Why Islam denies the crucifixion of Christ

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Paul OKs the admonishing of a divisive man at least twice (Titus 3:10-11), since we are expected to preach and spread the Truth even in the face of deception and lies. We can’t expect to see immediate conversions like you see in Acts, for sometimes it has to sit in a person’s mind and let it settle. It was, after all, the gentle debate of a Christian I met at the mosque that made me realize I didn’t know as much about Christianity as I did, and eventually led to my return to Christ. 🙂
Praise God for your return and God Bless that Christian. You’re correct in your statement
and I should know better. I have been witnessing to JWs for almost 40 years and it does
take a while for the truth to settle in. The really important part is to dent or penatrate that
armor of falsity that they wear. I will be patient. Thank you and God Bless.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
And if I m not mistaken Allah has predestined some to hell and some to paradise? this is Allah that seemed to make his creatures to be just whatever he wants them to be…
If this is true this is where Islamic theology departs from Christianity on the understanding of God and his attributes. We believe that everyone get equals chance with God. The ones who are lost are those stubborn unbelievers even after they understand/listen to what God wants of them.

I heard explanation by Muslims that it’s more about the stubborn ones that Allah predestine to hell, similar to our ‘you who have ears do not hear, have eyes do not see’. I think it was false explanation though as the Quranic verse is quite clear that Allah did choose certain people to purposely destined for hell. Maybe some words are lost in the translation, I don’t know. Like I said, if Islam actually believes that God purposely destines certain category of people to hell, then it is a big departure from Christian belief of what God does.
 
Planten,

Regarding being cursed to a tree, please read the posts #120, 121. It was written by a church father hundreds of years before Mohammed. Its premises is held the same by Christians at Pentecost as of today. No change, no contradiction.

The Jews did not accept Christ, nor did Mohammed. The Catholic Church holds 2,000 years of historical documents, Mohammed does not.
 
What the Qu’ran teaches about Jesus is exactly what the Gnostics teach. Both Islam and
the Gnostics overlook, or ignore, the fact that one of the Roman soldiers pierced Jesus
side with a spear to make sure that He was dead. This why the soldiers did not break His legs since he was already dead ( Jn 19:34 ). Also there were many people at the Crucifixion as witnesses to His death. All this has been reported in the Roman annals of Jerusalem of that time.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
**The topic is Crucifixion of Jesus.
**
You are not one to lecture others about staying on topic.
Every one knows that …
This is a fallacy of reasoning. Not everyone knows anything.
So Jesus prayed to his God earnestly in the garden before his arrest so that the cup may be avoided.
I told you before that all the cups were left back in the room of the Last Supper so the women could wash them along with the other dishes.
**His enemies had made a very bad plan against him, i.e. to kill Jesus on the cross (and not in any other way.). That plan was to prove that Jesus was a cursed person. So he could not be a man from God. (Quran 3:54)
Quran teaches us that Allah accepted the prayer of Jesus and thwarted the plan of his enemies. Allah told Jesus that he will die a natural death and will be raised in ranks to Allah (Quran 3:55). That meant Jesus will not die on the cross. That is why Muslims believe that even though Jesus was put on the cross and suffered much, but he was brought down very quickly (after about 3 hours only) and he was alive when he was brought down from the cross.
Then his legs were not broken. He was put in a very airy type of room and looked after. He was removed from that room very soon for extra safety to another better place. He recovered very soon and walked about secretly and met his friends…
The reason why we Muslims do not believe in the Crucifixtion [sic] of Jesus is because he did not die on the cross. We believe that his prayer was accepted. We believe that his enemies were defeated. Their plan to kill Jesus on the cross failed. It was a miracle for the sake of Jesus. That is what we Muslims believe. It is all written in the Quran.
The verse Luke 22:43 also supports us:
43And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
That angel who appeared, consoled Jesus and told him not to worry. The angel told Jesus that his prayer was accepted. The angel did not come to tell Jesus that his prayer was not accepted. The angel came with good news, not bad news against the will of Jesus.**
:rotfl: Ron Howard should fire Dan Brown and hire you.
 
There are many Muslims who want to leave Islam and either find their own beliefs or become Christian, but can’t for fear of death.

When I read Planten’s remarks, these simply come across as rationalizations because they refuse to hear the truth. I don’t know why they come here other than with hopes of ‘plantin’ seeds of Islam.
 
There are many Muslims who want to leave Islam and either find their own beliefs or become Christian, but can’t for fear of death.

When I read Planten’s remarks, these simply come across as rationalizations because they refuse to hear the truth. I don’t know why they come here other than with hopes of ‘plantin’ seeds of Islam.
Yes, and Islam is supposedly a “religion of peace”. As for Planten, he reminds me a lot
of Latter Day Saints and the Book Of Mormon. The BOM and the Qu’ran were both written after the Bible by men who both say they were given this “new revelation” by God. Both
books contradict the Bible ( which is the PROVEN WORD OF GOD ) which means that God has contradicted Himself !! Here I always thought that He wouldn’t and couldn’t
contradict Himself. Oh well, back to the drawing board.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
… Both books contradict the Bible…
Islam Contradicts Itself :

Introduction
Koran and Judeo-Christian Apostles
Koran and Judeo-Christian Scriptures
Koran Contradicts Judeo-Christianity (Part 1)
Koran Contradicts Judeo-Christianity (Part 2)
Koran Contradicts Judeo-Christianity (Part 3)
Koran Contradicts Judeo-Christianity (Part 4)
Another Gospel and Explaining the Success of Islam (Part 1)
Explaining the Success of Islam (Part 2)
Explaining the Success of Islam (Part 3)
Islam Conclusions
See also, Critique of Islam
 
He did not like to be killed on the cross.
Did not like it? He expected it.

“Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death, and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again.” [Matthew 20:18-19]

“You know that after two days is the Passover, and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified.” [Matthew 26:2]

Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." [Luke 24:46-47]
So Jesus prayed to his God earnestly in the garden before his arrest so that the cup may be avoided… [Mathew 26:36-39 quoted, along with Luke 22:39-44]
Yes, Christ did pray regarding the cup of crucifixion to pass Him by. But what was His prayer? “Nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.” This was a prime example of Christ’s two-natures and two-wills, also known as the hypostatic union - He was fully man and fully God. His human nature was fearful of death, and His human will sought a way out; but His divine nature knew what the crucifixion would mean for all of mankind, and His divine will submitted to the will of the Father. What was His Father’s will? That He should be crucified, so that there could be remission of sins for all nations. That is the true context of the text entire. It is also worthy to note that right after these passages Christ is arrested, wrongfully accused, tortured, and crucified - and He embraced His fate in that regard.
Quran teaches us that Allah accepted the prayer of Jesus and thwarted the plan of his enemies. Allah told Jesus that he will die a natural death and will be raised in ranks to Allah (Quran 3:55). That meant Jesus will not die on the cross. That is why Muslims believe that even though Jesus was put on the cross and suffered much, but he was brought down very quickly (after about 3 hours only) and he was alive when he was brought down from the cross.

Then his legs were not broken…
You are playing pick and choose with the scripture. What does scripture say after it says Christ’s legs were not broken? Let’s review.

But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. [John 19:33-34]

They didn’t leave Jesus alone - they stabbed Him to make sure He was dead. Your assertion also leaves out what every single Gospel says: that Jesus died on the cross.

And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. [Matt 27:50]

And Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed His last. [Mark 15:37]

…Having said this, He breathed His last. [Luke 23:46]

…And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit. [John 19:30]

If you are going to quote Christian scripture to prove your point, at least quote it with exegesis and not eisegesis.
[Luke 22:43 quoted]

That angel who appeared, consoled Jesus and told him not to worry. The angel told Jesus that his prayer was accepted. The angel did not come to tell Jesus that his prayer was not accepted. The angel came with good news, not bad news against the will of Jesus.
No, the angel encouraged Him for what was to follow, which is exactly what followed in scripture: Jesus was arrested and brought to the Romans and crucified.

There is absolutely, positively no scriptural support for your assertions. The only way you can possibly come to these conclusions is to grab a few passages and distort their meaning to prove your presupposition…which is exactly what you’ve done.
 
If this is true this is where Islamic theology departs from Christianity on the understanding of God and his attributes. We believe that everyone get equals chance with God. The ones who are lost are those stubborn unbelievers even after they understand/listen to what God wants of them.

I heard explanation by Muslims that it’s more about the stubborn ones that Allah predestine to hell, similar to our ‘you who have ears do not hear, have eyes do not see’. I think it was false explanation though as the Quranic verse is quite clear that Allah did choose certain people to purposely destined for hell. Maybe some words are lost in the translation, I don’t know. Like I said, if Islam actually believes that God purposely destines certain category of people to hell, then it is a big departure from Christian belief of what God does.
Funny, Catholics don’t know their own doctrine of pre-destination from their “Doctors of the Church”:

Augustine commenting on the Original Sin, " Our will, insofar as it is ours, and not God’s, can merely do evil and desire evil "

Virtue can be done only through the grace of God. And who will receive this divine grace? Only the Elect, chosen by God before the creation of universe (1Peter 1:2, Eph 1:4&11, 2Thess 2:13, 2Tim 1:9, Rom 8:29)

" God alone knows the number of His Elect. Only the smaller number of men are saved " (Thomas Aquinas)

The doctrine of free-will of Pelagius was condemned at Council of Ephesus in 431, and Augustine won.

To sum up:- the whole future membership of heaven has been irrevocably fixed from all eternity. 😉
 
To sum up:- the whole future membership of heaven has been irrevocably fixed from all eternity. 😉
True because God is outside of time and space but you can’t find God says in the Bible that he purposely destined certain people to hell.
 
The question of destiny or predestination is a very old and difficult one. None have been able to solve it. No one has said the last word on it. In islam it is advised not to discuss this subject because it has no answer. The philosophers and the theologians have not been able to solve the riddle of destiny. The prophet Muhammad forbade us to debate on this subject.

I am not sure that the church has any real answer to the riddle of destiny.

Islam is a balanced religion, not inclined to any extreme (Ummat e wast). such as:
  1. Islam stresses on the faith and good deeds (both). It stresses that we will be saved by Grace alone. But it also stresses on Beliefs first. Then after the belief, Islam gives most importance to the performance of good deeds according to the laws provided. So faith and deeds are both covered.
  2. Islam allows personal possessions and does not support complete collective properties, like there were in Communism. But at the same time, while islam supports private property, it exhorts every one (compulsorily) to give away part of their wealth towards collective funds, for the poor.
  3. Islam does not depend on the Sun only or the Moon only (as some may think so). The seasonal festivals and some prayers are arranged by the Lunar calendar. But five daily prayers are organised by the rising and setting of the Sun.
  4. All prayers are not collective. Some prayers are individual. But all prayers are not individual. There are definitely compulsory collective prayers which cannot be perfomed singularly. At the same time, there are private prayers (nawafil) which cannt be performed collectively.
  5. No one is to kill any innocent person. But it does not mean that every one is free to do as they like, even creating disturbance in the land.
  6. No one is to be oppressed just for the sake of beliefs only. Every one is free to believe what they like and to adopt any religion one likes… But peaceful propagation of all religions (Jihad) is allowed.
  7. About destiny also, there are verses in support of the free will of a person to do as he likes. Every one is himself/herself responsible for their destiny. But there are other verses in the Quran which support the belief that God makes every one do things. Or God knows what a person will do. So it is all done by the will (Knowledge) of God. That does not mean that God presses some one to do something.
  8. If some one says that he will go to London next day, surely he will do so. It is likely that he would go. But it is never 100% sure to happen because the person does not know what may befall him/her next day.
  9. In Islam, we are to do our best. We are to do the good things and leave the result to God. It is not right that we do not do anything and keep sitting idle that God will surely feed us. It would be wrong for us to sit idle and hope that God will come with a Lota (Potful of water) for our ablutions (Wudhu) and God will lead us in prayers then we will pray otherwise we will not pray. That would be wrong.
  10. Good example is that we do everything that we like and when it comes to praying few times a day, we are reluctant and taking shelter behind pre-destination. We smoke whole day when we like. We eat all day when we like, many times, and then think of the drinking and dancing sessions where lot of time is wasted. But when it comes to the rememberance of the Creator God, we are lazy and we try to find excuses.
  11. I remember a good story about this pre-destination. Some philosopher saw a poorly saint in rags sitting on the sand by the road side, and decided to pose the question of destiny to that saint (fakir).
The fakir told the philosopher to lift one foot from the ground. The philosopher lifted one foot and stood on one leg for while.

After a while the saint (fakir) asked the philosopher to lift up the other foot too.

The philosopher said that he could not do that. The saint said, “That is the answer to your question of capability (will) or pre-destination.”
  1. I forgot to mention a few more instances of the mild (middle way) beliefs. We Muslims believe in the body and the spirit (both) We strive for the good ness of body and spirit.
  2. We look for the well being of this world and the next world (both). We do not want all goodness in this world and nothing in the next world. We also do not want everything good in the next world only and nothing good in this world.
  3. We believe in the seen things as well the unseen things.(both). We never say that we will believe only in things which are seen and observed.
  4. In Quran we have two types of commands, the very basic most important (Muhkamat) and those which may be interpretted in various ways ( not direct commands) =(Mutashabihat). They may be like parables.
    And so on, the list may be quite long. It is said in the Quran that Allah has made this nation (Muslim) as a medium way nation (2:143)
 
Since when did this thread become “Why Islam denies predestination” :confused:
 
… It is said in the Quran that Allah has made this nation (Muslim) as a medium way nation (2:143)
It is also written in the Quran, "that all nations who should not have acknowledged Muslims’ authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon whoever they could find and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Muslim who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.” – Tripoli’s ambassador to London in response to Thomas Jefferson and John Adams.
 
planten:

Predestination is a heretical teaching and does not exist. Although God does know who
will damn themselve to hell ( since He exists outside of time ), He leaves the choice of eternal bliss with Him or eternal damnation with Satan up to us. He has given us the
right to choose our own destiny.

If God has decided who is to be in heaven with Him and who is to be condemned, then
what is the use of woshiping Him, or believing in Him? Why be Muslim, Christian,
Bhuddist, Hindu, etc.? Since we don’t know where we will end up, we can do anything
we like. A murderer of hundreds can end up in heaven and a saint on earth can end up in hell. Why bother with prayers, confessing sins, worship, etc.? It would make no sense.
This can be why Muhammed forbade the discussion. He knew that many would leave
Islam.

Rest assured, my friend, that the decision of Heaven or Hell is yours alone to make.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
Planten,

You share good aspects of the purpose of religion – to find answers to the meaning of life, ourselves and our existence, our relationship to others…the world’s religions focus on these very same points, and oftentimes with the same reflections…

But where Islam does not follow sync is when it denies historical and anthropological documents of both Judaism and Catholicism of both deposits of faith and people, and goes to war to subjugate over the entire world through the sword, polygamy, taqqiyre, and enslavement through dhimmitude and the child tax. Then it commits evil against its neighbor.

To use the name of God to slaughter, rape, plunder, enslave, to prevent members from adequately understanding others beliefs, you are being a slave. And enslavement is what the crucifixion of Christ broke for those who believe in Him.
 
About predestination, we studied this in the older grades, but God gave all people a free will.

We cannot judge another person and assume by their present behavior where they ‘will end up’. Afterall, many of us have seen such people go through a great change of attitude and change their ways.

Reflecting on my own self, and experienced being judge by another, there are times I caught my self ‘in the act’, along with the observer(s)…but what they did not witness, was my immediate repentance. But they continued to hold me in that sin. Get it?

Also St. Thomas Aquinas and St. John Chrysostom didn’t have all the answers, and that is where we follow the Church in the day to day practices of our faith. It was the Franciscans who assumed Mary was born without sin, but St. Thomas said she was…St. John C could be pretty condemning of his language towards the Jews of his time that contradict the spirit of the Church, that the Jewish race was and always will be God’s chosen.

When it comes to predestination, Catholics need to follow the spirit of the Church in total.

Afterall, it is the unjust that purify the faith of the just.
 
Regarding Pelagianism, and St. Augustine’s remarks, you have to take him in context.

Pelagianism is essentially coming to some theological reflection with a final detour getting there ,… using whimsy.

St. Augustine had some doozies as well…Before he --finally-- became a Christian, he was very promiscuous before and involved in some cult that practiced birth control. This experience carried over into his theological life after conversion. A secular anti-Catholic pointed it out to me as proof the Catholic Church was full of it…he wrote an embarrassing ‘theological reflection’ defying science, --which they didn’t know of at that time either-- of how to tell if a woman is pregnant, or in using an object with a string that swings back and forth over her, to determine the sex of her child. St. Augustine’s legacy to people who want to find anything ridiculous has some goodies.

It is a working of grace that we receive faith…but it also involves the action of a free will with pure intent – to love God for His sake…Christ said many are called but few are chosen…and He also said we must ask for faith…so…

And going back to my original point of not judging others, when it comes to us living out our salvation day to day, it is better to let God be God.

To understand what the Church teaches – inspite of the excesses of all its individual members and theologians, who survived the Devil’s advocates, you have to spend your time drawing on the Councils, and the present Vatican II Council documents provide you the summation of 2,000 years of the church pronouncements and spirit. The Council of the present time is the Church’s highest degree of truth because it puts everything into proper context. Otherwise it is picking a bone of contention…ruff ruff.
 
Kathleen:

It seems that once again we are either being ignored or they don’t have an answer for us.
This is typical of these “religions” that attack the Catholic Church. They know that they
are wrong and can’t win. God Bless.

Len

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
And here I thought it was those wascawwy Cathwics playing their “clever games” again.
 
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