Why Islam denies the crucifixion of Christ

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Planten,

You have Mohammed. Be a Mohammed expert.

When it comes to Christianity, the Christians are expert. And no breaks in teachings for 2,000 years.

When you talk about Christ’s death, it is in the imagery of storytelling, myths.

You can’t tell the difference between mythical information that has some truth mixed in and that which is objective truth, based on reality, proven by witness, and through the Church maintaining consistency beginning with the Jews down through the apostolic teachings.

Sorry.
 
Planten,

You have Mohammed. Be a Mohammed expert.

When it comes to Christianity, the Christians are expert. And no breaks in teachings for 2,000 years.

When you talk about Christ’s death, it is in the imagery of storytelling, myths.

You can’t tell the difference between mythical information that has some truth mixed in and that which is objective truth, based on reality, proven by witness, and through the Church maintaining consistency beginning with the Jews down through the apostolic teachings.

Sorry.
K G, B W has tried to reply to my points. I believed that:
  1. According to bible, all disciples of Jesus had fled the scene. So there were no witness.
  2. The idea of switching the persons is not Islamic. It is christian idea.
  3. Jesus had prayed to his God for the cup to be avoided.
  4. His God accepted his prayer (Quran) and sent an angel to support (assure) him.(bible)
  5. The herbs that Nicodemus brought were Mirhh and Aloes, i.e. anticeptic healing herbs.
  6. Quran is telling that Jesus was not crucified, meaning he was not killed on cross.
  7. Quran is also telling that the enemies could not kill Jesus in any other way too.
  8. Gnostics is not the problem of the Muslims. It is the problem of church.
  9. I agree to look into the gospels (four) who say that Jesus died on the cross.
  10. The most they will say is that he gave up the ghost. Was that the holy ghost?
I will not enter into any more arguments about life or death of Jesus. Christians can believe that Jesus died on the cross. Muslims will never believe that Jesus died on the cross because of the knowledge given to them. crucifixion means death on the cross. If death did not occur then the act of crucifixion would not be complete.

Church believes that Jesus died on the cross. So he was crucified. Muslims do not believe that Jesus died on the Cross. So they say that he was not Crucified. It is a matter of the words too, the undestanding of the act of crucifixion. The Jews and Christians and Muslims all believe that Jesus was put on the cross and suffered much.

The Jews and christians believe that Jesus was killed (died) on the cross (That is written in Quran.). But Quran says that he was not Crucified, meaning not killed on the cross. So Muslims do not believe that Jesus was dead when he was brought down from the cross.

Both teams can stick to their beliefs until the matter is resolved peacefully.

The christians believe in the original sin. That even the new born baby is a sinner. They need Jesus dead for the redemption of the sinners. Muslims do not believe in any original sin. They do not need any one to die for the sins of others. But the church needs to kill Jesus on the cross for its principle of atonement, i.e. salvation of the sinners and for its spread of religion. Muslims do not need that.

Each religion has its own principles. Let every one go their way, preaching peacefully. No hard feelings. I hope that enough information has been spread on this topic of Crucifixion. If any information is lacking then that new information only be presented. We will look into it.
 
K G, B W has tried to reply to my points. I believed that:
  1. According to bible, all disciples of Jesus had fled the scene. So there were no witness. .
nope the gospels clearly state that the disciples later witnessed the crucifixion , so too did the virgin mary so your argument tha tther wereno witnesses is flawed.
  1. The idea of switching the persons is not Islamic. It is christian idea. .
The idea of switching is from a Christian heresy founded by the 2nd century Gnostic leader basilides. Islam appropriated this belief because it because all Islam is ultimately is a Christian heresy . I haveproved that time and time again. It appropriated earlier heresies.The Gnostics who denied the crucifixion did so because they thought Jesus was all god and only appeared human as an illusion so therefore he couldn’t die and was replaced on the cross. Now do you accept that Jesus was all divine? You must do if you accept that the Gnostics had it right. Some of the Gnostics even had 30-100 gods you accept that to? didn’t think so. the earliest form of Christianity is orthodox Christianity for which there is far earlier evidence of belief in the resurrection. These Gnostic gospels were not written till 100-150 years after Jesus lived so they aren’t eyewitnesses and had nothing to do wit the earliest Christian communities and the Gnostic apocalypse of peter was not written by peter that is a fact.
  1. Jesus had prayed to his God for the cup to be avoided. .
Jesus prayed for the cup to be lifted if it was god’s will but it wasn’t and he was crucified not 1 verses in the bible ever says that he wasn’t.
  1. His God accepted his prayer (Quran) and sent an angel to support (assure) him.(bible) .
Please produce 1 verse in the bible which literally says god sent an angel to stop him from being crucified.
  1. The herbs that Nicodemus brought were Mirhh and Aloes, i.e. anticeptic healing herbs. .
So your arguing that Jesus wasn’t killed after crucifixion and healed by the herbs herbs? So he survived? You just contradicted your Koran which says he never even go to the stage of being crucified let alone survived it.
  1. Quran is telling that Jesus was not crucified, meaning he was not killed on cross. .
and why should we accept what the Koran says I have proven time and time again that it is just a compendium of spurious Christian tales which were so spurious that they were rejected by the church for being heretical. Other elements of Gnosticism in islam Gabriel being the holy spirit, some Gnostics believed Gabriel was very closely associated with the holy spirit one text says he bore a holy spirit. Also the idea of mary being in the trinity is another Gnostic idea in the Koran. If you accept these things then by all means accept their polytheist doctrines.
  1. Quran is also telling that the enemies could not kill Jesus in any other way too. .
hahah just because the koran says something that’s automatically proof. Mohammad never met ejsus and lived 600 years after he did. Why should I accept anything he says as accurate when I have already proven that he appropriated spurious Christian fairytales?
  1. Gnostics is not the problem of the Muslims. It is the problem of church. .
the Gnostics were heretical groups who did not exist till the mid2nd century yet we have far earlier evidence for the existence of orthodox Christianity and belief in the crucifixion and resurrection. Like the pre-pauline creed contained in Corinthians which has been dated by scholars to within a couple of years of Jesus
 
  1. The most they will say is that he gave up the ghost. Was that the holy ghost?
I will not enter into any more arguments about life or death of Jesus. Christians can believe that Jesus died on the cross. Muslims will never believe that Jesus died on the cross because of the knowledge given to them. crucifixion means death on the cross. If death did not occur then the act of crucifixion would not be complete.

Church believes that Jesus died on the cross. So he was crucified. Muslims do not believe that Jesus died on the Cross. So they say that he was not Crucified. It is a matter of the words too, the undestanding of the act of crucifixion. The Jews and Christians and Muslims all believe that Jesus was put on the cross and suffered much.

The Jews and christians believe that Jesus was killed (died) on the cross (That is written in Quran.). But Quran says that he was not Crucified, meaning not killed on the cross. So Muslims do not believe that Jesus was dead when he was brought down from the cross.

Both teams can stick to their beliefs until the matter is resolved peacefully.

The christians believe in the original sin. That even the new born baby is a sinner. They need Jesus dead for the redemption of the sinners. Muslims do not believe in any original sin. They do not need any one to die for the sins of others. But the church needs to kill Jesus on the cross for its principle of atonement, i.e. salvation of the sinners and for its spread of religion. Muslims do not need that.

Each religion has its own principles. Let every one go their way, preaching peacefully. No hard feelings. I hope that enough information has been spread on this topic of Crucifixion. If any information is lacking then that new information only be presented. We will look into it.
Jesus gave up his ghost? That is just an old English way to express that Jesus died used in the king James bible. In Mark the orginal greek word it uses is the word ἐξέπνευσεν (exepnuesen)which means to breathe your last or to expire

Its from the preposition ek from or out of and pneo which means to blow. So it is describing his spirit leaving his body.

In matthew it uses αφηκεν to yield, lay aside or forsake and πνευμα which literally means spirit

Now perhaps you understand what it means and it in no way confirms that Jesus didn’t die but rather the opposite, it confirms thathe did die and his spirirt left his body

No knowledge has been given to muslims, all that has been given to muslins is recycled heresies which is how I know 100% that Islam is not from god because if you research the groups who originated the doctrines in your Koran you will come into serious problems as they believe in the trinity (some of them), polytheism, dualism, docetism, luminaries aeons etc so many things that no Muslim would ever accept so your arguments that these are valid is nonsensical

Christians do not believe babies are sinners a infant cannot sin until they are of an age to gain knowledge of good and evil.

Muslims do need the salvation of Jesus because they are lost and blind. Chrisitanity is correct as it affirms the real world not pointless ideals. it affirms than man has a fallen and corrupted nature but islam affirms that mankind is basically good. Now which does history support if you study all the atrocities and brutal acts committed through out history it confirms than man is not basically good but hugely flawed. No human being on earth is without sin how is that possible if we are all good? its just illogical. mankind has a fallen nature and is not inherently good. “for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god” Romans 3:23 which is why we need jesus to save us from our sins following some 7th century laws and praying 5 times a day is not enough to save you planteen a law can never save you only the grace of god can because you can never follow a law good enough to god’s standards you will still fail.
 
Dear Jharek, Muslim mind is a closed mind, They cannot accept anything which is not been taught to them in quran or other books. Even in arguments they will always twist and turn and make the subject something else,

Imagine talking to them of Jesus birth, and they will reach Adam.They will always make you dizzy in talks.

They stay quite when taleban and others kill muslims, and are happy when they kill non moslems. Never raising their voices. But when cartoons or books are written eg danish cartoons or Satanic verses, they will go on a killing and destruction spree.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by planten
I believe in Da Vinci Code 100 % because it is the work of a very great genious Leonardo Da Vinci. You may not believe him but I do. So the marriage of Jesus with Mary Magd is a truth and there is no harm in telling the truth.

I came across this above comment and a thought came to my mind. was mohammed and davinci friends of H. G Wells? Maybe they must have been best of friends and hence when he came with the time machine, he must have taken them in the time of Jesus to see what all happened, and where by Da Vinci Painted and Mohammed wrote.🙂
 
K G, B W has tried to reply to my points. I believed that:

The christians believe in the original sin. That even the new born baby is a sinner. They need Jesus dead for the redemption of the sinners. Muslims do not believe in any original sin. They do not need any one to die for the sins of others. But the church needs to kill Jesus on the cross for its principle of atonement, i.e. salvation of the sinners and for its spread of religion. Muslims do not need that.

.
Dear Planten, the sacrifice system has existed right from the beginning. I dont know what quran says about it but muslims too believe in it hence sacrifice millions of sheep and goats every year. When asked they only say they do it because Abrahaim did. But they never question why did Abraham do it, why did God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son, if it was not the form of sin offering during those days, and Why didnt Abraham question God on it, unless it was the form of worship than and muslims dont even know of it.

Why dont Christians do it? because they believe Jesus was once and for all sacrifice and that includes all the people in the world who believe that Jesus is God who died on the cross and attoned us of the sin.
 
I will not enter into any more arguments about life or death of Jesus.
Planten, you have not addressed my counterpoints. You replied to someone else and simply repeated everything that I responded to.

You are once again attempting to run away from continuing honest debate. If you are sincere in your conversations with Christians, then please get back on track. If not, then I begin to wonder why you even enter into debate with Christians here.
 
The topic is " Why Islam denies the crucifixion of Christ ". It is better to define the word “Crucified”. Does it mean putting some one up on a tree or a cross? Or does it mean “Dying on the cross?”

The Quran admits the putting up of Jesus on the cross. But it denies the death of Jesus on the cross or death in any other way at that time. Church believes that Jesus died on the cross. Islam does not believe that Jesus died on the cross.

You are looking for reasons. Well both sides keep trying honestly.
Your superfluous comments contain nothing but combative, litigious and argumentative purpose. They are argument for the sake of argument.

Jesus Christ, the Only True God and Lord of all, was crucified, died (on the cross) and was buried.

This same Jesus Christ rose from the dead on the third day, ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
 
Planten, you have not addressed my counterpoints. You replied to someone else and simply repeated everything that I responded to.

You are once again attempting to run away from continuing honest debate. If you are sincere in your conversations with Christians, then please get back on track. If not, then I begin to wonder why you even enter into debate with Christians here.
And he never will because, he who does not have the Son, does not have the Father either.
 
Dear Planten, the sacrifice system has existed right from the beginning. I dont know what quran says about it **but muslims too believe in it hence sacrifice millions of sheep and goats every year. **When asked they only say they do it because Abrahaim did. **But they never question why did Abraham do it, why did God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son, **if it was not the form of sin offering during those days, and Why didnt Abraham question God on it, **unless it was the form of worship than and muslims dont even know of it. **

Why dont Christians do it? because they believe Jesus was once and for all sacrifice and that includes all the people in the world who believe that Jesus is God who died on the cross and attoned us of the sin.
I am looking forwards to what Muslims say about this. 🙂
 
Dear Planten, the sacrifice system has existed right from the beginning. I dont know what quran says about it but muslims too believe in it hence sacrifice millions of sheep and goats every year. When asked they only say they do it because Abrahaim did. But they never question why did Abraham do it, why did God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son, …
Yes. If a person cannot atone for another’s sins, how can an animal?

The only theological reasoning that Muslims have offered in this thread to explain the topic amounts to the effect, “The Qur’an says it, so it must be true.” And that seems to be the limit of their theological reasoning, not only for the instant question, but for almost any question.

The Bible, in contrast to the Qur’an, offers theology. Consider that God revealed Himself directly to Abraham and tests his faith by asking him to sacrifice Jacob, his only son. At the last moment, an angel stops him from killing Jacob. The sins of man are so terrible in the eyes of God that man cannot redeem himself; only a god could redeem man. God cannot expect man do something God himself is not willing to do *, so He sent his only Son [hence, the “Son of God”] in the form of a man [hence the “Son of Man”], Jesus, to be the sacrifice for man’s sins [hence the “‘Lamb’ of God”].

Now, this might be an oversimplified explanation; but, whether one believes it or not is beside the point … being it has at least a modicum of theology to explain how Christianity got from zero to here. What is the theology that got Islam from zero to where it is? All we have is Mohammed’s word for it.

If Mohammed and Islam are so great, why do they need help from Christianity and Judaism to validate their message and Mohammed’s prophethood? If they are so great, why can’t they stand on their own? Why is it so desperately necessary for Islam to deny the crucifixion of Jesus? Muslims are silent on this.

The fact is that Mohammed claimed to be the last in a line of Biblical prophets. Once he did that, he opened himself up to comparison/contrast with Judaism and Christianity. If Christianity is true, then Islam and Mohammed are false because the Bible contradicts Islam [e.g., Islam says, “no one can atone for someone else’s sins”]. If Islam is true, then technically, Christians [and Jews] are still waiting for the Messiah’s first appearance “Messiah” in the Biblical sense, not the Qur’anic sense], so Mohammed can’t be the last in the line of prophets. But what evidence does he point to for validation? His reasoning goes something like this: “The Old Testament prophets, and even Jesus, were rejected by their people, the Jews. I am being rejected by the Jews. Voilà!!! I too am a prophet!!!" [Never mind hasty generalization.] But then he has to answer questions on how his prophethood fits in with the Bible that he points to for validation. "Voilà!!! The Bible has been ‘corrupted’ so the world needs me instead!!!”

One can easily see the inescapable dilemma that Mohammed has placed himself in. On the one hand, he points to Old and New Testament scriptures to validate himself. Next he rejects the very scriptures he relies on for proof of his prophethood.

Islam has contradictory theology amounting to no theology; any reasonable person should reject it.*
 
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sedonaman:
Jacob 🙂
 
I think you mean Isaac (father of Jacob) there, Sedonaman.
That’s how it has come down to us thru the redactors.
The Qur’án says it was Ishmael, who did go to the wilderness, like a scape goat!

The Bahá’ís believe what is in the Bible to be true in substance. This does not mean that every word recorded in that Book is to be taken literally and treated as the authentic saying of a Prophet. A striking example is given in the account of the sacrifice which Abraham was called upon to make. The Guardian of the Faith confirms that the record in the Qur’án and the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, namely that it was Ishmael, and not Isaac as stated in the Old Testament, whom Abraham was to sacrifice, is to be upheld. In one of His Tablets 'Abdu’l-Bahá refers to this discrepancy, and explains that, from a spiritual point of view, it is irrelevant which son was involved. The essential part of the story is that Abraham was willing to obey God’s command to sacrifice His son. Thus, although the account in the Torah is inaccurate in detail, it is true in substance…
(The Universal House of Justice, 1987 Sept 14, Resurrection of Christ)
 
I think you mean Isaac (father of Jacob) there, Sedonaman.
That’s how it has come down to us thru the redactors.
The Qur’án says it was Ishmael, who did go to the wilderness, like a scape goat!

The Bahá’ís believe what is in the Bible to be true in substance. This does not mean that every word recorded in that Book is to be taken literally and treated as the authentic saying of a Prophet. A striking example is given in the account of the sacrifice which Abraham was called upon to make. The Guardian of the Faith confirms that the record in the Qur’án and the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, namely that it was Ishmael, and not Isaac as stated in the Old Testament, whom Abraham was to sacrifice, is to be upheld. In one of His Tablets 'Abdu’l-Bahá refers to this discrepancy, and explains that, from a spiritual point of view, it is irrelevant which son was involved. The essential part of the story is that Abraham was willing to obey God’s command to sacrifice His son. Thus, although the account in the Torah is inaccurate in detail, it is true in substance…
(The Universal House of Justice, 1987 Sept 14, Resurrection of Christ)
What evidence does this Abdu’l-Baha give that the account of Abraham and Isaac in the OT is inaccurate and that it was actually Ishmael?
 
And he never will because, he who does not have the Son, does not have the Father either.
Perhaps not. But it’s a subject worth talking about, and if someone wishes to engage in conversation about it, I’m not going to let them wander to avoid addressing some key issues.
 
Many great responses to the usual…and the usual inability to hear correct answers.
 
What evidence does this Abdu’l-Baha give that the account of Abraham and Isaac in the OT is inaccurate and that it was actually Ishmael?
Honestly, Jay, I don’t think anyone could retrieve the historical proof at this point. I wondered this when I read it in the Qur’an, and thought it was a tribal loyalty; but I accepted that many things were “brought to remembrance” in the Qur’an, from ancient times. This was simply not elaborated upon. Then, it came up again, long after my faith in Baha’i was established, and as the passage I quoted stated, it doesn’t matter, just as certain issues which relate to the authority of the Gospel are not questioned, simply because they are in the Gospel. Still, many things in our respective Books have yet to be fulfilled or carried out…such as death for cursing, or maiming for sin, “If thine eye offend thee…” I hope this answer was satisfactory because Ishmael’s is a peripheral issue.
 
DavidMark, sedonaman is wrong in saying that it was Jacob , but you are also wrong in saying that it was written in the Quran that it was Ishmael . that’s like saying the name of Alexander the Great is written in the Quran. please check the text again.
 
DavidMark, sedonaman is wrong in saying that it was Jacob , but you are also wrong in saying that it was written in the Quran that it was Ishmael . that’s like saying the name of Alexander the Great is written in the Quran. please check the text again.
Don’t forget that, even though the Koran does not explicitly say “It was Ishmael,” there is an entire Muslim holiday affirming that Abraham almost sacrificed Ishmael.

Eid al-Adha or Feast of Sacrifice is the most important feast of the Muslim calendar. It concludes the Pilgrimmage to Mecca. Eid al-Adha lasts for three days and commemorates Ibraham’s (Abraham) willingness to obey God by sacrificing his son. Muslims believe the son to be Ishmael rather than Isaac as told in the Old Testament. (source)

However, all this is getting off-topic on the topic of the crucifixion. I’d appreciate it if someone could perhaps take up planten’s job and continue what he started, if he is not willing to finish it.
 
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