Why Islam denies the crucifixion of Christ

[KathleenGee]

I have issues with Muslims being so hot headed about anyone offending the name of Muhammed, etc., but the aggressive indifference shown Christians regarding our belief in Christ as the Son of God, and the saving work of His crucifixion.

I try to tone it down regarding my own personal opinion of Muhammed…but I also think it necessary that people ‘let it out’ about theirs regarding him.

I also checked the post on Planten that also included the banned Muslim woman. There was one like her on Newsvine who was extremely anti-Jewish, used vulgar and obscene language describing them or Catholic priests. She was Palestinian living in New York and claimed she was an American; her mother owned houses over there. She asked me what kind of two piece bathing suit I wore…bikini, etc…I told her how old I was…how she got up on the platform at the mosque and converted people…

Posters would respond to her in a very civil way but at the same time, addressing her own behavior. She was so full of herself and her virtue, they didn’t even phase her.

It is the Far Left that is accommodating such people moving into the USA as they are in Europe to further whittle away at the foundations of Judeo-Christianity, so I don’t suffer these types very well.

After reading ‘The Planting’ posts on different threads for some time now, I think it is time to squarely deal with them.

 

[sedonaman]

…
So I mentioned the Da vinci Code. If there was anything wrong, they should blame Leonardo or Dan Brown. Not me. I did not write da Vinci Code.

No, but you cited it as a source of proof that Jesus married Mary Magdalene.

There had been a member here Ben Masada who virtually proved that Mary Magd was the wife of Jesus.

Using the Da Vinci Code as a reference? If not, what was his proof? Give us a reference.

I have said that I believe in Jesus as the prophet (Messenger) of God.

And what was his message? You have said in the past that the Bible had been corrupted by the introduction of ideas such as the Trinity and those of that dastardly Paul of Tarsus. You have also said in prior posts that Jesus taught “many” good things. If that is true, and the Qur’an is to correct the “corruptions” of prior revelations, where in the Qur’an are the “good teachings” of Jesus such as the Lord’s Prayer and the Sermon on the Mount? If those are “corruptions” also, what do Muslims consider the “good teachings” of Jesus?

I also did not believe that Jesus got married to Mary Magd.

You said that Leonardo Da Vinci proved that he was:

I believe in Da Vinci Code 100 % because it is the work of a very great genious Leonardo Da Vinci. You may not believe him but I do. So the marriage of Jesus with Mary Magd is a truth and there is no harm in telling the truth.

…But do not abuse others from some doubtful writings.

The doubtful writings are the Qur’an, the Hadith, and Sira. Why is quoting these texts “abusing” Mohammed?

Because then you will have to face other writings i.e. excellent investigation of the very learned man Leonardo. He was genious and a christian too. That is all your problem. Go fight with him or fight with Dan Brown.

Do you ever read what you post to check it for consistency?

…
Also we believe that bible is a revealed book. That only some parts of it have been modified (or corrupted). Not all the bible is corrupted. …

So tell us which parts are corrupted [besides the Trinity and the writings of that dastardly Paul of Tarsus] and why Mohammed relies on a corrupted book to validate his prophethood.

And still you blame the Muslims.

For all the Muslim claims that the Bible was corrupted, they have no trouble corrupting it further. Is it any wonder we blame Muslims?

 

[sedonaman]

Actually, by impugning his own “proofs”, he has imitated Mohammed completely.

 

[Jay53]

Personally I think Planten has developed a multiple personality syndrome. The one side is embarrassed by some of the ridiculousness posted by the other side and is trying to backpedal or somehow soften or justify it. The speech and tone of the two different sides is completely different.

 

[planten]

Nine_two:

The DaVinci code is a work of fiction, and has never been held to be anything more. There have been conspiracy theories from time to time which have asserted the idea that Jesus was married, however none of these are what you brought up. Additionally Leonardo DaVinci has nothing to do with these fables. By attaching his name to it you show your own ignorence on the subject, and reveal your attack to be nothing but a hasty strawman

If Da Vinci Code is a work of fiction and is not true the please note that all Hadith are also not true. The Christians used some odd Hadith to malign the prophet and abused him. I do not agree to thos eHadith. I feel that those Hadith were introduced into Muslim books by some chritians, just like some christian monk (saint) introduced the idea that it was not Jesus on the cross. The christians fed that idea into muslim books.

So you forget about those adverse Hadith. i will forget about the Da Vinci Code. The name of Leonardo Da Vinci is very much mentioned in that book and the film. Why did any one have to start such a controversy?

The topic is " Why Islam denies the crucifixion of Christ ". I feel that I have explained the reason why the Muslims do not believe that Jesus was crucified. There is no need to carry it any further. AS far as this topic is concerned, enough has been said about it. There need not be any more explanation. If the Catholics think that the reasons presented are wrong, there is no harm to any one. You can try to convince the Muslims about their mistake. Do it. I feel that there is no one here as Muslim poster now, not to be seen in topics under discussion.

 

[sedonaman]

If Da Vinci Code is a work of fiction and is not true the please note that all Hadith are also not true.

I am not defending the Hadith, but this statement is a non-sequitur. The da Vinci Code has nothing to do with the Hadith.

The Christians used some odd Hadith to malign the prophet and abused him. I do not agree to thos eHadith. I feel that those Hadith were introduced into Muslim books by some chritians, just like some christian monk (saint) introduced the idea that it was not Jesus on the cross. The christians fed that idea into muslim books.

Those wascally christians hatched another conspiracy plot. When you are in a hole, the first rule is to stop digging.

The topic is " Why Islam denies the crucifixion of Christ ". I feel that I have explained the reason why the Muslims do not believe that Jesus was crucified.

You have not, unless you consider the reason is because Mohammed said it, which of course we reject as being no proof at all. Note: this doesn’t prevent you from believing it if you want, after all, there is even a Flat Earth Society theflatearthsociety.org/cms.

 

[Jay53]

If Da Vinci Code is a work of fiction and is not true the please note that all Hadith are also not true. The Christians used some odd Hadith to malign the prophet and abused him. I do not agree to thos eHadith. I feel that those Hadith were introduced into Muslim books by some chritians, just like some christian monk (saint) introduced the idea that it was not Jesus on the cross. The christians fed that idea into muslim books.

So you forget about those adverse Hadith. i will forget about the Da Vinci Code. The name of Leonardo Da Vinci is very much mentioned in that book and the film. Why did any one have to start such a controversy?

The topic is " Why Islam denies the crucifixion of Christ ". I feel that I have explained the reason why the Muslims do not believe that Jesus was crucified. There is no need to carry it any further. AS far as this topic is concerned, enough has been said about it. There need not be any more explanation. If the Catholics think that the reasons presented are wrong, there is no harm to any one. You can try to convince the Muslims about their mistake. Do it. I feel that there is no one here as Muslim poster now, not to be seen in topics under discussion.

Which “christian monk (saint)” introduced the idea that it was not Jesus on the cross? Please provide a source for this information. Thank you.

 

[Nine_Two]

If Da Vinci Code is a work of fiction and is not true the please note that all Hadith are also not true. The Christians used some odd Hadith to malign the prophet and abused him. I do not agree to thos eHadith. I feel that those Hadith were introduced into Muslim books by some chritians, just like some christian monk (saint) introduced the idea that it was not Jesus on the cross. The christians fed that idea into muslim books.

I’m sorry, come again, which Saint introduced the idea that it was not Jesus on the cross? I’m pretty sure you’ve already refused to answer this but I’ll give it a shot and see what you say.

Additionally I was under the impression that the Hadith in question (which discusses your prophet marrying a six year old girl) was widely considered accurate by Muslims. Indeed, in the Religious Studies class I attended which covered Islam, and had a large number of Muslims in attendence, no one said anything when this hadith was brought up. But when the prof suggested Mohammed may have been literate, the hellfire which erupted was just amazing. Clearly you do not share unity with your Muslim brothers.

So you forget about those adverse Hadith. i will forget about the Da Vinci Code. The name of Leonardo Da Vinci is very much mentioned in that book and the film. Why did any one have to start such a controversy?

I don’t particularly care if you “forget about the DaVinci Code” to be quite honest. The way you’ve been going on about it is self defeating to your own arguments, especially when you say you don’t believe it. Really I find the Koran quite a bit more offensive than the DaVinci code. I suppose I could agree to forget the Hadiths if you’ll forget the Koran.

The topic is " Why Islam denies the crucifixion of Christ ". I feel that I have explained the reason why the Muslims do not believe that Jesus was crucified. There is no need to carry it any further. AS far as this topic is concerned, enough has been said about it. There need not be any more explanation. If the Catholics think that the reasons presented are wrong, there is no harm to any one. You can try to convince the Muslims about their mistake. Do it. I feel that there is no one here as Muslim poster now, not to be seen in topics under discussion.

No you haven’t. You gave an answer which provoked response and refused to respond to any of that. Instead you’ve always answered the questions that have taken us off topic. The question Byzantine_Wolf is asking is very relevent to the original topic. Answer him.

 

[Nine_Two]

You think this is entertaining? Consider there was a fellow poster, “samaan” by username, who was very knowledgeable and provided some excellent contributions to this forum, but planten succeeded in driving him away. Here is a sample of what transpired before [and if you’ve followed planten for a while, ask yourself if it sounds familiar]:

Originally Posted by planten.

samaan.

samaan.

samaan.

samaan.

samaan.

samaan.

samaan.

When presented with this exchange, planten replied:

That is indeed quite sad.

 

[DavidMark]

Muhammad’s spirit has to witness what has become of His community, denying the crucifixion of Jesus! This is the failure of the people, not the Qur’an. Despite all the warnings in the Qur’án about idols, ‘Moslems’ have still fallen into idolatry, and need the same severe rescue that other communities did. It was not gods carved of material this time but the mullahs, qadís, and local imams that obfuscate Truth. To them the rank and file “Moslems” submitted and still submit, instead of to the Truth.

I would like to put the final word on this subject --at least my need to say anything:

Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. Matthew18:21-22

This is not just about us forgiving each other, but about God about to forgive mankind through the supreme sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. Jesus is referring to the prophecy in Daniel 9:24-26.
70 X 7 = 490.
Construction on the Second Temple commensed 456-7 BCE, by the decree of the Persian king Artaxerxes decreed that Jerusalem should be rebuilt. (see Ezra 7)
457 BC + 490 = 33 CE, the age of Jesus, when “an anointed one” was to be “cut off”, that is, Jesus was crucified. How can the Qur’an verify the Books of the past and deny this?

 

[wwolverine]

If Da Vinci Code is a work of fiction and is not true the please note that all Hadith are also not true. The Christians used some odd Hadith to malign the prophet and abused him. I do not agree to thos eHadith. I feel that those Hadith were introduced into Muslim books by some chritians, just like some christian monk (saint) introduced the idea that it was not Jesus on the cross. The christians fed that idea into muslim books.

So you forget about those adverse Hadith. i will forget about the Da Vinci Code. The name of Leonardo Da Vinci is very much mentioned in that book and the film. Why did any one have to start such a controversy?

The topic is " Why Islam denies the crucifixion of Christ ". I feel that I have explained the reason why the Muslims do not believe that Jesus was crucified. There is no need to carry it any further. AS far as this topic is concerned, enough has been said about it. There need not be any more explanation. If the Catholics think that the reasons presented are wrong, there is no harm to any one. You can try to convince the Muslims about their mistake. Do it. I feel that there is no one here as Muslim poster now, not to be seen in topics under discussion.

Hahahah, I had a nice laughter and enjoyed plantens joke a lot. Keep it up Planten, at last I know you to be humurous too.

So you compare Da Vinci code to Hadiths, thats great, If you had compared it to satanic verses i would have understood, but to Hadiths, makes me think that Hadiths are ficiton too, unless you say otherwise.

As far as my understanding goes Hadiths are essential part to understand the quran, as without them, its very difficult to understand quran, and with your comaprision of Davinci to Hadiths, I now know that even Quran is a fiction, which so many writers have been saying for eons, but it fell on muslims deaf ears, but finally you have come out in the open, I appreciate.

As I christian i would say, no need of forgeting Da vinci, go ahead believe it as much as possible, its your life and you are entitled to your beliefs, and if you feel Da Vinci is the actualy book which was never corrupted unlike the Holy Bible, go ahead and belief.

As I said before, Mohammed and Leonard must have travelled in time to see what really happened and than told Dan brown, who wrote the book, Cause otherwise, it clearly says its a work of fiction, and so it is, unless Planten thinks otherwise.

Best of Luck.

 

[dolphinlove]

If Da Vinci Code is a work of fiction and is not true the please note that all Hadith are also not true. The Christians used some odd Hadith to malign the prophet and abused him. I do not agree to thos eHadith. I feel that those Hadith were introduced into Muslim books by some chritians, just like some christian monk (saint) introduced the idea that it was not Jesus on the cross. The christians fed that idea into muslim books.

This just keeps getting better. Planten, you make me laugh, laugh so hard ive got stomach cramps. Around 90% of muslims believe in the hadiths, are you going to speak for them as well? They believe in every word of them. The Da Vinci code is a book… thats it, a work of fiction, its not true and a man made the story up. Unlike the hadith which was not made up and many muslims live by them. And who is this Christian Monk Saint? Christians fed ideas into muslims books??? show us evidence.

So you forget about those adverse Hadith. i will forget about the Da Vinci Code. The name of Leonardo Da Vinci is very much mentioned in that book and the film. Why did any one have to start such a controversy?

One is a work of fiction the other is lived by 90% of muslims, that is the difference!

The topic is " Why Islam denies the crucifixion of Christ ". I feel that I have explained the reason why the Muslims do not believe that Jesus was crucified. There is no need to carry it any further. AS far as this topic is concerned, enough has been said about it. There need not be any more explanation. If the Catholics think that the reasons presented are wrong, there is no harm to any one. You can try to convince the Muslims about their mistake. Do it. I feel that there is no one here as Muslim poster now, not to be seen in topics under discussion.

Where did you explain it? Planten, you continually use word play and lie, it doesnt get you anywhere, that is why i left for a while, cause i cant stand when ppl have to lie to try and win, it only makes the liar look worse.

 

[KathleenGee]

Planten,

What you just ‘witnessed’ here was the Judeo Christian experience of revelations through time.

We are People of Salvation History, not a Book. As a member said, not all of our religion is found in the Bible.

We have history. We know our history.

We remember, especially in the Memorial of the Mass. Every Sabbath, and for those those who attend Mass every day, we are witnesses again as People of Salvation History when we hear and relive in the Spirit, the events of the Jewish people in the Old Testament through the Life, Death, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is Truth, as He called Himself before His crucifixion in identifying Himself to Pontius Pilate. Jesus Christ is the Final Revelation of Who God is, and Who He is to us.

It took almost 400 years to fully and completely define Christ found in the Nicene Creed. The first Heresy was denying His sacred Body and Blood found in the Eucharist. In time, it was denying His humanity. How easy it is for people to believe in God, and how easy it is to hate one’s neighbor wearing the mask of virtue.

There are people here who have read the Koran, the Hadiths and Suras…Planten, why not read the Gospels of Jesus from a Catholic Bible, not protestant that was completed 1500 years later then come back.

And you contradict yourself just as Mohammed did.

 

[KathleenGee]

Reviewing other great and insightful posters here, indeed, who were the Arabs who came to Jerusalem at Christ’s death??? Name the Arab witnesses of Christ’s death.

From what I have studied in regards to the history of Islam, Mohammed never made claim to Jerusalem, he didn’t want it. Mohammed never entered into Jerusalem. He simply rode by it.

The place that Mohammed was supposed to have risen to heaven from his horse…instead, the Catholic Church of St. Mary Major of Justinian was at the site. The Muslims invaded Jerusalem and destroyed the Church of St. Mary of whom you allegedly venerate. So, in all actuality, Mohammed rose to heaven from the top of a Catholic church.

Thus the Holy Land, the epicenter of Judaism and Christianity, our holiest of sites, was overtaken by Islam.

Islam has no historical rights to Jerusalem and Israel. Dhimmitude was enforced on Jewish and Christians, and Palestine was once one of the most densest populations of Christians anywhere, the Jews forcibly exiled.

How would Muslims be if the Jews or Christians invaded the holiest of Muslim sites and imposed second class citizenship on the Muslims? Or the Muslims are expelled from the lands of their origins, they hold on to their faith and customs, and are finally able to return, but encounter teeming populations of infidels controlling all their sites of religion?

It is Islam who calls us the enemy, the infidel. True religion explains the meaning of life.

Truth does not contradict itself.

 

[planten]

You may be more informed about Dan Brown and Leonardo. I do not know them (Dan Brown) much. And I do not need to know him. But it is clear that you people are selectice (touchy and choosy) in the matter of your religion. You do not believe a few things which you do not like even though they may be true, e.g.

1. Jesus was not God. he never said he was God. he never asked any one to worship him. But you will not like any of these things.
2. You do not like that your god should be married, even if Ben Masada proved it or Dan Brown presented some proof.

But you always like to stick some mud on others no matter how much they try to avoid it.

As I said, I know nothing about that Dan Brown. So if you people have anything, it should be against that person, D. Brown. He may very well be a christian or catholic.

Since You have mentioned Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. he was a genious. He wrote a book “Jesus in India”. It is available on the net. I assure you that he also proved everything about jesus travelling to India in search of the “Lost sheep of Israel”. Jesus had said that he had other sheep too and that it was necessary that he go to them. So he went to them. You may find out where were those lost sheep (10 tribes of Israel) and where did Jesus go?

Also there is another book on this subject titled “Jesus in heavens on earth”… That book is most likely written by some disciple of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. In that book, author has proved with photos, references, quotations, coins, tablets that Jesus in fact went to Kashmir. Jesus was accompanied by his mother Mary. She died at “Murrey”. He gave a photo of the grave of Mary too.

I know that majority Muslims do not agree with Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. But that should not stop any one from investigating the truth. There is another book which may be of help titled “Revelation, Rationality, knowledge and truth” written by the grandson of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Atheism is also discussed in that book.
Those books are written by Ahmadis who are considered heretic by mainline Muslims as Jesus was considered a heretic by his people i.e. the Jews of his time. Perhaps the present day Jews still consider Jesus as heretic even after 2000 years. I am not sure about that. I am with Jesus and Moses and Muhammad. I have no problem with Jesus or his true disciples.

Be happy. You are raising all the questions and mentioning names to me. Otherwise i had no need to point out anything (any details) about the beliefs of the Ahmadis.

 

[dolphinlove]

You may be more informed about Dan Brown and Leonardo. I do not know them (Dan Brown) much. And I do not need to know him. But it is clear that you people are selectice (touchy and choosy) in the matter of your religion. You do not ou believe a few things which you do not like even though they may be true, e.g.

Dan Brown is the author of the book you keep bringing up, the da vinci code, the MADE UP fiction you keep classifing as real.
You show us any proof ANYTHING in the davinci code is real.

1. Jesus was not God. he never said he was God. he never asked any one to worship him. But you will not like any of these things.

John 10:30 “I and the Father are one.”

John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

This is Jesus quoted, from the bible, saying he and the Father are one, which means he is God.

1. You do not like that your god should be married, even if Ben Masada proved it or Dan Brown presented some proof.

Ben was proven to be wrong or didnt you read the thread as well? There is no proof Jesus was married.

But you always like to stick some mud on others no matter how much they try to avoid it.

As I said, I know nothing about that Dan Brown. So if you people have anything, it should be against that person, D. Brown. He may very well be a christian or catholic.

Noticed how i highlighted ‘to avoid it’, as this is your favourite thing to do.

Since You have mentioned Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. he was a genious. He wrote a book “Jesus in India”. It is available on the net. I assure you that he also proved everything about jesus travelling to India in search of the “Lost sheep of Israel”. Jesus had said that he had other sheep too and that it was necessary that he go to them. So he went to them. You may find out where were those lost sheep (10 tribes of Israel) and where did Jesus go?

Also there is another book on this subject titled “Jesus in heavens on earth”… That book is most likely written by some disciple of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. In that book, author has proved with photos, references, quotations, coins, tablets that Jesus in fact went to Kashmir. Jesus was accompanied by his mother Mary. She died at “Murrey”. He gave a photo of the grave of Mary too.

He was a fruit cake! He lied and has led many astray. We are not interested in any
of his false teachings and you trying to pedal his books.

I know that majority Muslims do not agree with Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. But that should not stop any one from investigating the truth. There is another book which may be of help titled “Revelation, Rationality, knowledge and truth” written by the grandson of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Atheism is also discussed in that book.
Those books are written by Ahmadis who are considered heretic by mainline Muslims as Jesus was considered a heretic by his people i.e. the Jews of his time. Perhaps the present day Jews still consider Jesus as heretic even after 2000 years. I am not sure about that. I am with Jesus and Moses and Muhammad. I have no problem with Jesus or his true disciples.

Be happy. You are raising all the questions and mentioning names to me. Otherwise i had no need to point out anything (any details) about the beliefs of the Ahmadis.

Now answer the questions people are asking you and stop your diversion tactics.

 

[Nine_Two]

You may be more informed about Dan Brown and Leonardo. I do not know them (Dan Brown) much. And I do not need to know him. But it is clear that you people are selectice (touchy and choosy) in the matter of your religion. You do not believe a few things which you do not like even though they may be true, e.g.

If you don’t know much about something, don’t make it a central point of your argument.

1. Jesus was not God. he never said he was God. he never asked any one to worship him. But you will not like any of these things.

“Truely truely I say to you, before Abraham existed, I AM.” If that’s not a claim to divinity, I don’t know what is. And indeed, although he never demanded that others worship him, he never tried to stop them from doing so, something that angels and the like did. Therefore either Jesus was God, or he had nothing to do with God (and was not even a prophet). Now the other things which happened in his ministry lead me to conclude that he was in fact God.

1. You do not like that your god should be married, even if Ben Masada proved it or Dan Brown presented some proof.

Stop saying he proved it if you don’t believe it yourself. Clearly he didn’t prove it.

But you always like to stick some mud on others no matter how much they try to avoid it.

You’ve hardly tried to avoid it.

As I said, I know nothing about that Dan Brown. So if you people have anything, it should be against that person, D. Brown. He may very well be a christian or catholic.

Then don’t make him the central point of your argument, it makes you look foolish.

Since You have mentioned Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. he was a genious. He wrote a book “Jesus in India”. It is available on the net. I assure you that he also proved everything about jesus travelling to India in search of the “Lost sheep of Israel”. Jesus had said that he had other sheep too and that it was necessary that he go to them. So he went to them. You may find out where were those lost sheep (10 tribes of Israel) and where did Jesus go?

There is a sect that believes Christ went to Japan after he was done in Israel and had a whole family there. And of course there is another sect that believes he came to North America. I’m sure there is probably a sect out there who believe he went to Australia too. St. Thomas went to India, all indiginous Christian groups on the subcontinent agree with this. Surely if Jesus went to India they would be the first to embrace this.

Also there is another book on this subject titled “Jesus in heavens on earth”… That book is most likely written by some disciple of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. In that book, author has proved with photos, references, quotations, coins, tablets that Jesus in fact went to Kashmir. Jesus was accompanied by his mother Mary. She died at “Murrey”. He gave a photo of the grave of Mary too.

“Most likely” that’s great, it’s pseudepigraphical.

Now how about you answer which Saint came up with the idea that Christ was not crucified?

 

[sedonaman]

…
I have no problem with Jesus or his true disciples.
…

So, according to Islam, what are the good teachings of Jesus?

 

[KathleenGee]

Planten,

It upsets people when you give references we know are myths…the Gnostics, for example.

Also, in our culture, we have been taught to discern truth from false…people here are on all different levels, and they all serve a purpose.

The bottom line is that how you discern what is truthful is so different than ours.

What is myth? What is historical fact? t in the development of the Church, it is far more difficult, because we are submitting to the Holy Spirit working not only through the Apostles, His witnesses, but many others, including the early Church Fathers who finished the work of revelation ending with Christ through the Nicene Creed.

In spite of your insistence to impose myths on us, you do not have to fear any fatwa here.

To the Plantings…God bless you !

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Hello Planten.

Planten, you have not addressed my counterpoints. You replied to someone else and simply repeated everything that I responded to.

You are once again attempting to run away from continuing honest debate. If you are sincere in your conversations with Christians, then please get back on track. If not, then I begin to wonder why you even enter into debate with Christians here.