Why Islam denies the crucifixion of Christ

[planten]

Please understand that, even though the activity of Jesus after the cross is not described in Quran, it is described in the Gospel. We Muslims believe it. Similarly we believe in the suffering of Jesus on the Cross.

About Baha’is teaching about resurrection, they believe in the spiritual resurrection only and not in the bodily becoming alive of Jesus. That is a faulty belief.

Spiritual resurrection only ! Why. That means that the spirit of Jesus also died. If there was a spiritual rsurrection then it means that the spirit had also died on the cross. That is a bad belief of the Baha’is (if I can say so). If the spirit was alive and had not died, then there was no need of any spirtual resurrection.

I have noted it in the last few posts of DavidMark that the Baha’is do not believe in bodily resurrection of Jesus. They believe that Jesus died on the cross and that was the end of Jesus body material, never to to be seen or revived. I do not believe that.

DavidMark says in the various recent post:
That was the end of him. (Physically) His soul went up to God. (His Spirit is with us always, accessible and mighty) …(He was in their hearts, which is what matters. If they were in Galilee, He was in Galilee)

… (We most certainly do believe in the Resurrection of FAITH, which only God can do. Re-read what I wrote, and seek the Spirit and not the Body…only the Spirit matters here, not the body. He was with them afterwards; is He still with us now? Certainly NOT in the Body. If He could be around for a few days after the Crucifixion, WHY NOT THOUSANDS OF YEARS? I have fully outlined our position…so let’s not dominate this thread any more, planten. )

… i personally don’t care about a **physical resurrection **because it doesn’t do anything for me. What i love about Christ is His spiritual Body, able to visit in dreams, and help me love as He loved.

only the Spirit matters here, not the body. Not even soon after the Crucifixion?? I think that is not the belief of the christians. Am I wrong??

 

[Melkite_Sword]

Since time immemorial. jakasaki, we Muslims believe in bibleNT, in all the revealed boks of Allah and we believe in all the messengers of Allah. Jesus was one of them. He said he was sent. Please read it in the gospel.
You are right. We believe that Jesus was seen alive three days after Crucifixion. How he was alive is a disputed matter. But we Muslims fully believe that Jesus was alive, walked to Amause (some village), met two travellors on that voyage. He went to Galilee and met his disciples. We believe all that even though it is not so described in the Quran.

So do you believe Jesus DIED and then ROSE ?

 

[DavidMark]

Brother planten said: “How (Jesus) was alive is a disputed matter,” and i’m tired of disputing it. None of you have seen Jesus physically, but you insist on this.
It’s like trying to prove how all the other miracles happened. All speculation.
Now, if you say you “see” Him with the eye of God, your eye of truth, inner vision, the heart’s eye, Then you have my attention, because that is the determinant to behavior.
I have always told you and the Christians straight out, planten, it is a spiritual reality. What is so hard about that? Your ancient formulas seem to put matter above spirit!
It was reported elaborately by the writers, but symbolically. It is not faulty. I’m the one talking about the “crucial” (of the Cross) issue. The spirit is the substance and the body does not “matter”. Another reason I say this is, if you’re expecting the Nazarene to come with nail holes in His hands, you will never see it. But if you hear the Truth-Speaker, then drop everything and run to Him, because His Voice is God’s. God “has tired” of our love of cinematics, just as He became incensed at the blood of bulls and incense. Don’t make this another “Nehushtan” that has to be busted up.

 

[planten]

DavidMark, you do not believe that jesus came to life in the tomb. That is what the christians believe but you deny that. You do not have that belief. You have a different theology.

You do not believe that Jesus met his disciples **or he met any one **after the incident of the Crucifixion. We do not see Jesus now. But according to you even his closest friends also did not see him.

In other words, according to Baha’is, Jesus did not meet his friends and did not give any advice to them after Crucifixion. That is what I am trying to get out of you. But you seem to run off on your own lecturing in other (irrelevant) fields.

 

[KathleenGee]

Well I am back…

I think from what DavidMark said, they focus on Spirit.

Planten, your chain of events of Christ’s crucifixion, His death–note that good just people, rose from the dead at the point of His death…and that scientists admit that a lunar eclipse appeared in the sky, the sun blood red, happened on the first Friday in April 3–?, under the reign of Pontius Pilate…

Jesus rose from the dead at dawn that Sunday. He appeared to Mary Magdalene…an angel was known to be at the empty tomb as well, Peter and John came to find the tomb empty…Jesus returned to the Apostles–in His ascended state-- that evening while they were in hiding and afraid…and He gave them the power to forgive sins.

He returned to visit am apostle and another follower on the Road to Emmaus…they did not recognize Him, but they said their hearts were burning within them…and the way He spoke with them about matters of faith was in essence the beginning of the method of bringing others to Christ…not standing on street corners yelling, scaring people,

But Jesus showed these two men how to communicate the Gospel to individuals in a pastoral way, using dialogue, reason, leading one to ponder and reflect on the state of one’s heart…

His Holy Spirit came on Pentecost…the beginning of the Church (The Last supper was the institution of the Eucharist and the priesthood, both sacraments), the night of the Resurrection was the institution of Confession/Reconciliation, another sacrament)…and delivered the apostles from their fear. They came out and spoke to large crowds of people of many languages, and all the people believed them and then believed in Jesus…they began baptizing and laying on of hands, of going out to preach through travelling, many conversions…no killing. Confirmation is receiving a more and deeper indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the local bishop laying hands on the believer for the indwelling. The bishop, who is successor to the apostles and has the same power today that they had then, when he lays hands, he is able to transmit the Holy Spirit. When he lays hands on the priests at ordination, they receive the power to change ordinary bread and wine into the Eucharst…the laying of hands by the bishop. (

When people break away from the Catholic/orthodox laying of hands by their bishops, they have lost the sacrament of the Eucharist, Holy Orders, Confirmation and Reconciliation/Penance/Confession. However, the baptism is a rite they can use…but they don’t realize they are using the Catholic rite of baptism and essentially baptizing their followers into the Catholic church, and usually without any verifiable, legal documents of the actual event, minister, and witnesses.)

I think the Ba Hai separate Christ the Son from the Holy Spirit and see the Holy Spirit alone moving…With the Sacraments, outward signs of Christ’s presence and grace, it is a working of the presence of God the Father through the Son and Holy Spirit…but we as believers see and experience this all as one God…no separation from the Holy Spirit.
God Was and Is and Always Will Be. That is the underlying understanding of Christians.

So again, you need to understand the Gospels from documented, historical sources.
Blessings.

 

[DavidMark]

DavidMark, you do not believe that jesus came to life in the tomb. That is what the christians believe but you deny that. You do not have that belief. You have a different theology.
You do not believe that Jesus met his disciples **or he met any one **after the incident of the Crucifixion. We do not see Jesus now. But according to you even his closest friends also did not see him.
In other words, according to Baha’is, Jesus did not meet his friends and did not give any advice to them after Crucifixion. That is what I am trying to get out of you. But you seem to run off on your own lecturing in other (irrelevant) fields.

Bismillah! Could you at least try to understand?
We DO believe He met and still meets His loved ones in spirit, which is the primary reality, in any case. Many met him in the flesh before He died and didn’t realize what He was!
There are still a lot of that sort, who can not meet His spirit, when it re-appears.
He DID give advice to them, and still does, and always will, but it is primarily Spiritual. You will never hear anything different from me. Why speculate, and interpret things we shouldn’t? It shows people care more about matter than spirit; and matter won’t save you.
All of this about when and how He died detracts from the urgent matters at hand!
Even if there was a physical walk-about, it is irrelvent to us now…but go ahead and hash it out till the next Day of Resurrection.

Is there any Remover of difficulties save God? Say: Praised be God! He is God!
All are His servants and all abide by His bidding. ~The Báb

 

[Jay53]

Bismillah! Could you at least try to understand?
We DO believe He met and still meets His loved ones in spirit, which is the primary reality, in any case. Many met him in the flesh before He died and didn’t realize what He was!
There are still a lot of that sort, who can not meet His spirit, when it re-appears.
He DID give advice to them, and still does, and always will, but it is primarily Spiritual. You will never hear anything different from me. Why speculate, and interpret things we shouldn’t? It shows people care more about matter than spirit; and matter won’t save you.
All of this about when and how He died detracts from the urgent matters at hand!
Even if there was a physical walk-about, it is irrelvent to us now…but go ahead and hash it out till the next Day of Resurrection.

Is there any Remover of difficulties save God? Say: Praised be God! He is God!
All are His servants and all abide by His bidding. ~The Báb

I think what planten is trying to explain to you (and I can’t believe I’m actually explaining a planten post ) is that Jesus’ disciples DID see Jesus PHYSICALLY, NOT JUST IN SPIRIT, AFTER the Crucifixion. This is what is recorded in the Bible; you are just choosing not to believe it. Jesus’ disciples saw Jesus PHYSICALLY (IN THE FLESH), ascend into Heaven.

Of course, at the same time, it is recorded in the Bible that Jesus physically DIED on the cross (not fainted/swooned etc), but planten chooses not to believe that fact.

 

[planten]

I think what planten is trying to explain to you (and I can’t believe I’m actually explaining a planten post ) is that Jesus’ disciples DID see Jesus PHYSICALLY, NOT JUST IN SPIRIT, AFTER the Crucifixion. This is what is recorded in the Bible; you are just choosing not to believe it. Jesus’ disciples saw Jesus PHYSICALLY (IN THE FLESH), ascend into Heaven.

Of course, at the same time, it is recorded in the Bible that Jesus physically DIED on the cross (not fainted/swooned etc), but planten chooses not to believe that fact.

Jay, you are right about my belief and the belief of the Baha;is.

The Baha’is do not believe in physical resurerction of Jesus. I just wasted my time with them. They had admitted it in clear words but I did not understand it. Now I have seen their clear words in post #619. See below:

We do not believe that there was a bodily resurrection after the crucifixion of Christ,

Moreover, their leaders do not have real knowledge. I show some mistaken ideas of their leader Shoghi below to prove that he knew nothing about Quran or Muhammad or Islam. Shoghi gave some bad or wrong translation of a verse of the Quran:

Regarding your question relative to Surih 4:156 of the Qur’án in which Muhammad says that the Jews did not crucify Jesus the Christ, but one like Him; what is meant by this passage is that although the Jews succeeded in destroying the physical body of Jesus, yet they were impotent to destroy the Divine reality in Him.
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendí to an individual believer, March 19, 1938)

In that verse 4:156, there are no words “One like him”. Why did Shougi try to mislead the world about Quran? That was bad work and illegal. Muhammad never said it was “One like him” on the cross. And Muhammad never said that Jews succeeded in destroying the physical body of Jesus. Muhammad never said such a thing. But Shoghi is trying to be a spokesperson for Muhammad. Why??

So Baha’is know nothing about resurrection and about Islamic view of Crucifixtion.

I learnt that these Baha’is had many problems such as bigamy. They do not believe in Bigamy and Bahaullah spoke against more than one wife. But he himself had two wives.

Then Abdul Baha ( son of bahaullah) also had two wives. Why was that??

They had suggested (ruled) that leadership will go to the physical male child only. But Shoghi was not the male child of Abdul Baha (?) or Bahaullah, or at least Shoghi did not have any male issue. So the blessing should be cut of at that point. But they are working hard and preaching their faith which was not well known or well spread in the life time of Bahaullah. That was not fair.

The Teachings of Moses were made available to all Jews in the life time of Moses.
The Teachings of Jesus were made available to all people in the life time of Jesus.
The Teachings of Muhammad were made available to all people in the life time of Muhammad.

Why was it that teachings of Bahaullah were not made available openly in the life time of Bahaillah?? Bahaullah lived a long life. His teachings are now being showered on us.There is no way to check whether he actually said any of those things.

There are some serious problems in Baha’i faith. But let them preach. They have a high uphill task. It is true that the Muslims of the time of Bahaullah were very much misled in their theology. That much is true.

 

[Nine_Two]

I learnt that these Baha’is had many problems such as bigamy. They do not believe in Bigamy and Bahaullah spoke against more than one wife. But he himself had two wives.

Then Abdul Baha ( son of bahaullah) also had two wives. Why was that??

I suspect for the same reason Mohammed said you are only allowed four, but had at least double that.

Good show with the double standards.

 

[planten]

I suspect for the same reason Mohammed said you are only allowed four, but had at least double that.

Good show with the double standards.

You are right. But God allowed that to Muhammad and allowed few (max 4) to other Muslims under some strict rules. It is written in the Quran.

I do not mind if there is something in the sacred books of the Baha’is that Bahaullah was allowed two wives and all other mankind was to have One wife only. Then his son, Abdul Baha should have acted on the order of father and should have had only one wife. But he did not know about it or the order for monogamy came very late to bahaullah.

There are some differences in the order and approach.

 

[Nine_Two]

I find it difficult to believe that you guys restrict what you believe God can do (saying the incarnation is impossible), yet somehow have a God that tells different people they’re allowed to live by different rules.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I think we’ve gotten off-topic. Let’s try to return to the OP’s subject.

I’d like to bring back up what I’ve argued twice before, and which I feel hasn’t really been addressed (planten attempted to, but his argument essentially amounted to “I disagree” and then changing the subject). The Koran argues that there is “no certain knowledge” and only “conjecture” among Christians regarding the crucifixion and what happened afterward…and yet, the majority of orthodox Christian denominations and churches (note the use of the little “o” ) agree wholeheartedly on what happened at the crucifixion: namely, Christ suffered, died, was buried, and rose again.

Regarding the crucifixion itself, all four gospels agree conclusively on several important facts:

• Christ was crucified on Golgotha, also known as Calvary [Matt 27:33; Mark 15:22; Luke 23:33; John 19:17]
• A sign was placed over Christ’s head [Matt 27:37; Mark 15:26; Luke 23:38; John 19:19]
• Jesus was crucified between two thieves [Matt 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32; John 19:18]
• The garment Christ wore was divided and gambled over [Matt 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23-24]
• ** Jesus died on the cross** [Matt 27:50; Mark 15:37; Luke 23:46; John 19:30]

Muslims, on the other hand, have S. 4:157 in their Koran to deal with:

That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. [S. 4:157; Yusuf Ali]

Amazingly enough, while a Baptist, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic and Orthodox can look at the passages I’ve cited and agree on what they mean, we cannot find that in Islam. The majority of Muslims at large, and especially Muslim apologists, cannot even agree on what S. 4:157 means. Some of the most interesting and popular theories include:

• Some believe that God made Judas appear as Christ, and he was crucified instead (an Iranian movie was recently released, in response to Mel Gibson’s Passion, that showed this, and those who support the Gospel of Barnabas also uphold this idea).
• Some believe that one of the disciples volunteered to be made to look like Jesus, and therefore be martyred (Baidawi wrote on this to some degree).
• Some take a more Docetic approach to the literal meaning of the passage and say that the pain, suffering and agony on the crucifixion was simply a big illusion (Yusuf Ali writes on this in his exegesis of the Koran).
• Most popular among Muslims is “the swoon theory,” which says Jesus feinted on the cross, recovered from his wounds, and later woke up (popular Muslim apologist Ahmed Deedat argued this, as does Shabir Ally).
• Some Muslim apologists, recognizing the wealth of theories within Islam regarding the crucifixion, basically summarize that there’s no way to know and we just shouldn’t care.

Therefore it is quite ironic that it is Christians who are accused of having “no certain knowledge” and “conjecture” when the only side that seems to suffer from this is the side of Islam. Again, we Christians must ask - given this information on the certainty of the cross in Christianity compared to the blanket denial in Islam - why do Muslims deny the crucifixion of Christ?

 

[planten]

B W last para:

Therefore it is quite ironic that it is Christians who are accused of having “no certain knowledge” and “conjecture” when the only side that seems to suffer from this is the side of Islam. Again, we Christians must ask - given this information on the certainty of the cross in Christianity compared to the blanket denial in Islam - why do Muslims deny the crucifixion of Christ?

B W, please be reminded that Muslims have no doubt about the certainity of the Cross.

There is no blanket denial of the cross in Islam.

Why do Muslims deny the Crucifixion of Christ?
Well you have been informed quite a few times about that before. I have to tell you samething again. Muslims do not believe that Jesus died on the cross. So they say that the act of Crucifixion was not completed. It was a plan of the enemies of Jesus to kill Jesus on the Cross. They tried it. But It had failed. That plan had failed.

Since Muslims believe that CRucifixion means death on the cross, since the death did not occur, there was no Crucifixion. We believe in the attempted Crucifixion only.

You can dispute that Jesus died on the cross. I will deny that too. So we should agree to differ. But Now please do not say that I did not tell you because this is what I have understood from the Muslim point of view.

Next and the last thing: I tell you that none of the Muslims in the world believe that Jesus died on the cross or in any other way in that area. There are many sects of Muslims. No Muslim believes that Jesus died.

Now you please ask any other Muslim on this forum about your question and try to take their opinion whether Jesus died on the Cross or Not. They will tell you all sorts of reasons ( all sorts of excuses) but none will believe that Jesus was killed. He lived.

 

[wwolverine]

B W, please be reminded that Muslims have no doubt about the certainity of the Cross.

There is no blanket denial of the cross in Islam.

Why do Muslims deny the Crucifixion of Christ?
Well you have been informed quite a few times about that before. I have to tell you samething again. Muslims do not believe that Jesus died on the cross. So they say that the act of Crucifixion was not completed. It was a plan of the enemies of Jesus to kill Jesus on the Cross. They tried it. But It had failed. That plan had failed.

Since Muslims believe that CRucifixion means death on the cross, since the death did not occur, there was no Crucifixion. We believe in the attempted Crucifixion only.

You can dispute that Jesus died on the cross. I will deny that too. So we should agree to differ. But Now please do not say that I did not tell you because this is what I have understood from the Muslim point of view.

Next and the last thing: I tell you that none of the Muslims in the world believe that Jesus died on the cross or in any other way in that area. There are many sects of Muslims. No Muslim believes that Jesus died.

Now you please ask any other Muslim on this forum about your question and try to take their opinion whether Jesus died on the Cross or Not. They will tell you all sorts of reasons ( all sorts of excuses) but none will believe that Jesus was killed. He lived.

Dear Planten

You are absolutely right when you say, No muslims whatever denomination they may belong to, will never accept the Crucifixation of Jesus. The moment they do accept that the Crufifixation did take place as the Christians believe, than they will know that Mohammed was lying. That Islam if false, and which muslim will accept their prophet mohammed to be called a LIAR?

 

[sedonaman]

…
The Teachings of Jesus were made available to all people in the life time of Jesus.
…

And specifically, just what are those teachings according to Islam?

 

[KathleenGee]

Planten,

Get a Catholic approved Bible, go to St. John who was at the crucifixion and read his exact words…see what happened at the moment of Christ’s death…it is very clear.

You are reading a foreign gospel from the Middle East Spin Zone…

And show the approved Gospel of John to the planten group…how many are there in your group…4???

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Get a Catholic approved Bible, go to St. John who was at the crucifixion and read his exact words…see what happened at the moment of Christ’s death…it is very clear.

I already brought that up. Planten claims it wasn’t the same John as the apostle, but refuses to present evidence to substantiate that. In fact his latest response (the part I saw quoted any way) is basically a rehash of what he said earlier when I pointed out he was refusing to address my response to his arguments - he ignores all evidence to the contrary and simply says, “I believe it because I choose to believe it, so there!” It doesn’t bother me because, as I said when I blocked him, those who have “eyes to see” will recognize that only one side is really presenting any coherent argumentation in favor of their position.

 

[KathleenGee]

Planten…

Please…how can your take on the Crucifixion be right when the Koran evolved out of a culture very different than that of Judeo Christianity…and then Islam wants to stake it without any history or relationship except through Hagar, the other wife of Abraham…

Doesn’t make any sense.

And we are going in circles, and I thought I got off a week ago or so, and it is the same o same o…

 

[planten]

Planten…

Please…how can your take on the Crucifixion be right when the Koran evolved out of a culture very different than that of Judeo Christianity…and then Islam wants to stake it without any history or relationship except through Hagar, the other wife of Abraham…

Doesn’t make any sense.

And we are going in circles, and I thought I got off a week ago or so, and it is the same o same o…

Kathleen, the subject boils down to whether Jesus died on the cross or not. If he died then you are right and Quran is wrong. Then Jesus was Crucified.

If Jesus had not died on the cross then you are wrong and Quran is right. Then Jesus was not Crucified.

The Quran tells us that all Jews and Christians believe that Jesus was killed on the cross. (Quran 4:157).

Quran says they ( Jews and Christians) will always believe that Jesus was killed on the cross. (4:159) That Jesus** will be a witness on them (Jews and Christians) on the day of Judgement.** (4:159)

(That means, Jesus son of Mary, will never come back in this world again. He will be a witness on every one on the day of judgement only).

Kathleen, it is not I who is believing these things. It is all Muslims. Pardon.

 

[Nine_Two]

The Koran also says that all Jews worship Ezra (9:30).

We already know the Koran CAN be wrong.