Why Islam denies the crucifixion of Christ

  • Thread starter Thread starter DeusVult09
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I accept him as Christ (as defined by Jewish ) which DOES not include his divinity…

also, you add too much words on the verse quoted,
That makes sense. Mahomet wanted to be a Jewish prophet and was rejected therefore since you follow Mahomet in his errors you would still follow Jewish thinking. Now, if you could only learn to actually follow God instead of a man.
 
I believe that in their break from paganism they could no longer accept the concept of human sacrifice and had reached the point where they could conceive of a Deity without giving it human form (Islam does not allow statues and icons in their places of worship). Therefore the figure of Yehoshua bar Yosef is neither a “god” in Islam nor is the story of the crucifixion an accepted part of Islam.
 
Hi J paul

I think that during Mohammad’s 40 years before his alleged prophethood he encountered many Christian teachings many of which were heretical. I think the source for much of this lies with Waraqah a Nestorian priest who was close to Mohammad and related to him through marriage. I think he influenced Mohammad with these heretical ideas. Nestorians believe that Jesus had 2 natures 1 human and divine and that Jesus wasn’t really crucified because he was god so just his human form was killed whilst his divine spirit watched on. Pretty much just like the Gnostics. I don’t think these things were added later but a result of many religious influences synthesized by the in the Koran. Mohammad is said to have been illiterate but we don’t really know since only Muslim sources talk of this in an effort to make their holy book appear divine. I think Mohammad would have encountered all these things orally, stories, myths and legends played a big role in pre-Islamic Arabia. There were scraps written down on bones and scraps of paper but one unified codex of the Koran was not formulated till under Caliph uthman who lived some 20 years after Mohammad had died.

Mohammad tried to be a prophet to the Jews , he tried to get them onboard initially talking about the Jews favorably in his Koran and praying towards Jerusalem. But when it was clear that the Jews would not accept his religion he became more hostile to the Jews , saying they killed the prophets (which is actually a saying of Jesus and since Muslims don’t believe he was killed im curious as to which prophets they killed) and he changed the direction of prayer to mecca. He became further hostile towards the Jews massacring some 900 of them and claiming that they all must die before the day of judgment will come.

Why has this unsettled you so much? I think Islam is a Christian heresy. It twisted the truth and produced nothing but lies. The fact that it contains these Gnostic abominations reveal that the author of the Koran wasn’t god. For if we are to accept this account of the crucifixion to be from god then we must accept all Gnostic doctrine to be true as well.
*Hey Deus Vult,

It’s unsettling because so many people are following a faith that is possibly just made-up from the very start. That nothing of it is the truth. I can see them disagreeing with us, but millions of people have died because of peoples’ belief in a false faith from the get-go. And, today thousands of people are being killed by extremists of this false faith. every month.

There are many solemn believers in this faith. It’s the most outrageous thing I’ve ever come up against. Sickest thing I’ve ever seen in my life.

Thank you for your dilligence in explaining the incredible amount of falsehoods in this faith. It is, without a doubt, frightening to say the least that so many people have been taken by this faith and that so many have died and still will in the name of this faith.

take care and thank you for this enlightening experience.

jpaul1953*
 
*Hey Deus Vult,

It’s unsettling because so many people are following a faith that is possibly just made-up from the very start. That nothing of it is the truth. I can see them disagreeing with us, but millions of people have died because of peoples’ belief in a false faith from the get-go. And, today thousands of people are being killed by extremists of this false faith. every month.

There are many solemn believers in this faith. It’s the most outrageous thing I’ve ever come up against. Sickest thing I’ve ever seen in my life.

Thank you for your dilligence in explaining the incredible amount of falsehoods in this faith. It is, without a doubt, frightening to say the least that so many people have been taken by this faith and that so many have died and still will in the name of this faith.

take care and thank you for this enlightening experience.

jpaul1953*
yes i know what you mean. Islam is the greatest farce known to mankind so much of it comes from spurious sources but Muslims still hold that Mohammad got all this from Allah when its far more believable that he was just influenced by various heretical forms of Christianity

Yes its sad that so many have died because of Islamic fundamentalism. Its sadder still that the Muslims blame all these terrorist acts on the Jews rather than admit the truth but that’s a different subject.

Its sad that so many people have been taken in by Islam, they have been blinded to the truth and cannot see how false Islam is . Simply by examining Islam’s origins we can know for sure Mohammad got nothing from Gabriel. Even the Islamic heaven, jannah the reason why so many convert to islam and follow the religion diligently in the hope to geti n when they die. Even this is plagiarized from some 4th century Christian hymns. Even scholars have admitted this and no Muslim can explain to me how these hymns got into the Koran

Islam ha really deceived so many people, its sad that none of them actually researched the origins of the religion like have instead when you show this stuff to Muslims they usually accuse you of being a liar.
 
I believe that in their break from paganism they could no longer accept the concept of human sacrifice and had reached the point where they could conceive of a Deity without giving it human form (Islam does not allow statues and icons in their places of worship). Therefore the figure of Yehoshua bar Yosef is neither a “god” in Islam nor is the story of the crucifixion an accepted part of Islam.
Islam never broke with paganism , it still contains elements which entered into the religion straight from paganism such as revering the black stone, circling the kaba, running between safa and marwa. The pagans eve prayer 7 times a day similar to Muslims.

The thing is Mohammad took a crucifixion account from the Gnostics which said that jesus was all god and his appearance as a human was just an illusion and hence couldn’t crucified.

Why accept the Gnostic account of the crucifixion and not accept their other beliefs as well? Because these other beliefs are the reason for the denial of the crucifixion, this docetism.

. This account comes from a group which even Muslims would consider pagan. It makes no sense.
 
Hi J paul

I think that during Mohammad’s 40 years before his alleged prophethood he encountered many Christian teachings many of which were heretical. I think the source for much of this lies with Waraqah a Nestorian priest who was close to Mohammad and related to him through marriage. I think he influenced Mohammad with these heretical ideas. Nestorians believe that Jesus had 2 natures 1 human and divine and that Jesus wasn’t really crucified because he was god so just his human form was killed whilst his divine spirit watched on. Pretty much just like the Gnostics. I don’t think these things were added later but a result of many religious influences synthesized by the in the Koran. Mohammad is said to have been illiterate but we don’t really know since only Muslim sources talk of this in an effort to make their holy book appear divine. I think Mohammad would have encountered all these things orally, stories, myths and legends played a big role in pre-Islamic Arabia. There were scraps written down on bones and scraps of paper but one unified codex of the Koran was not formulated till under Caliph uthman who lived some 20 years after Mohammad had died.

Mohammad tried to be a prophet to the Jews , he tried to get them onboard initially talking about the Jews favorably in his Koran and praying towards Jerusalem. But when it was clear that the Jews would not accept his religion he became more hostile to the Jews , saying they killed the prophets (which is actually a saying of Jesus and since Muslims don’t believe he was killed im curious as to which prophets they killed) and he changed the direction of prayer to mecca. He became further hostile towards the Jews massacring some 900 of them and claiming that they all must die before the day of judgment will come.

Why has this unsettled you so much? I think Islam is a Christian heresy. It twisted the truth and produced nothing but lies. The fact that it contains these Gnostic abominations reveal that the author of the Koran wasn’t god. For if we are to accept this account of the crucifixion to be from god then we must accept all Gnostic doctrine to be true as well.
*Hey, DeusVult,

Well, I believe this helps me understand Islam’s belief that Jesus Christ was a failed prophet. Based on my understanding that somehow God put the spirit of the Christ in the body, but the body failed at its job. Sounds like God can’t develop a good enough human to handle the job.So in here lies the major division between the Gnostic belief (transfiguration of Jesus when necessary) and the Jerusalem teaching that Jesus was all divine and all human. I do believe Bahai’ s agree with the Gnostics, being based in Islam anyway.

I might be a little off on my view, but I believe I get the picture better. I’m no longer unsettled but I am still uncomfortable with the followers ignorance to the real Koran.

I know the Islamic hierarchy appear to threaten anyone who questions anything in the Koran. Any question seems to be considered heresy. I guess they should not allow any dissention if Mohammed didn’t receive these total revelations directly from God. Followers may find out that it’s borrowed and thereby false.

This is why I asked if we knew whether Mohammed spoke these words exactly or was it in any way altered as they say the NT was. I guess we really can’t find this out.

The moslems knock down our faith as a total falsification of the truth but if we say anything like this about their faith, we are liars and fools.

Thank you for your work here and on the other post.

Take care and may God bless you.

jpaul1953*
 
does not apply to Muslims , we believe he is the Christ
That’s PRECISELY who the verse refers to.

Mahometans refuse to accept the truth that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh.
 
I was pondering something recently with a friend.

It is fascinating to me that, although Muslims don’t believe the crucifixion happened the way Christians do, they can’t agree among themselves precisely what happened. Some believe in the swoon theory, some believe it only appeared that Christ suffered (Docetism), some believe in the Judas replacement theory, etc. Yet Christians know what happened: Christ suffered, died on the cross, and was resurrected in a spiritually glorified body. Compared between these two, we have to ask whose God really is the author of confusion (1 Cor 14:33).
 
I accept him as Christ (as defined by Jewish ) which DOES not include his divinity…

also, you add too much words on the verse quoted,
“As defined by the Jews?” You mean the same Jews who do not accept Him? Those Jews? “Christ” comes from the Greek translation of the Hebrew “Mašíaḥ”, from which we ultimately get the English “Messiah”. Go on…ask any Jew if they think that Jesus is their Messiah. I’ll wait.

…Any luck? No, I didn’t think so. If you are following the Jewish definition/tradition, you DO NOT believe that Jesus is the Christ. Unless of course (and I think this is much more likely, even if I strain myself to come up with some charitable way of understanding things) you are just borrowing a term you don’t really understand from the Christian and Jewish tradition, in the same way that Islam “borrows” the story of the Virgin Birth, the OT characters it reinvents through its pan-Arabist world view to fit Islam’s deluded fantasy of continuity with Jewish and Christian tradition, etc.

Go on. Prove me wrong. Finish this sentence: “Jesus’ status as ‘Christ’ within Islam means _______ (specific idea, not something that could apply to anyone).” Christians and Jews have specific ideas of what this title means, even if they disagree on who holds it. I want to know the orthodox Islamic idea.
 
“As defined by the Jews?” You mean the same Jews who do not accept Him? Those Jews? “Christ” comes from the Greek translation of the Hebrew “Mašíaḥ”, from which we ultimately get the English “Messiah”. Go on…ask any Jew if they think that Jesus is their Messiah. I’ll wait.

…Any luck? No, I didn’t think so. If you are following the Jewish definition/tradition, you DO NOT believe that Jesus is the Christ. Unless of course (and I think this is much more likely, even if I strain myself to come up with some charitable way of understanding things) you are just borrowing a term you don’t really understand from the Christian and Jewish tradition, in the same way that Islam “borrows” the story of the Virgin Birth, the OT characters it reinvents through its pan-Arabist world view to fit Islam’s deluded fantasy of continuity with Jewish and Christian tradition, etc.

Go on. Prove me wrong. Finish this sentence: “Jesus’ status as ‘Christ’ within Islam means _______ (specific idea, not something that could apply to anyone).” Christians and Jews have specific ideas of what this title means, even if they disagree on who holds it. I want to know the orthodox Islamic idea.
👍
 
dzheremi, my Islam is like a son ,you can call him an illegitimate son ,but he really wants to know about his grandfather and father (Judaism and Christianity) and to inherit the good things they said and did…and that includes the Jews understanding of the Messiah.

the point I wanted to make in the previous post is , the Jews most certainly didn’t expect a god/man Messiah , but 100% human , just like King David was 100% human…
 
You are avoiding my question, Hadi. It’s nice that you want to know about Christianity and Judaism. Now I want to know about Islam, specifically, what “Christ” means in Islam. Can you help me, please?
 
It is fascinating to me that, although Muslims don’t believe the crucifixion happened the way Christians do, they can’t agree among themselves precisely what happened
.

I agree. And what to me is most facinating is that the Muslim prophet claimed that it was the Christians who were confused about the events!
 
You are avoiding my question, Hadi. It’s nice that you want to know about Christianity and Judaism. Now I want to know about Islam, specifically, what “Christ” means in Islam. Can you help me, please?
Messiah (Hebrew: משיח‎; mashiah, moshiah, mashiach, or moshiach, (“anointed [one]”) is a term used in the Hebrew Bible to describe priests and kings, who were traditionally anointed. For example, Cyrus the Great, the king of Persia, is referred to as “God’s anointed” (Messiah) in the Bible.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messianism

in islam Jesus Christ is called Al-Masseeh المسيح which means the-wiper or the-Rubber as he used to wipe on the eye of the blind to recover their eyesight and also used to wipe on those infected with leprosy to cure them.
 
dzheremi, my Islam is like a son ,you can call him an illegitimate son ,but he really wants to know about his grandfather and father (Judaism and Christianity) and to inherit the good things they said and did…and that includes the Jews understanding of the Messiah.

the point I wanted to make in the previous post is , the Jews most certainly didn’t expect a god/man Messiah , but 100% human , just like King David was 100% human…
If you want to stick to what nowadays Jews believe, you will have to believe that Jesus is not the Messiah. On the other hand, if you want to believe what the other Jews at Jesus’ time believed, you must read what they wrote, not what those who rejected Jesus expected…besides, Jesus asks you to ask Him directly because the scriptures are about Him so instead of looking for words , look for Him and He will open your mind to understand scriptures as they are meant to be understood, not as what some want them to mean.
 
The biggest fear of satan has been the Cross and Jesus’s victory over death. The very foundation of what satan did right from the beginning stands to crumble, with what Jesus did, and the only way he can still try to be victorious is by making the event a farce, which is what has been done in Islam,

All who believe that Jesus never died are all what satan is claiming for himself.
Why Islam denies the crucifixion of Christ

**The Koran, Surah 4.156-57: **

“And for their saying, **‘Verily we have slain the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, an Apostle of God.’ Yet they slew him not, and they crucified him not, but they had only his likeness. **And they who differed about him were in doubt concerning him: No sure knowledge had they about him, but followed only an opinion, and they did not really slay him, but God took him up to Himself. And God is Mighty, Wise!”

Muslims have suggested on the basis of this verse that Judas was crucified in Jesus’ stead . This is a very Gnostic idea , that Jesus just appeared to be crucified and proves without a doubt that Islam was influenced by Gnosticism
 
Muslims have suggested on the basis of this verse that Judas was crucified in Jesus’ stead . This is a very Gnostic idea , that Jesus just appeared to be crucified and proves without a doubt that Islam was influenced by Gnosticism
didn’t you think before that may be this sect is the right sect !

Few christians are aware that Thomas belongs to the Gnostic sect
The Literalist Christians followed Paul, a man who never met Jesus. During the centuries of persecution, burning of books, and assassination of characters, the Gnostics were defeated:

These can be broadly categorized into two different schools. On the one hand there were those we will call Literalists, because what defines them is that they take the Jesus story as a literal account of historical events. It was this school of Christianity that was adopted by the Roman Empire in the fourth century CE, becoming Roman Catholicism and all its subsequent offshoots. On the other hand, however, there were also radically different Christians known as Gnostics.’ These forgotten Christians were later persecuted out of existence by the Literalist Roman Church with such thoroughness that until recently we knew little about them except through the writings of their detractors. Only a handful of original Gnostic texts survived, none of which were published before the nineteenth century.

(Timothy Freke, The Jesus Mysteries: Was the “Original Jesus” a Pagan God? p. 7)

According to modern scholarship, Paul was a Gnostic:
Many Gnostic groups claimed Paul as their founding father and Gnostics calling themselves “Paulicians” continued to flourish, despite persistent persecution from the Roman Church, until the end of the tenth century. Paul wrote his letters to churches in seven cities, which are known to have been centers of Gnostic Christianity during the second century. These Christian communities were led by the Gnostic sage Marcion, for whom Paul was the only true apostle. One thing is for sure: if Paul really were as anti-Gnostic as the Literalists claim, then it is astounding how many Gnostic texts quote him or are actually attributed to him. The followers of Marcion even had a gospel, which they claimed was written by Paul. (ibid, p. 160)

according to you , you will hold the idea that mohammed (pbuh) studied gnostic releigion and influenced by it then wrote the quran ( where only 2 verses from entire quran proof to you how far he was influenced by gnostic sect of christianity)

according to us (muslims) , we will hold the idea that this knowledge is from God directly not from gnostic knowledge
and we will hold the idea that between hundreds of gospeles and canons and scets existed through the first 3 century , there should be some of these sects have the truth ( which we find it’s teaching common with islam)

what i wanna to say that similarities between islam and gnostic proof nothing to muslims , it just proof that through first century there were christians hold the same beliefs muslims have about jesus (pbuh)
 
didn’t you think before that may be this sect is the right sect !
No, because most of the Gnostic sects contradicted what was taught by the Jews and later Muslims. They believed in many demiurges (lesser gods or divine beings) and borrowed heavily from the pagans that Islam would later make war with. It is therefore often hilarious to me when Muslims turn to the Gnostics as if the Gnostics do not contradict the teaching that Allah has no partners. In fact, they believed Allah had MANY partners, MANY children, and MANY lesser beings.
The Literalist Christians followed Paul, a man who never met Jesus. During the centuries of persecution, burning of books, and assassination of characters, the Gnostics were defeated:

These can be broadly categorized into two different schools. On the one hand there were those we will call Literalists, because what defines them is that they take the Jesus story as a literal account of historical events. It was this school of Christianity that was adopted by the Roman Empire in the fourth century CE, becoming Roman Catholicism and all its subsequent offshoots…
This Timothy Freke should not be taken seriously. There was no “Roman Catholic” Church, at least as we know it today until the 11th century and beyond. To Orthodox Christians like myself, this simple-minded, very childish history of the early Church is typical of those who continue to think in a solely western mindset and buy into vast Catholic conspiracy theories that would make Jack Chick laugh.

And regarding Paul, it must be remembered that he worked with the original disciples of Jesus. They accepted him. There was no sign of any conflict between Matthew, James, John and company versus Paul and no sign that they refused to acknowledge him as an apostle of Christ. The Koran itself says that the early followers of Jesus were full of truth and were faithful followers of God - were they also spineless? We would have to assume so if they did not seek to stop Paul from corrupting the Church.
According to modern scholarship, Paul was a Gnostic…
One author’s isolated opinion is not “modern scholarship.”

Likewise, if you’re going to discuss Christian history, do not go to second-hand sources and isolated scholars (most of them Atheists, who would deny Islam as being a real religion as well, and therefore completely disagree with your conclusion) and go to the contemporary sources from that time period. Read the early Church Fathers, read the histories, and read the writings that went back and forth between the different churches. Instead of presenting conspiracy theories based on no cited evidence, cite evidence from the time period to show us this gradual disollution into a “Pauline” Christianity.

And by the way…
The followers of Marcion even had a gospel, which they claimed was written by Paul.
No, do not use Marcion, who believed that the God of the OT was an evil demiurge and that Jesus was sent from a different god to save us from the previous God. It seems strange to me that Muslims often turn to him, or cite evidence that his cause was legitimate, when he outright confesses that Allah is an evil god - after all, Allah is the God of the OT, is He not? Therefore, why even bother with his opinion - Mohammad would not have. This is what I meant earlier by the inconsistent use of sources and the weak argument regarding the other “sects” that were supposedly Christian.
 
Dear Elwill

The quote you refered to my post was actually not by me. but was the original posting to this post.

What I had actually written was this.
**
"The biggest fear of satan has been the Cross and Jesus’s victory over death. The very foundation of what satan did right from the beginning stands to crumble, with what Jesus did, and the only way he can still try to be victorious is by making the event a farce, which is what has been done in Islam,

All who believe that Jesus never died are all what satan is claiming for himself. "**

wolverine

Quote:
Originally Posted by wwolverine

Muslims have suggested on the basis of this verse that Judas was crucified in Jesus’ stead . This is a very Gnostic idea , that Jesus just appeared to be crucified and proves without a doubt that Islam was influenced by Gnosticism

didn’t you think before that may be this sect is the right sect !

Few christians are aware that Thomas belongs to the Gnostic sect
The Literalist Christians followed Paul, a man who never met Jesus. During the centuries of persecution, burning of books, and assassination of characters, the Gnostics were defeated:

These can be broadly categorized into two different schools. On the one hand there were those we will call Literalists, because what defines them is that they take the Jesus story as a literal account of historical events. It was this school of Christianity that was adopted by the Roman Empire in the fourth century CE, becoming Roman Catholicism and all its subsequent offshoots. On the other hand, however, there were also radically different Christians known as Gnostics.’ These forgotten Christians were later persecuted out of existence by the Literalist Roman Church with such thoroughness that until recently we knew little about them except through the writings of their detractors. Only a handful of original Gnostic texts survived, none of which were published before the nineteenth century.

(Timothy Freke, The Jesus Mysteries: Was the “Original Jesus” a Pagan God? p. 7)

According to modern scholarship, Paul was a Gnostic:
Many Gnostic groups claimed Paul as their founding father and Gnostics calling themselves “Paulicians” continued to flourish, despite persistent persecution from the Roman Church, until the end of the tenth century. Paul wrote his letters to churches in seven cities, which are known to have been centers of Gnostic Christianity during the second century. These Christian communities were led by the Gnostic sage Marcion, for whom Paul was the only true apostle. One thing is for sure: if Paul really were as anti-Gnostic as the Literalists claim, then it is astounding how many Gnostic texts quote him or are actually attributed to him. The followers of Marcion even had a gospel, which they claimed was written by Paul. (ibid, p. 160)

according to you , you will hold the idea that mohammed (pbuh) studied gnostic releigion and influenced by it then wrote the quran ( where only 2 verses from entire quran proof to you how far he was influenced by gnostic sect of christianity)

according to us (muslims) , we will hold the idea that this knowledge is from God directly not from gnostic knowledge
and we will hold the idea that between hundreds of gospeles and canons and scets existed through the first 3 century , there should be some of these sects have the truth ( which we find it’s teaching common with islam)

what i wanna to say that similarities between islam and gnostic proof nothing to muslims , it just proof that through first century there were christians hold the same beliefs muslims have about jesus (pbuh)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top