Why Islam denies the crucifixion of Christ

[planten]

Hi Planten,

I am sorry you cannot understand our posts. I am sorry you do not see Allah as God of love and that we are to love one another…I mean that universally, which best is shown in having good will towards others…and the use of reason.

KathleenGee, please be sure that we believe in a loving God. His name or attribute is Wadood.

I also think you do not understand how much the ‘modern scholars’ as Byzantine Wolf refers to, went to great extent to remove Christianity and its guidance on our culture, and our young, especially the ones who go on to higher education. The first thing students learn across the country is how bad Christianity is, how religion has caused the most deaths in the world, the Catholic Church and its oppression of women, and so on.

I know. That is not a problem for you only. It is a problem for every religion.

Then there is the media and entertainment industry defying the 10 commandments and the promotion of hedonism, and how this has come into family television. It just didn’t happen over night. It has been going on since the early 1920’s, and some aspects of it have been going since the late 1700’s

.

That is true. The present day trend is all against religion. It would be good to introduce every one to the age old 10 commandmens. They were very useful for the mankind.

And then I see so many times Muslims referring seculars as Christians. A Christian is someone who has freely and independently made a free will choice to lay down his life for Jesus. Some kids were able to do so when they were in Catholic/Protestant private schools. Most go through a time of questioning when they are in their teens into early 20s. Childhood baptisms do not insure or lead to an adult like conversion, especially in the West.

I do not relate atheists to christians. But i do not blame the secularist too much. If secularism means equal treatment to all faiths, all religions and secularism does not oppose any religion (Like it used to be during the British rule in India), that would be alright. I believe that most governments in Europe (and America and India) are secular even today and that is good for all. But I may be wrong in thinking like that

The other thing that I see is the attitude towards Western women that we are all whores. Myself, my friends, and now my 28 year old daughters were virgins. We have only been with our husbands. A Palestinian Muslim saw my picture on Newsvine and thought I was very young. When she came to me, she asked if I wore a bikini. Really, if she were before me, I would have come to close to slapping her in the face. She was very arrogant and vulger, had terrible prejudice against anyone Jewish. I married a foreigner whose culture is predominantly nominal Catholic. A member told me that they liked me because I was different, and they think Americans are whores…never mind the choices she made…

I do not think like that. I have seen many good christians, In fact they could be considered virgins. They were beautiful white ladies, very good at heart, good practicing ladies. If they were falling short in their religious practices, that may be due to exigencies of their work time table. Otherwise they were good christians at heart.

So I also am very aware of the attitude of Muslims towards Western women, and it is obsessed on that image many of us detest as well.

I wish all those who profess (project) themselves as christians should try hard to be good practicing christians. That would be a good way. Christianity had been preached (spread) in the world with mighty efforts of the church. It is now necessary with a similar effort to save the christian teachings.

So I think the other thing is Muslims need to have an open mind, stop pushing their religion on our country with plots to take over. You need to see there are many holy Christians living a profound life in God without bringing alot of attention to themselves.

I am definitely against any take over by Muslims. It would be foolish to do such thing even if they are in majority. Their real test of Islam would be when they are in majority in any previously non-muslim country. Even then they should not try to take over. But who would listen to me? Nobody will do as I am suggesting. Most people are greedy for power and the present day Muslim clergy is fighting to gain Islamic Power on this planet.

I repeat, if any non-Muslim country is offering good peaceful living to Muslims to practice their faith peacefully, so that they may progress, in that country the Muslims should never think of taking over. I do not believe in political Islam. I do not believe in any political religion.

I think Muslims have an awful lot to learn about true Christianity, true Christians, the use of reason, return back to your ancient Arab scholars who were great thinkers, and finally, to learn Who Jesus truly is. You do not know him.

I agree with you on that and I have been writing about it. The Muslims have a lot to learn from many nations. The first and foremost lesson is to shun the weapons of destruction that they are carrying and th hatred that they may have against non-Muslims. What ever the non-Muslims are doing is no matter for the Muslims to judge. Every one will be Judged by God alone.

Thank you for your lecture.

 

[planten]

Oh hi Planten. Did you think of something to respond to my points with?

I cannot recall anything. It would be necessary to describe a point very briefly, please.

 

[Mosacked]

Would the Anti-Christ advocate that Christ had died for our sins?

muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com

.

 

[DavidMark]

Would the Anti-Christ advocate that Christ had died for our sins?

muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com

Mosacked, that website is pitiful to me, as a Baha’i.
Even tho’ Muslims betrayed and killed the Bab and persecuted Baha’u’llah for 40 years, it does not change the validity of Muhammad’s Station of Prophethood.
As I have explained elsewhere, Muslims havebecome subject to a few misinterpretations, just as the previous religions have. One of these is the crucifixion. The body was killed, but the body is now lost, and what will return is His repslendent Spirit, with a new Name.

You can deny it all you want, but you make yourself look like a Jew who does not accept the Lord Christ. Even some of them are now Messianic, and love Jesus.

**As Christians believe in Moses, so the Jews should believe in Jesus. As the Muhammadans believe in Christ and Moses, so likewise the Jews and the Christians should believe in Muhammad. Then all disputes would disappear, all then would be united. Bahá’u’lláh came for this purpose. He has made the three religions one. **~‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, p. 43

**The different religions have one truth underlying them; therefore, their reality is one. **~Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 105
…and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. (John 10:16b KJV)

 

[KathleenGee]

Planten,

Thank you for taking the time to respond to all my concerns. My last point I did not add was that when Muslims here look at me, I do see the contempt in reference to what I had told you…the same look towards me that is not love, a sense of superiority, and I am not walking around in scanty clothes.

I worked in a Marian organization several years ago. We went into neighborhoods to reach out to fallen away Catholics. I came to a house that had someone in there. They didn’t come to the door. We walked away and a hand appeared in the window beckoning us back. We went back and it was a Muslim woman. She had a child and her husband was out of town working. We began to talk. And then I gave her a picture of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, the name we give Him…God’s valentine of Love to us. On the back was a prayer to Him. I left it with her. Some time later I returned to the neighborhood. She came out and when she recognized me, she came out and put her arms around me and then said ‘I now understand’…She now understands Who Jesus is and how we relate to Him and it is not at all about dominating others.

I have alot of mistrust of foreigners who come to America now. Be they legal or illegal. The seculars are working to destroy our sovereignty of our nation, to destroy public morals, to remove religion from its Constitutional right to express freely. And they allow many to come here merely to make money and not integrate and become part of what made our country good.

We are now at the crossroads of a one world global government. And when the atheists and all those who hate and steal and lie think they got it all, the Lord will remove it from them, and there will come about a great reconciliation and peace in the world.

In the meantime, we are to love all of mankind, forgive those who trespass – I mean myself as well – and to pray and fast to defeat evil.

God bless you.

 

[KathleenGee]

About Jesus coming back in glory…

He already did.

With 24 hours.

Christ appeared to His apostles who were hiding on the night of the Resurrection. He gave the apostles the power to forgive sins. The basic church was still being established…that based on the Apostles…through the Eucharist and ordained ministry at the Last Supper, to the sacrament of reconciliation/confession that night. He appeared later on the walk to Emmaus showing the Apostles and followers how to present the Gospel to others…in the way of relating…that would leave a person with a heart that burns for love of God, to want to encounter God again.

Christ’s state left the Resurrected into the Glorious state when He rose into heaven. He will never come to this earth again to rule.

At the end of the world, only the Father knows when, then we will receive a new heaven and a new earth…those who endured in God and His attributes – love, creating, forming, providing, caring, serving, helping, working honestly and seeing all mankind as an extension of one’s self – these will be there. I see people of all races in it and all persuasions and let God decide Who will be there…meaning other religions as well…

Christians do not have a monopoly on compassion…

And then Christ will visibly rule over all of us…He is already King of Earth and King of the Universe for those who believe…

So for now, we have to focus on how we live our lives…because our final coming will be the day we die.

 

[Nine_Two]

I cannot recall anything. It would be necessary to describe a point very briefly, please.

Quite dishonest.

 

[dolphinlove]

I cannot recall anything. It would be necessary to describe a point very briefly, please.

:banghead: :manvspc: :takethat: :slapfight:

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I cannot recall anything. It would be necessary to describe a point very briefly, please.

Dolphinlove summed up my RL reaction perfectly…

:banghead: :manvspc: :takethat: :slapfight:

Planten, I sincerely cannot believe you. Are you seriously so desperate and so gullible that you really think people fall for this? That people haven’t been following this thread? That people haven’t seen that for several pages you simply ignored my arguments that you had been responding to? That you argued the exact same things I had addressed to other people? That I gave you every link to every single post I had made and asked you to refer to them? That you once again danced around it? That you use the same excuses over and over again in a predictable fashion? Do you honestly think no one notices?

Again, and again, and again, I feel sorry for every Muslim on this forum that they are forced to defend Islam with you as a teammate. You only harm the cause of Islam, and if I saw a Christian on a Muslim forum debating in the same style you do, I would be ashamed.

I have been patient with you for a very very long time. But for now, I’m going to add you to my ignore list, because it’s clear to me that you have nothing positive to contribute to this forum, and you have absolutely no interest in entering meaningful dialogue with people of other faiths. I know you’ll jump up and down and declare this a victory, but I don’t care. It is nothing but a paper tiger. I know that any one reading this thread will see what has unfolded. And I pray any Muslim reading this thread will realize who has been honest and who has not been.

God bless.

 

[Mosacked]

Mosacked, that website is pitiful to me, as a Baha’i.
Even tho’ Muslims betrayed and killed the Bab and persecuted Baha’u’llah for 40 years, it does not change the validity of Muhammad’s Station of Prophethood.
As I have explained elsewhere, Muslims havebecome subject to a few misinterpretations, just as the previous religions have. One of these is the crucifixion. The body was killed, but the body is now lost, and what will return is His repslendent Spirit, with a new Name.

You can deny it all you want, but you make yourself look like a Jew who does not accept the Lord Christ. Even some of them are now Messianic, and love Jesus.

**As Christians believe in Moses, so the Jews should believe in Jesus. As the Muhammadans believe in Christ and Moses, so likewise the Jews and the Christians should believe in Muhammad. Then all disputes would disappear, all then would be united. Bahá’u’lláh came for this purpose. He has made the three religions one. **~‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, p. 43

**The different religions have one truth underlying them; therefore, their reality is one. **~Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 105
…and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. (John 10:16b KJV)

Davidmark, you’re not the 1st person in the world to reject the Bible and you won’t be the last.

muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com

.

 

[Nine_Two]

I’m still curious, Planten, what your thought on Islam’s gnostic heritage in light of the document I posted?

 

[planten]

Dolphinlove summed up my RL reaction perfectly…

Planten, I sincerely cannot believe you. Are you seriously so desperate and so gullible that you really think people fall for this? That people haven’t been following this thread? That people haven’t seen that for several pages you simply ignored my arguments that you had been responding to? That you argued the exact same things I had addressed to other people? That I gave you every link to every single post I had made and asked you to refer to them? That you once again danced around it? That you use the same excuses over and over again in a predictable fashion? Do you honestly think no one notices?

Again, and again, and again, I feel sorry for every Muslim on this forum that they are forced to defend Islam with you as a teammate. You only harm the cause of Islam, and if I saw a Christian on a Muslim forum debating in the same style you do, I would be ashamed.

I have been patient with you for a very very long time. But for now, I’m going to add you to my ignore list, because it’s clear to me that you have nothing positive to contribute to this forum, and you have absolutely no interest in entering meaningful dialogue with people of other faiths. I know you’ll jump up and down and declare this a victory, but I don’t care. It is nothing but a paper tiger. I know that any one reading this thread will see what has unfolded. And I pray any Muslim reading this thread will realize who has been honest and who has not been.

God bless.

B W, I will be grateful if you put me on your ignore list. I could not satisfy you But I did not ignore you. It is not you only that I have to reply. There are others too. You had asked a question. I replied. My answer did not suit you and you made more questions.

Every one has seen your posts as well as mine. So let it be. There is no need to continue the posts ad infinitum.

Now you have written a half page of your unhappy views but you could not write one line of your present theological problems / difficulties. Why is that?? I asked you to mention just a few things. You did not do it. I feel that I had answered all the questions relating to the topic in hand. I cannot remove the peronal problems of any individual. Forgive.

 

[DavidMark]

About Jesus coming back in glory…He already did.
At the end of the world, only the Father knows when, then we will receive a new heaven and a new earth…those who endured in God and His attributes – love, creating, forming, providing, caring, serving, helping, working honestly and seeing all mankind as an extension of one’s self – these will be there. I see people of all races in it and all persuasions and let God decide Who will be there…meaning other religions as well…
Christians do not have a monopoly on compassion…
And then Christ will visibly rule over all of us…He is already King of Earth and King of the Universe for those who believe…
So for now, we have to focus on how we live our lives…because our final coming will be the day we die.

Hi Kathleen, I like everything you say. You write with sensitivity and conviction. I am archiving it for myself elsewhere. It is also my belief that the early Church was the Body of Christ, just as it is now, and the few followers were sad the Lord was gone and inert, until Mary Magdalene alerted them to His resurrection. Then, that Body stood up and started teaching, which is how I know of Him! Someone told someone who told someone etc…

I find Catholics are often uninterested in chronological prophecies. I can understand why, since they were obscure, and “sealed” for a long time. But the seals are now broken for discerning minds to discover. I want to mention two of them. Jesus alludes to one when he counselled Peter to forgive 70 X 7 (= 490 times). This was not just hyperbole, but a reference to Daniel’s “70 weeks” prophecy in 9:24-26, about an “anointed one” being “cut off” (i.e. Christ’s crucifixion)
I have even met some Christians who ignore this promise of the Bible and rationalize it away, or are subject to generations of imaginations which prevent the Gospel’s power from operating within them or the world. So, I shall show how Daniel foretold the great Atonement by Christ’s sacrifice.

The Baha’i Writings say: **These seventy weeks begin with the restoration and the rebuilding of Jerusalem, concerning which four edicts were issued by three kings. The first was issued by Cyrus in the year 536 B.C.; this is recorded in the first chapter of the Book of Ezra. The second edict, with reference to the rebuilding of Jerusalem, is that of Darius of Persia in the year 519 B.C.; this is recorded in the sixth chapter of Ezra. The third is that of Artaxerxes in the seventh year of his reign – that is, in 457 B.C.; this is recorded in the seventh chapter of Ezra. The fourth is that of Artaxerxes in the year 444 B.C.; this is recorded in the second chapter of Nehemiah. But Daniel refers especially to the third edict which was issued in the year 457 B.C. Seventy weeks make four hundred and ninety days. Each day, according to the text of the Holy Book, is a year. For in the Bible it is said: ‘The day of the Lord is one year’ **[Num. 14:34]
457 BC + 490 = 33 AD

So, from my perspective, if the Muslim matrix is rejected, the Unifier that comes from it will also be rejected, and He is the only One who can reconcile the hostile Christians and Muslims, a miracle comparable to His other healings. This began when adventists looked to 1844 as the end-time of the “2300 days” that Jesus referred to:
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand). (Matthew 24:15) Jesus refers to the following prophecy in Daniel 8:13-14: …**How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto 2300 days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. **

456 B.C.E. + 2300 solar years = 1844 C.E.
At this same time, in Islam, their calendar was 1260 AH, 1000 lunar years had passed since the disappearance of the 12th Shí’ite Imam. So, it was a particular school of thought among the Shí’ih, (as it was among the Essenes and the Baptists before) that looked with eagerness to that time. The people were called the Shaykhís, and they were the group from which most of the Babís and Bahá’ís would later come.
Do you see how this could be a point of unity between the warring faiths, or is there no vision left in the world?

 

[planten]

I’m still curious, Planten, what your thought on Islam’s gnostic heritage in light of the document I posted?

I am not expert on gnostics. I heard this word from the Catholics on this thread. Any how, they belong to christians, long before Islam. We had nothing to do with them.

Please tell me what the gnostics have to do with Isalm, in a few words.

 

[Jay53]

I am not expert on gnostics. I heard this word from the Catholics on this thread. Any how, they belong to christians, long before Islam. We had nothing to do with them.

Please tell me what the gnostics have to do with Isalm, in a few words.

Basically Muhammad copied what the gnostics believed and added part of it into the Quran. Please read/re-read post #1 of this thread - the very first post that started this thread!

 

[KathleenGee]

Planten,

Back on track here, I have read many posts by various people here, and they are all telling you the same points in various ‘flavors’.

So to say you don’t understand, or we are to tell you,…well…it then becomes circular…

 

[KathleenGee]

DavidMark,

There are members of the Catholic clergy who look more to Dan as the Scripture pertaining to these times…also Revelations 11 - 12 in the New Testament…

What do you think the daily sacrifice is?..

 

[sedonaman]

…
Please tell me what the gnostics have to do with Isalm, in a few words…

Hey, waitaminnit. Wait just one cotton-pickin minnit. The topic of this thread is why Islam denies the crucifixion of Christ, and not Gnostics. Besides, not only is this a deliberate attempt to subvert the discussion of Islam by changing the subject, it’s unfair that you ask questions of Christians before answering ours first, like the one I asked back on August 16 on what you believe Islam says the teachings of Jesus are:

…
There is a hell of a difference in the teachings of Jesus and the words of Paul.

To which I responded:

What are the teachings of Jesus? You have said in the past that the Bible had been corrupted by the introduction of ideas such as the Trinity and those of that dastardly Paul of Tarsus. If that is so, then we would have to throw out derivative ideas such as the Real Presence, eating his flesh and drinking his blood, Jesus being manna from heaven, etc. In fact, we would have to throw out so much that there would be hardly anything left of the Gospel. You have also said in prior posts that Jesus taught “many” good things [presumably that is what prophets do]. If that is true, and the Qur’an is to correct the “corruptions” of prior revelations, where in the Qur’an are the “good teachings” of Jesus such as the Lord’s Prayer and the Sermon on the Mount? If those are “corruptions” also, what do Muslims consider the “good teachings” of Jesus?

Why do you refuse to answer this question?

 

[Nine_Two]

I am not expert on gnostics. I heard this word from the Catholics on this thread. Any how, they belong to christians, long before Islam. We had nothing to do with them.

Please tell me what the gnostics have to do with Isalm, in a few words.

You admitted that they have had an influence on Islam. They have far more in common with Islam than with Christianity. I’m just wondering how you feel about your religion taking bits and pieces from an obvious abomination.

 

[sedonaman]

… I’m just wondering how you feel about your religion taking bits and pieces from an obvious abomination.

Sounds like a question similar to the one I am asking him. You will never get an answer.

More to your point, you have touched on an interesting question, why does Islam reject the Bible that it relies on for its own validation? An interesting address of that question is here, at some length [because of the numerous references, which you can skip over and still get the gist of the thesis.]
Evidentiary Religions – Islam
Contents
Introduction
Koran and Judeo-Christian Apostles
Koran and Judeo-Christian Scriptures
Koran Contradicts Judeo-Christianity (Part 1)
Koran Contradicts Judeo-Christianity (Part 2)
Koran Contradicts Judeo-Christianity (Part 3)
Koran Contradicts Judeo-Christianity (Part 4)
Another Gospel and Explaining the Success of Islam (Part 1)
Explaining the Success of Islam (Part 2)
Explaining the Success of Islam (Part 3)
Islam Conclusions