Why Islam denies the crucifixion of Christ

[KathleenGee]

It is futile for Muslims to convince Christians to deny the crucifixion.

Just as it is futile for Christians to convince Muslims Mohammed was a prophet.

It is obvious how we affirm and hold what is truth is very different from the two cultures.

But I do not understand how people, who are geographically and culturally isolated from Christian culture can say they have the true prophet when he was born hundreds of years out of the event and knew no Christian believers except in passing.

It is not wise to go into a Muslim site and start to denounce Mohammed.

It is very painful and humiliating to people of faith to come into our house and deny the reality of Who Christ is.

Does that make any sense? I mean, put the shoe on the other foot. No, that is not a good imagery…walk one mile in another’s path and you will understand.

But here I see people defying reason. And think it bad taste to continue on …

 

[Maria65]

I’d appreciate it if someone could perhaps take up planten’s job and continue what he started, if he is not willing to finish it.

Planten’s job? You mean going round and round in circles, avoiding the questions presented to him, going off on tangents, denying, and making outrageous claims?

 

[Maria65]

…
Quote:
Originally Posted by planten
I believe in Da Vinci Code 100 % because it is the work of a very great genious Leonardo Da Vinci. You may not believe him but I do. So the marriage of Jesus with Mary Magd is a truth and there is no harm in telling the truth.

I came across this above comment and a thought came to my mind. was mohammed and davinci friends of H. G Wells? Maybe they must have been best of friends and hence when he came with the time machine, he must have taken them in the time of Jesus to see what all happened, and where by Da Vinci Painted and Mohammed wrote.

LOL, that makes about as much sense as some of the posts on this thread (not naming any names ).

 

[sedonaman]

DavidMark, sedonaman is wrong in saying that it was Jacob …

I did say,

… whether one believes it or not is beside the point …

…The point being, **where is the comparable Islamic theology from Muslims] that answers the topic proposition??? ** All we have gotten from them in this thread so far is the typical tu quoque,

Thanks for providing the proof that there were some christians who were believing that Jesus did not die on the cross…

and tangent discussions, repeating the same, “Well, it wasn’t really Jesus; it was someone else who only looked like Jesus because Allah wanted to deceive his enemies” … or, “He was rescued by Allah” … and, the best of all, “crucifixion means to die on a cross.”

Even if we allow that Allah’s goal was to deceive the people who wanted to kill Jesus, it is clear that the apostles also fell for Allah’s deception [remember, the apostles are prophets of Islam too]. So Allah deceives even his own prophets!!! If Jesus was a true prophet of Islam, He would have warned his followers not to turn away from Islam by falling for this trick that Allah was about to pull on His enemies. But Jesus never even tried to get that message across. As a result, millions of people from around the world now refuse to accept Islam because they believe that Jesus died on the cross for their sins.

When pressed to answer questions regarding its fantasy, Islam must invent to even more outlandish explanations, or remain silent, as St. John of Damascus noted.

None of Islam’s answers to its claims is theology; it is a succotash of backwards reasoning to get the conclusion Mohammed wants, i.e., acceptance of his self-proclaimed prophethood. And if you can’t come up with any theology, my conclusion is you don’t really know what you believe, which I can understand, because “there is a big difference between the original [Qur’an] in Arabic and a translation.”

All this is a result of Mohammed’s inability to prove his self-proclamation. That alone should be reason enough to conclude he is just one of the false prophets of which Jesus did warn us.

 

[planten]

Sedonaman, Allah did not decieve any one. He saved his beloved person i.e. Jesus from the cursed death on the cross. Allah did not replace Jesus with some other person. That is no where in the Quran or hadith.

It was Jesus himself on the cross. Allah did not decieve any of the disciples. Jesus himself travelled 70 miles to galilee and met his disciples. Quran does not deny that. There is no case of deceiving by Allah.

Allah plans and His plans are divine plans which are superior to any one elses plans. Think of the birth of Jesus. That was a divine plan too.

Allah planned to save Jesus from death on the cross. So He did it. There is no question of decieving any one.

 

[sedonaman]

Sedonaman, Allah did not decieve any one. He saved his beloved person i.e. Jesus from the cursed death on the cross. Allah did not replace Jesus with some other person. That is no where in the Quran or hadith.

It was Jesus himself on the cross. Allah did not decieve any of the disciples. Jesus himself travelled 70 miles to galilee and met his disciples. Quran does not deny that. There is no case of deceiving by Allah.

Allah plans and His plans are divine plans which are superior to any one elses plans. Think of the birth of Jesus. That was a divine plan too.

Allah planned to save Jesus from death on the cross. So He did it. There is no question of decieving any one.

This ignores my question,

Why is it so desperately necessary for Islam to deny the crucifixion of Jesus?

In other words, what are Islam’s theological reasons for all these “divine plans”? Why did Allah permit Jesus to be placed on a cross if he was going to save him anyway? If Allah’s plan did not include deception, why not just whisk Jesus away from his enemies? If “Allah’s plans are divine plans which are superior to any one elses plans”, he must have a reason for them. What are the reasons if not to deceive Jesus’ enemies?

There is no theology in your statements. Try again.

 

[Jay53]

Since Islam denies the crucifixion of Christ, how do Muslims interpret the prophecies regarding Him in the OT, (i.e. Isaiah 53)? Do Muslims believe these prophecies refer to someone else, and, if so, to whom do they refer and regarding what circumstances?

Thank you.

Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

8 By oppression [a] and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken. **

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes [c] his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life [d] and be satisfied [e] ;
by his knowledge [f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.**

 

[KathleenGee]

The examples from the Bible have already been presented several times…

Z…z…z…z…z…z…z

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Allah planned to save Jesus from death on the cross. So He did it. There is no question of decieving any one.

Planten, you have not addressed my counterpoints. You replied to someone else and simply repeated everything that I responded to.

You are once again attempting to run away from continuing honest debate. If you are sincere in your conversations with Christians, then please get back on track. If not, then I begin to wonder why you even enter into debate with Christians here.

I’m still waiting, planten.

The examples from the Bible have already been presented several times…

Z…z…z…z…z…z…z

Why respond to arguments against your case when it’s easier to just close your eyes and ears and say, “I can’t hear you! I’m just gonna keep repeating Jesus didn’t die on the cross because Mohammad said so!”

 

[Nine_Two]

I’m still waiting, planten.

Why respond to arguments against your case when it’s easier to just close your eyes and ears and say, “I can’t hear you! I’m just gonna keep repeating Jesus didn’t die on the cross because Mohammad said so!”

I think you just answered yourself there.

 

[DavidMark]

If it was up to that only, then I think Islam would be somehow acceptable, but the problem that most teachings contradict those in Christianity in addition to degrading Jesus to the lowest prophet. :dts:

I wouldn’t say He is degraded to the lowest prophet. His virgin birth is avowed. He spoke taught in childhood, something no other prophet did
**‘We formerly delivered the Book of the Law unto Moses and caused Messengers to succeed him, and We gave Jesus the son of Mary evident signs and confirmed him with the Holy Spirit. Do ye therefore, whenever a Messenger cometh unto you with that which your souls desire not, proudly reject him, and accuse some of imposture, and slay others?’ **[Surah ii, 81.)

Sounds like what Jesus said when He looked over Jerusalem…
Luke 13:34 **O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

 

[DavidMark]

Originally Posted by planten:
“I believe in Da Vinci Code 100 % because it is the work of a very great genious Leonardo Da Vinci. You may not believe him but I do. So the marriage of Jesus with Mary Magd is a truth and there is no harm in telling the truth.”

planten, sorry, but this lowers your perspicacity in my view. Why would Christ disobey His own law? Why is there no mention in the Scriptures of what would have been such an important event? Why do you accept DaVinci Code over Scripture!!!

He that married not could find no place wherein to abide, nor where to lay His head, by reason of what the hands of the treacherous had wrought. His holiness consisted not in the things ye have believed and imagined, but rather in the things which belong unto Us. Ask, that ye may be made aware of His station which hath been exalted above the vain imaginings of all the peoples of the earth. Blessed are they that understand.
(Baha’u’llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 71)

 

[planten]

Originally Posted by planten:
“I believe in Da Vinci Code 100 % because it is the work of a very great genious Leonardo Da Vinci. You may not believe him but I do. So the marriage of Jesus with Mary Magd is a truth and there is no harm in telling the truth.”

planten, sorry, but this lowers your perspicacity in my view. Why would Christ disobey His own law? Why is there no mention in the Scriptures of what would have been such an important event? Why do you accept DaVinci Code over Scripture!!!

He that married not could find no place wherein to abide, nor where to lay His head, by reason of what the hands of the treacherous had wrought. His holiness consisted not in the things ye have believed and imagined, but rather in the things which belong unto Us. Ask, that ye may be made aware of His station which hath been exalted above the vain imaginings of all the peoples of the earth. Blessed are they that understand.
(Baha’u’llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 71)

It is useless to present just one post to malign me. The Catholics were abusing the prophet Muhammad and posting the most dirty words against him and telling that he married a six year old girl. That was not necessary at all.

I tried to stop them from those things. They did not stop. So I mentioned the Da Vinci Code in which it is proved that Jesus was married to Mary Magd and they had a son too.

Of course, we Muslims do not believe that Jesus was married and had a son. But the book Da Vinci Code was quite a good help to rebutt the onsloght of the Catholics. They were presenting the “satanic verses” against Islam too.

My mission was not to abuse Jesus. Marriage is not any bad thing. But it was necessary to check the abuse of the pseudo-Catholics who were busy on the net. For that purpose I utilised the Da Vinci Code, film and the book.

It appers to me that the Catholics did not like my attack. It seems to hurt them even now. But they forget their own role in abusing Muhammad. A few were abusing and the rest were quietly enjoying that abuse.

 

[morning_star777]

Originally Posted by planten:
“I believe in Da Vinci Code 100 % because it is the work of a very great genious Leonardo Da Vinci. You may not believe him but I do. So the marriage of Jesus with Mary Magd is a truth and there is no harm in telling the truth.”

Indeed,because Leonardo Da vinci was reborn as Dan Brown

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

It is useless to present just one post to malign me. The Catholics were abusing the prophet Muhammad and posting the most dirty words against him and telling that he married a six year old girl. That was not necessary at all.

I tried to stop them from those things. They did not stop. So I mentioned the Da Vinci Code in which it is proved that Jesus was married to Mary Magd and they had a son too.

Of course, we Muslims do not believe that Jesus was married and had a son. But the book Da Vinci Code was quite a good help to rebutt the onsloght of the Catholics. They were presenting the “satanic verses” against Islam too.

My mission was not to abuse Jesus. Marriage is not any bad thing. But it was necessary to check the abuse of the pseudo-Catholics who were busy on the net. For that purpose I utilised the Da Vinci Code, film and the book.

It appers to me that the Catholics did not like my attack. It seems to hurt them even now. But they forget their own role in abusing Muhammad. A few were abusing and the rest were quietly enjoying that abuse.

Planten, you have not addressed my counterpoints. You replied to someone else and simply repeated everything that I responded to.

You are once again attempting to run away from continuing honest debate. If you are sincere in your conversations with Christians, then please get back on track. If not, then I begin to wonder why you even enter into debate with Christians here.

 

[morning_star777]

planten, sorry, but this lowers your perspicacity in my view. Why would Christ disobey His own law? Why is there no mention in the Scriptures of what would have been such an important event? Why do you accept DaVinci Code over Scripture!!!

As i said before, perhaps our friend planten think that Leonardo the vinci was reborn as Dan brown so he claim that it is the great work of Leonardo Da Vinci.And about Scriptures?No chance,our friend planten always refused some parts of his own scriptures that against his thoughts. And one important thing,planten also reject most of pure hadiths.So we realized that he has a different version of Islamic scripture named **the planten version of Islamic scriptures

PS. David I am really sorry I have misquoted your post in my previous reply:blush:,because ** I didn’t see before that you quoted the post of planten with inverted comma , so i thought that it is your comment too.So I quoted just the first part before reading the full post.

 

[jakasaki]

QUOTE=planten;5876859]It is useless to present just one post to malign me. The Catholics were abusing the prophet Muhammad and posting the most dirty words against him and telling that he married a six year old girl.

Oh please, cry me a river! It was your statement, your post about The DaVinci Code written by Leonardo himself.

And as far as your prophet, there were NO dirty words posted since this site filters and your prophet did marry a 6 year old Aishia. It’s in your own books.

…

I tried to stop them from those things.

You cannot stop us from quoting your books and your islamic history.

They did not stop. So I mentioned the Da Vinci Code in which it is proved that Jesus was married to Mary Magd and they had a son too.

That booked proved nothing! There is an old saying here in America…

“there’s a fool born each day”!!!

Prove to us that Jesus was married
Prove to us that Jesus married to Mary M
Prove to us that Jesus had a son
Prove to us all of the above through reliable historical facts… Prove it!

Of course, we Muslims do not believe that Jesus was married and had a son.

If you don’t believe in such, then why the heck would you even bring it up?

But the book Da Vinci Code was quite a good help to rebutt the onsloght of the Catholics

.

Seriously, you actually think we care.

Did you see Catholics riot over such a book and over such a movie.

Did you see Catholics burn down embassies over the book & movie.

Did you see Catholics burn down and over throw cars in the streets and set fire to buildings.

They were presenting the “satanic verses” against Islam too.

Hey, the presented them because they are in your book. They didn’t make them up.

You just can’t stand it when we reveal from your books which you have closed your eyes upon.

My mission was not to abuse Jesus.

You already “deny the crucifixion of Christ”.

Marriage is not any bad thing. But it was necessary to check the abuse of the pseudo-Catholics who were busy on the net. For that purpose I utilised the Da Vinci Code, film and the book

.

You gotta do better next time. Catholics “busy on the net” do one thing and one thing only. They tell the truth and expose the lies. We have nothing to hide.

It appers to me that the Catholics did not like my attack.

Attack, seriously, get over yourself. There in no way you can ever attack us and we cannot defend ourselves with the truth.

Remember, **your allah **stated that “he guides whom he wants and he does not guide whom he wants”.

It seems to hurt them even now.

There is absolutely NOTHING islam can do to hurts us. Not one thing.

But they forget their own role in abusing Muhammad.

No one is abusing mohamad. Your problem is that we show & quote & point everything mohamad did and you simply don’t like it.

You remind me of a young teenager, one who never listens & who does everything wrong but blames everyone else for his/hers mistakes.

A few were abusing and the rest were quietly enjoying that abuse.

What’s funny about your posts is this.

So far, as long as I’ve been here, I’ve never seen another muslim member praise you or concur with your postings ( ahem… I could be wrong… if I missed them) while on the other hand, **you **seem to praise you fellow muslim members on here. Hmmmmm!!

Perhaps you are a single goldfish in the pond…

Your “love for all, hatred for none” does not seem to be in correlation with the rest of islam. You can preach to us Christians that what we see here today is NOT real islam, but you won’t make a difference until you take up that argument with the muslim who are doing the “bad things to make islam look bad”.

You can start with the taliban & al-quada & osama bin laden & zawahiri

Perhaps you time is best well served for the sake and name of islam is to go out in the field in islamic lands and fight for your “love for all…” deal .

And for the record, this is the first post I’ve personally written to you since you stopped using funky colors and fonts.

 

[dolphinlove]

My dear Catholic brothers and sisters…
I think its really time to ask ourselves this question…
A person who thinks Dan Brown is writing the truth about Jesus and your waiting for logical responses off said person???
Good luck!
Dolphinlove

 

[sedonaman]

…
If you don’t believe in such, then why the heck would you even bring it up?
…

Somehow maligning Jesus mitigates the insults to Mohammed.

 

[sedonaman]

It is useless to present just one post to malign me. The Catholics were abusing the prophet Muhammad and posting the most dirty words against him and telling that he married a six year old girl. That was not necessary at all.
…

Actually, you are right; it was not necessary, and it wouldn’t have happened if you had seriously answered the honest questions put to you, like,

What are the teachings of Jesus? You have said in the past that the Bible had been corrupted by the introduction of ideas such as the Trinity and those of that dastardly Paul of Tarsus. … You have also said in prior posts that Jesus taught “many” good things. If that is true, and the Qur’an is to correct the “corruptions” of prior revelations, where in the Qur’an are the “good teachings” of Jesus such as the Lord’s Prayer and the Sermon on the Mount? If those are “corruptions” also, what do Muslims consider the “good teachings” of Jesus?

It’s been over two months since I first asked, and I have not yet received an answer from you yet even though I have reminded you many times.