltimore Catechism and haven’t seen a single thing in there that says that Catholics are not permitted to read the Bible.

Perhaps you can offer the quote from there that you think says this?

pcpbooks.net/docs/baltimore_catechism.pdf

Remember, this is your original premise:

Please back it up.

Still looking PR, I didn’t say not allowed, it answered a question about reading the Scriptures and they said, We ourselves need not search the sciptures or traditions but need to rely on the church for salvation.(along those lines)

so well whose going to read the scriptures, no need to, need not seek,
it was really the church would rather one not read the scriptures.

now they encourage it. big difference. PR page 154 , can you copy it all and post it here.
i don’t know how.

 

[Newsy]

Still looking PR, I didn’t say not allowed, it answered a question about reading the Scriptures and they said, We ourselves need not search the sciptures or traditions but need to rely on the church for salvation.(along those lines)

so well whose going to read the scriptures, no need to, need not seek,
it was really the church would rather one not read the scriptures.

now they encourage it. big difference. PR page 154 , can you copy it all and post it here.
i don’t know how.

All it says is that we can’t use the Bible alone, because it wouldn’t be understood in context. There is nothing about reading scripture by laity.

 

[Luvtosew]

Newsy,
what do you mean there is nothing about reading scripture by laity. I"m not sure what you mean.

did you read the parts I told PR about?

 

[Newsy]

Newsy,
what do you mean there is nothing about reading scripture by laity. I"m not sure what you mean.

did you read the parts I told PR about?

Yes, page 154. I found nothing about the laity and scripture. Do you have a specific reference?

 

[PRmerger]

Still looking PR, I didn’t say not allowed,

This is what you said, but you still haven’t offered anything from the Church that backs up your assertion.

Originally Posted by **Luvtosew **
IAll I can say is the Church did’t want people to read the Bible in the early days,

Maybe that’s what your parents told you, but they certainly did not hear it from the Magisterium of the Church.

As stated earlier, the Church even gave (and still does) indulgences for reading Scripture–meaning, of course, that she encourages the reading of Scripture by the laity, the exact OPPOSITE of your position.

it answered a question about reading the Scriptures and they said, We ourselves need not search the sciptures or traditions but need to rely on the church for salvation.(along those lines)

Actually, it answered a question about how we are to know what we believe–from Scripture and Tradition, or from the Church…

And that is very different from saying that the Church doesn’t want us to read the Bible. It is saying that we don’t have to rely on Scripture or Tradition to guess at what it means–the Church has given us the answer to our theological questions.

So no where, EVER, was it proclaimed that the laity are NOT to read the Scriptures.

 

[Luvtosew]

Q. 560. Where does the Church find the revealed traditions?

A. The Church finds the revealed traditions in the decrees of its councils; in its books of worship; in its paintings and inscriptions on tombs and monuments; in the lives of its Saints; the writings of its Fathers, and in its own history.

Q. 561. Must we ourselves seek in the Scriptures and traditions for what we are to believe?

A.** We ourselves need not seek in the Scriptures and traditions for what we are to believe. God has appointed the Church to be our guide to salvation and we must accept its teaching us our infallible rule of faith**.

Q. 562. How do we show that the Holy Scriptures alone could not be our guide to salvation and infallible rule of faith?

A. **We show that the Holy Scripture alone could not be our guide to salvation **and infallible rule of faith:

(1) Because all men cannot examine or understand the Holy Scripture; but all can listen to the teaching of the Church;

(2) Because the New Testament or Christian part of the Scripture was not written at the beginning of the Church’s existence, and, therefore, could not have been used as the rule of faith by the first Christians;

(3) Because there are many things in the Holy Scripture that cannot be understood without the explanation given by tradition, and hence those who take the Scripture alone for their rule of faith are constantly disputing about its meaning and what they are to believe.

I think this says enough.

 

[Luvtosew]

PR- I don’t know what you want, Catholics were never encouraged to read the bible, acturally** they were discouraged from reading it. **I know many Catholics who have never read the Bible.

No they didn’t say Dont read the Bible. How much plainer can it be.

How long have you been Catholic and were you born Catholic, please answer my quest.

 

[PRmerger]

How long have you been Catholic and were you born Catholic, please answer my quest.

I already answered this, Luv. You posed the question on a different thread at 5:30 and I responded by 5:47.

Please review that thread where you actually posed the question.

 

[PRmerger]

Q. 560. Where does the Church find the revealed traditions?

A. The Church finds the revealed traditions in the decrees of its councils; in its books of worship; in its paintings and inscriptions on tombs and monuments; in the lives of its Saints; the writings of its Fathers, and in its own history.

Q. 561. Must we ourselves seek in the Scriptures and traditions for what we are to believe?

A.** We ourselves need not seek in the Scriptures and traditions for what we are to believe. God has appointed the Church to be our guide to salvation and we must acceptits teaching us our infallible rule of faith**.

Q. 562. How do we show that the Holy Scriptures alone could not be our guide to salvation and infallible rule of faith?

A. **We show that the Holy Scripture alone could not be our guide to salvation **and infallible rule of faith:

(1) Because all men cannot examine or understand the Holy Scripture; but all can listen to the teaching of the Church;

(2) Because the New Testament or Christian part of the Scripture was not written at the beginning of the Church’s existence, and, therefore, could not have been used as the rule of faith by the first Christians;

(3) Because there are many things in the Holy Scripture that cannot be understood without the explanation given by tradition, and hence those who take the Scripture alone for their rule of faith are constantly disputing about its meaning and what they are to believe.

Amen! Catholics give a hearty amen to this, Luv.

I think this says enough.

Really? It says NOTHING at all about Catholic laity not being able to read the Scriptures.

As I stated already, “We ourselves need not seek in the Scriptures and traditions for what we are to believe. God has appointed the Church to be our guide to salvation and we must accept its teaching us our infallible rule of faith” simply means that we have the gift of the Church to explain things.

[SIGN1]It does NOT state that Catholic cannot read the Scriptures. [/SIGN1]

 

[Luvtosew]

What is really says is the CC is the souce of salvation. and we all know there is no salvation outside the CC. One needs the sacrements to be saved. That is what the Church teaches. don’t need to read the Bible, we will teach you what you need to know.

 

[PRmerger]

What is really says is the CC is the souce of salvation

Where?

The Catholic Church has always proclaimed that JESUS is the source of salvation, Luv.

and we all know there is no salvation outside the CC.

Right.

One needs the sacrements to be saved.

Well, that is the normative way, to be sure.

don’t need to read the Bible, we will teach you what you need to know.

You do know, Luv, that there are lots and lots of Christians who never read the Bible but are in heaven, right? For you do know that for 400 years there was no Bible. 400 years!!

That’s like the time from the Pilgrims on Plymouth Rock to modern times not having a Bible. Imagine how many Christians would have gone to hell because they didn’t have a Bible to read!

Again, thank God for the Catholic Church which was the means through which salvation was proclaimed!

No Bible yet they were saved.

Remember that, Luv, next time someone tells you that you have to read the Bible to be saved.

That sounds like they’re worshipping the Bible, doesn’t it?

 

[Luvtosew]

What do you need to be saved PR?

 

[PRmerger]

What do you need to be saved PR?

What do you need? The Church.
**
Who** do you need? Jesus.

**How **are we saved?

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By keeping the commandments (Matt 19:17)

By our words (Matt 12:37)

 

[Luvtosew]

Wonderful a whole bunch of Bible verses.

1. believe in God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit-
2. first need is Jesus as our Lord and Saviour
3. second is faith that he died for our sins and that of the world.
4. love our neighbors as ourselves.
   4… obey his commandments and confess and repent of our sins.
   5… much prayer to build a strong relationship with our Lord and keep our Holy Spirit strong
5. read scripture to know him better and as a blueprint of how to live our lives.

I’m glad you agree that reading the Bible is very important. The earlier one starts
the better. Just the proverbs themself would be great for teens, a blueprint for life.

 

[Anthony_V]

While I’m not a solo scripturist (Lutherans practice sola scriptura), I have just a comment. t is the case that those who claim Tradition and Scripture - Catholics, PNCC, Orthodoxy, Old Catholics - also have differing interpretations. Just sayin’.

Jon

The point is not the claiming of Sacred Tradition, but the authority to interpret. Every Christian church that practices the sacrament of baptism in the name of the trinity has inherited something incredible from the Church fathers. While this does not ensure that other doctrines will be resolved in unanimity, it gives a grounding point for common beliefs. For example, all of the “denominations” (if they could be called that), that you listed all have 7 sacraments, believe in some sort of Petrine primacy (though the extent is called into question), don’t believe in sola fide or sola scriptura, etc.
What you’re saying is like people trying to get from New York to London. Some try to swim, some take a rowboat (and a few friends), some take a motorboat and some take planes. All those who claim Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture could be likened to taking the plane. If, while during the flight there, three of the four passengers jumped out the plane each at different times, it doesn’t make the plane any less proper of a mode of transportation.

 

[PRmerger]

Wonderful a whole bunch of Bible verses.

Which you have courtesy of the Catholic Church.

If you are going to be honest, you owe the Catholic Church that much at least.

1. believe in God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit-
2. first need is Jesus as our Lord and Saviour
3. second is faith that he died for our sins and that of the world.
4. love our neighbors as ourselves.
   4… obey his commandments and confess and repent of our sins.
   5… much prayer to build a strong relationship with our Lord and keep our Holy Spirit strong
5. read scripture to know him better and as a blueprint of how to live our lives.

Are these some man-made decisions you’ve made as to what’s essential, Luv?

I’m glad you agree that reading the Bible is very important.

I only agree because the Catholic Church has proclaimed it to be so!

 

[CopticChristian]

Wonderful a whole bunch of Bible verses.

1. believe in God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit-
2. first need is Jesus as our Lord and Saviour
3. second is faith that he died for our sins and that of the world.
4. love our neighbors as ourselves.
   4… obey his commandments and confess and repent of our sins.
   5… much prayer to build a strong relationship with our Lord and keep our Holy Spirit strong
5. read scripture to know him better and as a blueprint of how to live our lives.

I’m glad you agree that reading the Bible is very important. The earlier one starts
the better. Just the proverbs themself would be great for teens, a blueprint for life.

Sew,

You are aware that with the Bible alone it is possible to have those who read it deny the trinity. You may want to take up the issue of the Church being the source of information with Paul. Paul said it years ago…He learned it by reading the Old Testament…nope…by revelation.

3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Blame revelation for the fact that the manifold Wisdom of God is made known by the Church…don’t feel too bad…even the angels have to wait to see what the manifold wisdom of God is because it comes through the mystery hidden for all ages, the Church…

 

[rinnie]

Still looking PR, I didn’t say not allowed, it answered a question about reading the Scriptures and they said, We ourselves need not search the sciptures or traditions but need to rely on the church for salvation.(along those lines)

so well whose going to read the scriptures, no need to, need not seek,
it was really the church would rather one not read the scriptures.

now they encourage it. big difference. PR page 154 , can you copy it all and post it here.
i don’t know how.

Yes thats what you keep saying. But you have been asked to produce something, anything that ever said the Church would rather one to not seek nor need to seek the scriptures.

Again if you are going to accuse the Church of anything please do it accurately.

The Church has always said if you are going to read the scriptures and not take into accout the time they were written, the spirit they were written, it is better to not read them and interpret them for yourself because you will get lost and not understand the meaning.

We are taught to first understand what we are reading, then to read them and pray on them and figure out what God is still talking and telling us today.

But when you get people who have no clue what the message really was, and they read a scripture and throw stones at others because they have no clue what they are talking about, THAT is what the Church is talking about.

Let me give you an example. The scripture states Let no man call you Father. How many people have accused us of sinning calling the Priest Father, but they turn around and do the same and call their own earthly father. Father. There you go. a prime example of not knowing what the message Jesus was relaying. The same message the Church is relaying. Don’t Teach and Preach the good news if you do not undersand what the good news is!!

 

[rinnie]

Still looking PR, I didn’t say not allowed, it answered a question about reading the Scriptures and they said, We ourselves need not search the sciptures or traditions but need to rely on the church for salvation.(along those lines)

so well whose going to read the scriptures, no need to, need not seek,
it was really the church would rather one not read the scriptures.

now they encourage it. big difference. PR page 154 , can you copy it all and post it here.
i don’t know how.

Actually nothing changed. The Church still teaches if you are going to take scripture out of context and not get the full meaning which has to be read in the Spirit of Oral Scripture AND Written Scripture it is better to not do so.

But by the way I am kind of lost here, what does reading the Scriptures have to do with Salvation?? Where does the bible ever state that reading the word of God will save you?

Another reason we need the Church to teach us as you seem to deny.

Tell me how can you be Baptised by reading scripture?
How can you eat and drink the bread of life by reading scripture?
How can you confess your sins by reading scripture?
How can you love one another by reading scripture?
How can the scripture itself tell you the Church is the pilar of all truth, if its all in the bible?

I could go on and on, but I believe you get my point.

One more last thing. How are we supposed to stick by Tradition and Scripture if Tradition is not written in the scriptures? Thats in the bible also! Where is Sacred Tradition supposed to come from if not the Church??

 

[Luvtosew]

Hey I love you all, but your making my point for me.

Yes the CC did teach me a bit about God and a lot about the CC(you know the sacraments, prayer and Mass) so well at least by the time I graduated high school, I knew the 10 commandments, God seen everything we did, and I knew how to go to confession and attend Mass, and a bit who Jesus was. I knew mortal sins and all about hell, limbo and purgatory,
But I never really knew God or had any relationship with him. Maybe yous had more teaching than I did, don’t know, but jjust talking to my friend the other day and she went to Catholic school throught 12th grade and a Catholic college and she never knew the host was the flesh of Jesus either , but well they don’t call us cafeteria Catholics for nothing, probably it should be called not well taught Catholics.

The point remains, some of you may need the CC to interpret the Bible for you, and thats ok, but gee I do believe we have a brain and the Gift of the Holy Ghost too.

How much more can the CC teach someone, at some point one needs to develope their own personal relationship with their saviour and Lord. Cant expect or should you even want the CC to tell you what to think or believe if you are adults.