Why Islam denies the crucifixion of Christ

[KathleenGee]

Planten,

What you call ‘useless’ information is orthodox, documented – meaning historical fact, catechetical information – what people are formallly and publicly taught in our parishes.

You have various people sharing with you the reality of Christ’s crucifixion, the references, the use of reason in academic study and there is never any response.

We can tell you just as Christ was crucified on the cross, the sun rises from the East…both are facts, but you don’t understand, simply because you will not to understand. Willing not to understand is a form of belligerent pride…

We are Not the People of the Book…the book is not some document placed on a shelf, taken down, read, put away. The Bible is Salvation History of the Jewish people that was fulfilled in Jesus Christ…the Bible contains the Living Word of God…that is incarnated…meaning we are His extensions…and it is the work of our salvation to comply and be formed by His Word and Sacraments.

We can communicate with other non-Catholic people, and many times they are not even on Catholic Answers…and they can understand and respond and question. So I find the continual redundant asking the same questions a form of takkiyre…

So why bother repeating yourself and feigning a desire to dialogue? BTW, I just heard the 6 Imams won a settlement…sue sue sue…they feigned a big stunt to scare people on a passenger jet, the people reported it…so they sued…now the government is concerned people will be too afraid to report suspicious behavior for fear of being sued…

Could we pull stunts in the world of Islam? Could we share our faith with Muslims over there? To me it is another stunt to keep asking the same questions, people keep answering you in various ways, and then you just don’t get it…takkiyre.

 

[planten]

Then, if you do, why don’t you answer our questions?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Javl, What is your main question. One at a time please. And it better be some sensible valid question because people here are posting “If Muhammad existed.” It should be some rational valid question. It should not be something for which church (bible) or chrstians could also be blamed. Welcome.

 

[planten]

Be careful. I see you need a copy of the Islam-to-English Dictionary since Muslims use the same vocabulary that has different meanings. Other words we are awaiting clarification include:

“Peace”
“Justice”
“Defensive”, as in “defensive war”
“Messiah”
“Prophet”
“Jihad”
“Compulsion”, as in “no compulsion in religion”
“Friends”
“Allies”
“Abrogation”

etc.

“Peace” = Islam, real Peace without wars. Comfort for body and soul.

“Justice” = “Adl” = Most important, more than just Love (affair.)

“Defensive”, “Difaa’a” =as in “defensive war” = Defensive war is the one which has to be fought to protect oneself. It is a war which is pressed upon some people, like the pagans of Makkah did upon the newly formed Muslim state of Madinah.

“Messiah” = " Masih" =The anointed. Also the one who travels a lot.

“Prophet”= “Nabi” = A one who receives messages from Allah and makes prophesies depending on the those messages that he recieves from God. He is a man of God.

“Jihad” = “Jihad” =Struggle and effort to spread goodness, striving in the way of Allah in various ways to establish and support truth. It is purely without weapons unless some war is imposed upon Muslims faith.

“Compulsion”, = "ikrah’= as in “no compulsion in religion” = Compulsion is kind of tyranny, Fitnah, oppression, persecution, pressing some one to do something against his will.

“Friends” = “Khaleel” =In Arabic, the word for friend is “Khaleel”, not wali. Wali is a guardian or supporter or ally. Some Muslims have been using the word friend for wali. That is not correct.
“Allies” = “Aulia” =That is a word to be used for supporters and guradians, in Arabic, it is called “Aulia” which is plural of “wali”. Friendliness is found in it but it is not to called friends. In Muslim marriage, the bride has a “Wali”. That is not her friend.

“Abrogation” = “Tanseekh” = Abrogation would be to make something null and void, to make something in-effective, invalid. = to strike out some written matter.

You forgot to include the word 'Comabatant disbeliever" or “Hostile disbeliever” i.e. called Kaafir in Arabic.

I am not hostile at all. I believe in Love for all and Hatred for none. I have just tried to explain a few words as put up be sedonaman. No hard feelings, please.

 

[planten]

The Jihad for Muslims today is to be exactly like it was at the time of Moses in Egypt or at the time of Jesus in kana’an (The Jewish holy land.). Moses a.s. or Jesus did not take up any arms. Even if the Muslims are being persecuted in any place on earth, they are not allowed to take up any arms. It is unislamic to take up any arms now.

 

[Reuben_J]

The Jihad for Muslims today is to be exactly like it was at the time of Moses in Egypt or at the time of Jesus in kana’an (The Jewish holy land.). Moses a.s. or Jesus did not take up any arms. Even if the Muslims are being persecuted in any place on earth, they are not allowed to take up any arms. It is unislamic to take up any arms now.

But surely you are not speaking for the majority of Muslims for Jihad does call for arm when necessary. Muslims do admit that call for arm for the rightful cause of Allah is permitted and provided for in the understanding of Jihad. It is just that for the most part Jihad involves internal struggle to overcome sins and impurity of thought.

 

[sedonaman]

“Peace” = Islam, real Peace without wars. Comfort for body and soul.

“Justice” = “Adl” = Most important, more than just Love (affair.)

“Defensive”, “Difaa’a” =as in “defensive war” = Defensive war is the one which has to be fought to protect oneself. It is a war which is pressed upon some people, like the pagans of Makkah did upon the newly formed Muslim state of Madinah.

“Messiah” = " Masih" =The anointed. Also the one who travels a lot.

“Prophet”= “Nabi” = A one who receives messages from Allah and makes prophesies depending on the those messages that he recieves from God. He is a man of God.

“Jihad” = “Jihad” =Struggle and effort to spread goodness, striving in the way of Allah in various ways to establish and support truth. It is purely without weapons unless some war is imposed upon Muslims faith.

“Compulsion”, = "ikrah’= as in “no compulsion in religion” = Compulsion is kind of tyranny, Fitnah, oppression, persecution, pressing some one to do something against his will.

“Friends” = “Khaleel” =In Arabic, the word for friend is “Khaleel”, not wali. Wali is a guardian or supporter or ally. Some Muslims have been using the word friend for wali. That is not correct.
“Allies” = “Aulia” =That is a word to be used for supporters and guradians, in Arabic, it is called “Aulia” which is plural of “wali”. Friendliness is found in it but it is not to called friends. In Muslim marriage, the bride has a “Wali”. That is not her friend.

“Abrogation” = “Tanseekh” = Abrogation would be to make something null and void, to make something in-effective, invalid. = to strike out some written matter.

…

Absolutely useless information since “…there is a big difference between reading the translations of Arabic and the original text in Arabic.”

 

[KathleenGee]

Planten,

And aren’t these attributes only extended to Muslims?

How come so many Muslims talk nice but behind our backs, call us names?

There has been peaceful coexistence in religious relations from time to time, but it looks like people have periods of time to rest because they are tired of conflicts, wait awhile and begin jihad again.

The Christians are being run out of the Holy Land, their birthplace, by Muslims. What if Jews and Christians ran out Muslims from Haj??

 

[DavidMark]

…and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. (John 10:16 KJV)

God will one day bring you all together; verily, God is All-Powerful. (Qur’án, 2:148)

**That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error.(**Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 255)

Since this is the promise of the great Faiths, it behooves us to find out what is the hold up! One of the reasons is that Muslims don’t think Jesus was crucified. Do they actually think that they are immune from the mistakes of the past?
It also became commonly thought among Muslims that Christians did not have the true Gospel anymore, and this is a related issue, because the Gospel tells about the Crucifixion. Baha’u’llah said:
Gabriel inspired Muhammad’s illumined heart with these words: "They pervert the text of the Word of God."[Qur’án 4:45.] This is one of the instances that have been referred to. Verily by “perverting” the text is not meant that which these foolish and abject souls have fancied, even as some maintain that Jewish and Christian divines have effaced from the Book such verses as extol and magnify the countenance of Muhammad, and instead thereof have inserted the contrary. How utterly vain and false are these words! Can a man who believeth in a book, and deemeth it to be inspired by God, mutilate it? Moreover, the Pentateuch had been spread over the surface of the earth, and was not confined to Mecca and Medina, so that they could privily corrupt and pervert its text. Nay, rather, by corruption of the text is meant that in which all Muslim divines are engaged today, that is the interpretation of God’s holy Book in accordance with their idle imaginings and vain desires. And as the Jews, in the time of Muhammad, interpreted those verses of the Pentateuch, that referred to His Manifestation, after their own fancy, and refused to be satisfied with His holy utterance, the charge of “perverting” the text was therefore pronounced against them. Likewise, it is clear, how in this day, the people of the Qur’án have perverted the text of God’s holy Book, concerning the signs of the expected Manifestation, and interpreted it according to their inclination and desires. (The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 85)

Baha’is know the body of Jesus was nailed to a cross, and the permeating effect it had on the world. That is why Baha’i sounds Christian to Muslims. But Muslims have a bone to pick with Christians, who have made Jesus God, and Mary the Mother of God, or Jesus the Son of God, when the Qur’an said that God does not beget. Also, the Qur’an discouraged friendship with Jews and Christians, and called them apes, for aping their priests instead of thinking for themselves. So, how can Israel become the Land of Unity that Baha’u’llah speaks of, if there is no resolution to these issues? We need God’s counsel, and that is why Baha’u’llah is the Wonderful (Badí’) Counselor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, and the Prince of Peace.
It will come to be seen by everyone in time that this descendent, of both David and the Sassanian kings of Persia, will rule the Kingdom on Earth, and will indisputably have the authority to adjudicate between the nations, who must beat their swords into plowshares according to prophecy, and thank God for life, and set aside these secondary disputes.

 

[planten]

**But surely you are not speaking for the majority of Muslims **for Jihad does call for arm when necessary. Muslims do admit that call for arm for the rightful cause of Allah is permitted and provided for in the understanding of Jihad. It is just that for the most part Jihad involves internal struggle to overcome sins and impurity of thought.

I admit. You are right.

 

[planten]

Planten,

And aren’t these attributes only extended to Muslims?

How come so many Muslims talk nice but behind our backs, call us names?
There has been peaceful coexistence in religious relations from time to time, but it looks like people have periods of time to rest because they are tired of conflicts, wait awhile and begin jihad again.

The Christians are being run out of the Holy Land, their birthplace, by Muslims. What if Jews and Christians ran out Muslims from Haj??

That is bad to talk like that behind one’s back. That is called hypocracy. There have been some sensible Muslims who during the reign of the British in India, they praised the rulers. They praised the good things of the British rulers. But there were many religious people who were unhappy about that.

They talked bad about the rulers in privacy. But they gained nothing good.

There were good Muslims who served under the British rule happily, faithfully. I wish that those Muslims who are living in Great Britian now should praise the Queen Elizabeth II for her kindness. Evry one should sing the song “God save the Queen.” That is the duty of every Muslim living in UK. Instead of trying to explode bombs in Underground Trains, the Muslim should behave and live happily in that country.

 

[sedonaman]

The Jihad for Muslims today is to be exactly like it was at the time of Moses in Egypt or at the time of Jesus in kana’an (The Jewish holy land.). Moses a.s. or Jesus did not take up any arms. …

Hey, wait a minnit! Wait just one cotton-pickin’ minnit! When Moses asked the Amorites for passage and it was refused, Moses attacked the Amorites. This is one of the reasons that Muslims say, “There is violence in the Bible too.”

 

[cthulhubryan]

Planten,

And aren’t these attributes only extended to Muslims?

How come so many Muslims talk nice but behind our backs, call us names?

There has been peaceful coexistence in religious relations from time to time, but it looks like people have periods of time to rest because they are tired of conflicts, wait awhile and begin jihad again.

The Christians are being run out of the Holy Land, their birthplace, by Muslims. What if Jews and Christians ran out Muslims from Haj??

This is one of the commands of the Koran. Muslims will make nice and even agree to peace until they are strong enough to impose their ways.

A good documentary on the subject can be found here

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Planten, you seem to be ignoring the relevant responses to you and going off on unrelated subjects.

 

[planten]

This is one of the commands of the Koran. Muslims will make nice and even agree to peace until they are strong enough to impose their ways.

A good documentary on the subject can be found here

Tht is true. Some Muslim religious leaders (Maulvis) are anxious to have a govenment of their own. They are political. That is why they are wrong. They are irreligious. Religion concerns basically spiritual matters only with very little politics. Politics in Islam is an exceptional case only.

Otherwise Muslims had been travelling and living happily in christian countries in the past. There was never any need or demand on their behalf for any Sharia law in the christian countries.

The Muslims should remain to their spiritual teachings and need only have freedom to practice and preach their religion peacefully. They should not demand any power or seat of power. Even if they become a majority (80 or 90% majority in a christian country), they should not disturb the peace of the country and should never even think of taking over the countries ( Political) power.

If any country allows the Muslims to live happily, peacefully, they should live peacefully and not indulge in countries politics If called upon to serve, they should serve faithfully and honestly. The Muslims have to prove that they are morally better than all others. At present they are morally at the lowest rung of the ladder.

I said, even if they become a majority, it would be foolish and a sin to try to take over the power in any place in the world. The Muslims are at the receiving end now due to their bad habits and sinful life.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Planten, you have ignored my responses to you here, here, and here. It would be appreciated if you responded to the relevant arguments presented before you regarding the thread topic.

 

[sedonaman]

…
Even if they become a majority (80 or 90% majority in a christian country), …

By definition, it would no longer be a Christian country.

 

[DavidMark]

Back to thread topic… Christians will never accept Islam if Muslims insist there was no crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth.

**For the body of Christ was crucified and vanished, but the Spirit of Christ is always pouring upon the contingent world, and is manifest before the insight of the people of assurance. **(Tablets of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá v1, p. 193)

The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it. Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection. (See Ephesians 5:23) But as the clergy have neither understood the meaning of the Gospels nor comprehended the symbols, therefore, it has been said that religion is in contradiction to science, and science in opposition to religion, as, for example, this subject of the ascension of Christ with an elemental body to the visible heaven is contrary to the science of mathematics. But when the truth of this subject becomes clear, and the symbol is explained, science in no way contradicts it; but, on the contrary, science and the intelligence affirm it. (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 104)

“Regarding your question relative to Surih 4:156 of the Qur’án in which Muhammad says that the Jews did not crucify Jesus the Christ, but one like Him; what is meant by this passage is that although the Jews succeeded in destroying the physical body of Jesus, yet they were impotent to destroy the Divine reality in Him.” (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, March 19, 1938) (Lights of Guidance, p. 497)

 

[planten]

Planten, you have ignored my responses to you here, here, and here. It would be appreciated if you responded to the relevant arguments presented before you regarding the thread topic.

BW, I am sorry if I ignored your points. I feel that all had been replied already.

Actually, we Christians have the answer and the reasons, based on the testimony of eyewitnesses and those who were contemporaries of Christ. We have four accounts, as I stated earlier. They are all consistent, and agree on such things as:

1. Christ was crucified on Golgotha, also known as Calvary [Matt 27:33; Mark 15:22; Luke 23:33; John 19:17]
2. A sign was placed over Christ’s head [Matt 27:37; Mark 15:26; Luke 23:38; John 19:19]
3. Jesus was crucified between two thieves [Matt 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32; John 19:18]
4. The garment Christ wore was divided and gambled over [Matt 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23-24]
5. Most of all…as I said in an earlier post…Jesus died on the cross [Matt 27:50; Mark 15:37; Luke 23:46; John 19:30]

1. I say jesus was put on the cross on Golgotha, also known as Calvary [Matt 27:33; Mark 15:22; Luke 23:33; John 19:17]
2. A sign was placed over Christ’s head [Matt 27:37; Mark 15:26; Luke 23:38; John 19:19]
3. 1. Jesus was put up on the cross between two thieves [Matt 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32; John 19:18]
4. The garment Christ wore was divided and gambled over [Matt 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23-24]
5. I do not agree with that at all. That is the matter under discussion, yet to be proved. So leave that open please.

What can Islam offer? One vague passage from the Koran:

Why do you call it vague? It is a clear belief of the Jews and the christians that they killed Jesus on the cross. What is wrong with it?
The Quran says clearly that they could not kill him on the cross. That is another settlement. You speak to any muslim of any sect. None of the Muslims believe that Jesus was killed on the cross.

 

[planten]

I say “vague” because not even Islamic scholars can agree on what this fully means: some believe that God made Judas look like Jesus and he was crucified instead (I believe an Iranian movie about Jesus came out recently that told this version); some scholars (such as Ahmed Deedat) believe in the “swoon theory”; some believe the whole thing was, as the passage said, made to simply look like Jesus was dying (which is actually an early Gnostic heresy known as Docetism). I’ve heard even wilder theories, such as one that said (and I swear I’m not making this up!) that it was Simon of Cyrene who was crucified instead of Jesus.

I beg your pardon and tell you that the idea that it was some other person (and not Jesus) on the cross originated from some of your christian saints. That was introduced into Muslim beliefs. No where in the Quran or hadith, it is suggested that some one else was on the cross. Your people have admitted that it was some gnostic saints who had introduced that idea. The Quran does not support it. Quran says that jesus appeared to be dead. This has been told to you many times. God had accepted Jesus prayer to avoid the cup. So God avoided that cup by some means. Why don’t you agree?

By contrast, every Christian scholar and every Church Father knows how the crucifixion happened, and they know for a fact how Christ died on the cross - you will not find division among them. It is therefore ironic that the Koran claims there is “conjecture,” when in fact the only “conjecture” is on the side of Islam. The only thing Muslims can do is bring up further conjecture while ignoring the evidence in front of them, or commit what you did earlier and play pick-and-choose with scripture to try and prove their point. The former is circular reasoning, the latter is intellectual dishonesty. If you wish both sides to “keep trying honestly,” then by all means begin to act honestly

.

Every one standing near the site of Crucifixion had to say that Jesus was dead. Had any one said that he was alive, it would have been a disaster for Jesus. They would have broken his legs too and killed him. Then you know very well that he was not buried properly. he was put in a room and a physician (Nicodemus) had come with a 100 pound weight of medicines to help cure the wounds of Jesus. Aloes was a part of those herbs which is used to cure the wounds. Jesus was seen walking and talking after few days. It is your duty o explain all that. But no one will believe your story.
:

Originally Posted by planten FPRIVATE “TYPE=PICT;ALT=View Post”
Thanks for providing the proof that there were some christians who were believing that Jesus did not die on the cross. That was a long time belief originating from the very early times. Not generated at the time of Muhammad.
If you refer to the Gnostics, and call them “Christians” in the sense that they followed the teachings of Jesus Christ, whom both Christians and Muslims profess to know…then you insult your prophet, you insult Jesus, and you insult your religion.

From BW: The Koran teaches that Allah has no partners and no children. In fact, the Gnostics not only believed Allah had partners, but that He also had lesser gods, or demiurges, among His heavenly realm, and even opposing Him. Some of them, such as Marcion, believed that the God of the Old Testament was an evil God that Jesus was sent to save us from - therefore, Muslims who support Marcion inadvertently admit that Allah (who they believe is the God of the Old Testament) is an evil Being.

Muslims do not support any Marcion. We do not even know him.
Again you are adnitting that there were some christians who had the knowledge that Jesus had not died on the cross. Call them what you like. Who originated that idea that Jesus was replaced by some other person (say Judas Iscariot)?. It is not the belief of any Muslim and Muslims did not introduce that idea. So you please take back that idea and keep it to your own faith fellows i.e. christians.

 

[KathleenGee]

Mohammed never met Jesus. He lived hundreds of years afterwards.

The ancient records document that Christ was put on a cross and died.

That is the whole key to His mission on earth.

When you deny the crucifixion, you deny the whole meaning and purpose of Christ as Messiah, Prophet, and King.

Why would we believe someone who says he saw an angel, and this so called angel denies the life, death and resurrection of Christ?

Christ did not come to kill or have us kill others. He taught forgiveness, which He said on the Cross.

How do you know that the Koran is true?

Already I am so offended and hurt by you continually denying the crucifixion and telling us myths.

I just had a letter in my hand a month ago from Pakistani Catholics telling us of how they are being persecuted, killed, their homes burned to the ground because they do not follow the Koran.

And you get angry at Muslims, very angry, when you hear they are leaving and following Christ.

So don’t keep coming here with the same stories. They are not true.