Why Islam denies the crucifixion of Christ

[Booklover]

It’s amazing the things you can find in a Christian forum. You think Muslims view Christian beliefs as a threat to us? No, Kathleen. Not from Christianity, Judaism, or whatever religion for that matter.

" Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion " (Quran 109:6)

If that were true, why so much suppression of the beliefs of others? Why so much violence? Expose those beliefs to the light of day and they are seen for what they really are, the rantings and ravings of a man who didn’t know what the heck he was talking about! Violence and fear is what’s kept Islam alive for 1400 years!

Vickie

 

[sedonaman]

if christs isnt crucified all christianity collapses

That’s correct, and it is what St. Paul taught. So?

islam is not really that into Jesus,we just believe in him…but its not like denying crucifiction is soo central

Just what exactly do you believe about Him?

 

[jakasaki]

QUOTE=Dana_swe;5781205]

its great how they think so,even though we have stronger arguments against them

Please present your “stronger arguments against” us and we’ll be very happy to address them.

we still dont care that much talking about them…

That’s an understatement!!! Muslims are always “talking about” us and our Bible. Isn’t that why islam always look at the Bible to confirm your “false” prophet.

when God want to guide somone He does that,when He doesnt…

God had guided us for thousands and thousands of years. We do not need islam and mohamad to guide us.

we cant help him/her

I for one do not need the help of islam or a false prophet.

And it’s always good manners of any forum when one joins to generally introduce yourself so the members can know a little bit about you when they look at your profile.

And remember Dana_swe, you are in a Catholic Forum. I hope and trust you’ve read the rules of the site.

Welcome and I look forward to your postings!

 

[Dana_swe]

Just what exactly do you believe about Him?

Anything the Koran teaches us,are you interested in what islam says about him or ?

Please present your “stronger arguments against” us and we’ll be very happy to address them.

since im still learning and reading i cant be a “preacher” and present you the arguments against christianity and for islam

but if you watch the christian-muslim dialogues you will see what i mean…few years ago a muslim missionary had a dilaogue here with a christian pastor in a protestant church…that day 2 of the members converted to islam

That’s an understatement!!! Muslims are always “talking about” us and our Bible. Isn’t that why islam always look at the Bible to confirm your “false” prophet.

only when they talk with nonmuslims,…you dont talk about it in islamic forums and among muslims.We do not have any need to bash others like that(sure there are fundamentalists who do that but most muslims are against it)

God had guided us for thousands and thousands of years. We do not need islam and mohamad to guide us.

God has guided people since the creation,but most were always unbelievers,just like today

and your statment is your opinion,just like i know very well the teachings of christianity and i dont se any truth there…thats my personal opinion too

And it’s always good manners of any forum when one joins to generally introduce yourself so the members can know a little bit about you when they look at your profile.

Haha okey then,Im swedish,im 25 years old,i converted to islam 2 years ago,before that i used to be protestant…i didnt have the time to create my profile yet but i will,inshaAllah

And remember Dana_swe, you are in a Catholic Forum. I hope and trust you’ve read the rules of the site.

did i break any rules?

 

[Booklover]

Anything the Koran teaches us,are you interested in what islam says about him or ?

no,im new in islam and i cant present it like that since my knowledge about islam is not that great yet,but if you watch the christian-muslim dialogues you will see what i mean…few years ago a muslim missionary had a dilaogue here with a christian pastor in a protestant church…that day 2 of the members converted to islam

only when they talk with nonmuslims,…you dont talk about it in islamic forums and among muslims.We do not have any need to bash others like that(sure there are fundamentalists who do that but most muslims are against it)

God has guided people since the creation,but most were always unbelievers,just like today

and your statment is your opinion,just like i know very well the teachings of christianity and i dont se any truth there…thats my personal opinion too

Haha okey then,Im swedish,im 25 years old,i converted to islam 2 years ago,before that i used to be protestant…i didnt have the time to create my profile yet but i will,inshaAllah

did i break any rules?

Well, you’re not making any sense! First you talk about “stronger arguments” and then claim you don’t know that much about Islam so can’t clarify what you stated.

Is it smart to join a religion you know so little about even after 2 years? Do you expect us to take you seriously?

Vickie

 

[Dana_swe]

If that were true, why so much suppression of the beliefs of others? Why so much violence? Expose those beliefs to the light of day and they are seen for what they really are, the rantings and ravings of a man who didn’t know what the heck he was talking about! Violence and fear is what’s kept Islam alive for 1400 years!

the Koran says “there is no compulsion in religion”(2:256 ),…we never had any forced conversions,crusaders etc,which is something you can not claim about your religion

 

[sedonaman]

Anything the Koran teaches us,are you interested in what islam says about him or ?

I would like to know exactly what you believe that Jesus taught [or if he taught anything], not some general statement like, “Anything the Koran teaches” or “He is one of the prophets.”

 

[Booklover]

If that were true, why so much suppression of the beliefs of others? Why so much violence? Expose those beliefs to the light of day and they are seen for what they really are, the rantings and ravings of a man who didn’t know what the heck he was talking about! Violence and fear is what’s kept Islam alive for 1400 years!

the Koran says “there is no compulsion in religion”(2:256 ),…we never had any forced conversions,crusaders etc,which is something you can not claim about your religion

Yes, Muslims always bring up that misleading phrase!



- “*Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” *Suras 9 and 5 are the last “revelations” that Muhammad handed down.
*“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them…” *Prayer and charity are among the Five Pillars of Islam, as salat and zakat. See below.
- (Continued from above) “*But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion” *This confirms that Muhammad is speaking of conversion to Islam. - *“And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion be only for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.” *The key phrase is to fight until “religion be only for Allah.”

Vickie

 

[lost_wanderer_1]

It’s because they are taught, either at a young age or at conversion, that they shouldn’t even bother.

Unfortunately, I see some of this on CAF. It is often frustrating when I debate Muslims here, and I ask if they have ever studied the Trinity or the Church Fathers or other important aspects of Christian theology and history, and they confess they have not. Frustrating because while many of the Christians who debate Muslims here make some effort to understand the different aspects of the faith, it seems that there is not much of this coming from the other side.

It’s because they can’t handle the TRUTH.

 

[jakasaki]

If that were true, why so much suppression of the beliefs of others? Why so much violence? Expose those beliefs to the light of day and they are seen for what they really are, the rantings and ravings of a man who didn’t know what the heck he was talking about! Violence and fear is what’s kept Islam alive for 1400 years!

the Koran says “there is no compulsion in religion”(2:256 ),…**we never had any forced conversions,crusaders etc,which is something you can not claim about your **religion

You need to study up on islamic history before you make the claim of the statement above in bold.

 

[dzheremi]

Exactly, Jakasaki! Islam has forced conversions to thank for its expansion outside of Arabia. Read some non-Muslim accounts of how Islam came to the broader Middle East and you’ll learn that Islam’s “no compulsion in religion” is meaningless, because “compulsion” means something different to Muslims than to the rest of the world. According to Islam, so long as you are allowed to continue being alive, you are not being coerced. Nevermind if they extract a tribute from you in the most humiliating way possible (because that’s what the Qur’an tells them to do)…you’re still technically alive, aren’t you? So what’s the problem? You should be HAPPY and THANKFUL for the beneficience of the Islamic state, you kaffir!

Dana, you are still a recent convert to Islam. You have not had nearly as much indoctrination into Islamic reasoning as Muslims who are born into it and cannot imagine anything they’ve ever been taught being false or self-serving. Please research NON-MUSLIMS’ accounts of how non-Muslims were treated after the expansion of Islam into the levant and north Africa. They would know better what happened to their own people than Islamic apologists would.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

(Part 1/2)

Serapion (191-211 CE) was commenting…

I thought it was Eusebius?

Eusebius also said about the ‘apocryphal’ writings…

If you are going to try to cover for yourself, at least admit the error, and not try to pretend that no one will notice. Again, honesty in apologetics.

" Understand that the apocryphal writings are not really written by those to whom they are ascribed, that many faulty elements have been introduced into them, and that it requires infinite discretion to look for gold in the midst of dirt " (Jerome, letter to Laeta c.403 CE)…[etc]

It might be best to fully understand the context of those quotations and what they are REALLY saying. For one, Jerome actually wrote:

Let her avoid all apocryphal writings, and if she is led to read such not by the truth of the doctrines which they contain but out of respect for the miracles contained in them; let her understand that they are not really written by those to whom they are ascribed, that many faulty elements have been introduced into them, and that it requires infinite discretion to look for gold in the midst of dirt. [Jerome, Letter CVII to Laeta, 12; emphasis mine]

In any case, what all these men are saying, first and foremost, is that these writings are heretical. Jerome argues that one has to dig deep to “find gold among dirt” to condemn these writings more, whereas Augustine and Isidore admit there is some truth among the falsehood - this does not mean it is entirely truth, and all three of these men would be shocked to find you here using them to support that argument. There’s an old saying, “There’s some truth in legends,” but this does not mean the legends are entirely or by a large margin factual.

Incidentally, are you getting these quotes from secondhand sources?

" We have written in the “Zabur” (Psalms), after the “Zikr” (Torah): ‘the righteous shall inherit the earth’ " (Quran 21:105)

On the other hand, the NT scribes deliberately scoured through the Jewish Tanakh to find verses that could relate to Jesus in any way possible.

" I was encouraged above all by the authoritative publications of the Evangelists and Apostles, in which we read much taken from the Old Testament but not found in our (Septuagint) manuscripts. For example, ‘Out of Egypt have I called My son’ (Matt 2:15), ‘For he shall be called a Nazarene’ (Matt 2:23), ‘They shall look on him whom they pierced’ (John 19:37), ‘Rivers of living water shall flow out of his belly’ (John 7:38), and many other passages. The first passage is in Hosea, the second in Isaiah, the third in Zechariah, the fourth in Proverbs " (Jerome, preface to his Vulgate translation of Torah c.395 CE)

Show me where Matt 2:23 is in Isaiah, and John 7:38 in Proverbs, as Jerome claimed.

Your argument has several problems:

• Muslims have cited that passage on this forum before, but it fails in addressing the issue because it is nothing compared to, say, the twelve OT citations found in Romans 9 from several different books - let alone the EXTENSIVE quotations from the OT found throughout the NT. Likewise, it is not relevant to confirming who Mohammad was, or showing that he was indeed foretold in the OT or NT. On the other hand, the apostles regularly cited OT scripture to confirm whom Jesus was. Again, you do not find this in the Koran.
• Falling back on Jerome and demanding where he cited certain passages is again appealing to authority, as if Jerome is the only source for OT citation - it is also a borderline false dilemma, for you assume as if we can’t verify what Jerome wrote then there will be no OT citations in the NT. If you want to address the issue in a relevant manner, go to the Gospels, Acts and the epistles and read the OT citations given by the writers and apostles, all of which are cited for you at the bottom of the page in most scholarly Bibles.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

(Part 2/2)

Only independent sources would add anything new to an argument, whereas dependent ones (eg. Muslims quoting hadiths, Christians quoting Church fathers) only serve as circular reasoning. Moreover, this Greek philosopher was a 2nd century witness.

I don’t quite follow. Are not then the Bible and Koran independent sources? And hadiths/Church Fathers only providing circular reasoning? Then why are we even discussing this very issue if we cannot cite contemporary sources or scripture? In fact, that’s a bit hypocritical - for you are citing contemporary sources against Christianity, yet claim that citing Church Fathers or hadith are circular reasoning - does it not therefore stand that citing anti-Christian sources from the same time period also serve as circular reasoning?

Another famous philosopher’s view on Christians of his time (3rd century),
" How can these people be thought worthy of forbearance? In choosing impieties and atheism, they have preferred their fellow creatures " (Porphyry of Tyre, Philosophy from Oracles).

Yes, another neoplatonic pagan who would be condemned by Mohammad as well. In any case, I do not see how his opinion is relevant to the matter.

12 verses from John 7:53-8:11 is “minor”, and another 12 verses of Mark 16:9-20 is “minor”. I guess you would consider this “minor” too; a 5th century manuscript, Codex Washingtonianus…

Congratulations on again entering into dishonest apologetics, for you have distorted my original words. Let’s see what the original context of “minor” was in that post:

The majority of textual variants in the manuscripts are by and large grammatical, while others include spelling errors or adding minor words such as “now” or “then” within the sentence - all of which hold no bearing on theological matters.

I was indeed talking about minor textual variants, like grammatical changes or minor words, again all of which hold no bearing on Christianity’s theological beliefs. You go to the Codex Washingtonianus and cite a variant which has been known to Christians for a long time…and again, as I stated earlier with Vaticanus and Sinaiticus, the Codex Washingtonianus is not the sole source of reference for Christian scripture, and a textual variant unique to this manuscript is irrelevant to the entire textual history of the Bible.

No wonder a certain scribe let out his frustration on the left hand margin of Heb 1:3 main text in Codex Vaticanus,
“amaqestate kai kake, afeV ton palaion, mh metapoiei” meaning “Fool and knave, can’t you leave the old reading alone, and not alter it!”

Yes, I am aware of that note. Again, it is irrelevant to the entire textual history. There are no major theological contradictions among the various manuscripts.

A desperate last-ditch effort; tu quoque argument?

Your entire argument has been, in fact, a tu quoque, because you seek to divert from Islam’s denial of the crucifixion by focusing instead on textual variants - in fact, you have not touched on the subject of the crucifixion at all. On the other hand, I am addressing what you have presented, which is seeking to glorify Islam by pointing out the flaws in the textual history of the Bible. On the other hand, the Koran has the same textual variances and history as the Bible. It is not a “desperate last-ditch effort” (I don’t think any one could really think it as that), but rather a call for consistency.

 

[seraphime2008]

so the killers did a good deed? they killed Jesus,he wanted them to do that? so why dont you celebrate the killers in the same way that you celebrate the cross?!?

By the same line of logic u should:

• cheer that there were pagans allover arabia at the
  time of Muhammad, so he can be praised and ascended the “prophethood”
  -cheer all the wickedness of any people, because this situation will bring heroes

 

[Javl]

I do not know why anyone bothers to explain anything to Muslims or even try to dialogue with them. From my experience, they refuse to listen and dismiss any facts, comments,
or corrections as superfluous rantings from Christians. They belong to “my mind is made
up, don’t confuse me with facts” genera. They are so brainwashed that it is impossible to
penetrate it with the truth. The best we can do is to pray for them.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I do not know why anyone bothers to explain anything to Muslims or even try to dialogue with them. From my experience, they refuse to listen and dismiss any facts, comments,
or corrections as superfluous rantings from Christians. They belong to “my mind is made
up, don’t confuse me with facts” genera. They are so brainwashed that it is impossible to
penetrate it with the truth. The best we can do is to pray for them.

Paul OKs the admonishing of a divisive man at least twice (Titus 3:10-11), since we are expected to preach and spread the Truth even in the face of deception and lies. We can’t expect to see immediate conversions like you see in Acts, for sometimes it has to sit in a person’s mind and let it settle. It was, after all, the gentle debate of a Christian I met at the mosque that made me realize I didn’t know as much about Christianity as I did, and eventually led to my return to Christ.

 

[ferdie]

Anything the Koran teaches us,are you interested in what islam says about him or ?

since im still learning and reading i cant be a “preacher” and present you the arguments against christianity and for islam
**
but if you watch the christian-muslim dialogues you will see what i mean…few years ago a muslim missionary had a dilaogue here with a christian pastor in a protestant church…that day 2 of the members converted to islam**

only when they talk with nonmuslims,…you dont talk about it in islamic forums and among muslims.We do not have any need to bash others like that(sure there are fundamentalists who do that but most muslims are against it)

God has guided people since the creation,but most were always unbelievers,just like today

and your statment is your opinion,just like i know very well the teachings of christianity and i dont se any truth there…thats my personal opinion too

Haha okey then,Im swedish,im 25 years old,i converted to islam 2 years ago,before that i used to be protestant…i didnt have the time to create my profile yet but i will,inshaAllah

did i break any rules?

Welcome to the forum!
I’ve heard enough muslim-christian debate. I find muslim’s understanding of christianity to be defective. Are you one of the two who converted?

 

[jakasaki]

~ snip ~

…when God want to guide somone He does that,when He doesnt…

Only the god of islam allah does this - guide whom he wants and does not guide whom he does not want.

 

[seraphime2008]

Only the god of islam allah does this - guide whom he wants and does not guide whom he does not want.

And if I m not mistaken Allah has predestined some to hell and some to paradise? this is Allah that seemed to make his creatures to be just whatever he wants them to be…

 

[planten]

The topic is Crucifixion of Jesus. Every one knows that according to the Jewish law, any one dying on the tree (cross) was a cursed person. jesus was a 100% perfect Jew. So was his mother. Jesus was a practicing Jew. He knew the law and he had come to uphold the law of Moses. He did not like to be killed on the cross.

So Jesus prayed to his God earnestly in the garden before his arrest so that the cup may be avoided.

**Mathew 26

36Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.
37And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.
38Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
39And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. **

Luke 22
39And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him.
40And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation.
41And he was withdrawn from them about a stone’s cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

His enemies had made a very bad plan against him, i.e. to kill Jesus on the cross (and not in any other way.). That plan was to prove that Jesus was a cursed person. So he could not be a man from God. (Quran 3:54)

Quran teaches us that Allah accepted the prayer of Jesus and thwarted the plan of his enemies. Allah told Jesus that he will die a natural death and will be raised in ranks to Allah (Quran 3:55). That meant Jesus will not die on the cross. That is why Muslims believe that even though Jesus was put on the cross and suffered much, but he was brought down very quickly (after about 3 hours only) and he was alive when he was brought down from the cross.

Then his legs were not broken. He was put in a very airy type of room and looked after. He was removed from that room very soon for extra safety to another better place. He recovered very soon and walked about secretly and met his friends…

The reason why we Muslims do not believe in the Crucifixtion of Jesus is because he did not die on the cross. We believe that his prayer was accepted. We believe that his enemies were defeated. Their plan to kill Jesus on the cross failed. It was a miracle for the sake of Jesus. That is what we Muslims believe. It is all written in the Quran.

The verse Luke 22:43 also supports us:

**43And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. **

That angel who appeared, consoled Jesus and told him not to worry. The angel told Jesus that his prayer was accepted. The angel did not come to tell Jesus that his prayer was not accepted. The angel came with good news, not bad news against the will of Jesus.