Why isn't confirmation harder?

[MorEphrem]

Confirmation, yes. Communion, no. Communion can only be given to a child who understands the difference between Communion and regular food and can receive reverently.

Ah yes, just like when you give your small child antibiotics for their sickness you must first explain to them why they must take antibiotics so that it works efficaciously. If they’re simply too young to understand, the antibiotics can be deferred to an age until they do. Oh wait…

But, back on topic, the Latin Church confirmation classes are absolutely terrible and don’t even have anything to do with the sacrament itself. I was chrismated, but to be “included” I was still asked to go to confirmation classes with my peers. First, it concerns me that in high school my Latin brethren could not answer if Jesus was man or God and if we were going to turn to a verse of Scripture the teacher would say e.g. John 3:16 - they wouldn’t have a clue what the numbers even meant. Second, the classes themselves had nothing to do with the sacrament, and little to do with sacraments in general. Most exercises were silly at best - I remember one where we had to prioritize, in the context of our own lives, what we do during the week. Following the exercise, we didn’t even try to stipulate what it should normatively look like.

I think my experience is indicative of something worse - no kid will have volition to even want to do confirmation if they can’t even tell you that Jesus is God and man (why should they have any devotion if they don’t even know what the faith is?). So the foundational catechesis, at least in the Latin diocese by me, are absolutely terrible - if that is not improved then they simply won’t get people for confirmation in the next generation. Once foundational catechesis is corrected, hopefully confirmation classes would then be made into more than a waste of an hour each Sunday. Again, perhaps I misunderstand because Eastern Churches are smaller and therefore permit priest-to-catechumen catechesis but part of the issue is random lay people “teaching.”

 

[malphono]

…

Sorry to butt in, but I’ll offer a comment or two if I may.

While there is a de jure difference in the Latin Church, I’m really not so sure there’s much de facto difference between confirmation and communion insofar as age or timing is concerned. Neither one really requires particular instruction before administration (just as in MorEphrem’s antibiotic analogy), but the Latin Church, for whatever reason, has determined otherwise. (And by emulation, some of the Oriental Churches in union with Rome sadly follow suit, at least regarding communion, but I digress.)

In any case, it seems to me that the catechesis, whether before or after, should not be of the useless but common “garden variety” described below.

…
But, back on topic, the Latin Church confirmation classes are absolutely terrible and don’t even have anything to do with the sacrament itself. I was chrismated, but to be “included” I was still asked to go to confirmation classes with my peers. First, it concerns me that in high school my Latin brethren could not answer if Jesus was man or God and if we were going to turn to a verse of Scripture the teacher would say e.g. John 3:16 - they wouldn’t have a clue what the numbers even meant. Second, the classes themselves had nothing to do with the sacrament, and little to do with sacraments in general. Most exercises were silly at best - I remember one where we had to prioritize, in the context of our own lives, what we do during the week. Following the exercise, we didn’t even try to stipulate what it should normatively look like.

I think my experience is indicative of something worse - no kid will have volition to even want to do confirmation if they can’t even tell you that Jesus is God and man (why should they have any devotion if they don’t even know what the faith is?). So the foundational catechesis, at least in the Latin diocese by me, are absolutely terrible - if that is not improved then they simply won’t get people for confirmation in the next generation. Once foundational catechesis is corrected, hopefully confirmation classes would then be made into more than a waste of an hour each Sunday.

Agreed that the catechesis (for lack of a better term) is terrible, but of course it has no direct bearing on confirmation at all. Apparently the same is true of pre-communion instruction these days, else those classmates would have had some idea of what was going on.

The pre-conciliar routine in the Latin Church was for confirmation to be administered at age 8 or 9, after something of a one semester instruction on the Sacrament and its fruits. That was bad enough, but certainly better than what followed. All of sudden, confirmation became something for teenagers but without any serious instruction.

Again, perhaps I misunderstand because Eastern Churches are smaller and therefore permit priest-to-catechumen catechesis but part of the issue is random lay people “teaching.”

I agree with the last phrase, but one has to be very careful about what precedes it. I think you know exactly what I mean, so I won’t say more.

Taking a new name in confirmation is certainly not automatic. Until my 40s I’d never heard of this small ‘t’ tradition, which is by no means universal and is not part of the Rite today, if it ever was. I was confirmed in 1960 and took no new name, neither did my two brothers after me. Neither did my goddaughter for whom I was Confirmation sponsor in the 80s. Nor did any of my 3 children who were confirmed in the 90s.

The pre-conciliar routine in these parts was to take a “confirmation name” like it or not.

 

[pianistclare]

Ah yes, just like when you give your small child antibiotics for their sickness you must first explain to them why they must take antibiotics so that it works efficaciously. If they’re simply too young to understand, the antibiotics can be deferred to an age until they do. Oh wait…

But, back on topic, the Latin Church confirmation classes are absolutely terrible and don’t even have anything to do with the sacrament itself. I was chrismated, but to be “included” I was still asked to go to confirmation classes with my peers. First, it concerns me that in high school my Latin brethren could not answer if Jesus was man or God and if we were going to turn to a verse of Scripture the teacher would say e.g. John 3:16 - they wouldn’t have a clue what the numbers even meant. Second, the classes themselves had nothing to do with the sacrament, and little to do with sacraments in general. Most exercises were silly at best - I remember one where we had to prioritize, in the context of our own lives, what we do during the week. Following the exercise, we didn’t even try to stipulate what it should normatively look like.

I think my experience is indicative of something worse - no kid will have volition to even want to do confirmation if they can’t even tell you that Jesus is God and man (why should they have any devotion if they don’t even know what the faith is?). So the foundational catechesis, at least in the Latin diocese by me, are absolutely terrible - if that is not improved then they simply won’t get people for confirmation in the next generation. Once foundational catechesis is corrected, hopefully confirmation classes would then be made into more than a waste of an hour each Sunday. Again, perhaps I misunderstand because Eastern Churches are smaller and therefore permit priest-to-catechumen catechesis but part of the issue is random lay people “teaching.”

Wow. I’m sad to hear your experience was lousy.
But, where we are, we do not permit “random laypeople” to teach.
All of our catechists must go through a pretty rigorous program to become certified. DRE’s like myself are required to have a Theology degree from an approved Catholic University along with a whole other list of certifications, and I am expected to continue my education continually. I make it a habit to sit in on the Religious Ed classes, all of them, so see for myself what is going on, and if someone is not properly teaching, they’re out.

So, one size does not fit all. It’s communicated from the Bishop to the Pastors about how to implement a good program and what is expected to be covered.
Parents should demand good catechesis. But, really do many of them care? I would say the present generation is already suffering for lack of interest. That ship has already sailed…

 

[Phemie]

Wow. I’m sad to hear your experience was lousy.
But, where we are, we do not permit “random laypeople” to teach.
All of our catechists must go through a pretty rigorous program to become certified. DRE’s like myself are required to have a Theology degree from an approved Catholic University along with a whole other list of certifications, and I am expected to continue my education continually. I make it a habit to sit in on the Religious Ed classes, all of them, so see for myself what is going on, and if someone is not properly teaching, they’re out.

So, one size does not fit all. It’s communicated from the Bishop to the Pastors about how to implement a good program and what is expected to be covered.
Parents should demand good catechesis. But, really do many of them care? I would say the present generation is already suffering for lack of interest. That ship has already sailed…

Happy to hear it’s like that in your diocese. In mine it’s whoever puts up their hand is handed a manual and let loose on a class. No training, no finding out what they know, nothing. That’s why when a kid in my son’s Confirmation class asked how you knew something was a sin, the catechist replied, ‘Well, if you feel bad after you’ve done something it was probably a sin.’ Envy? “Oh, that’s when you look at your friend’s sneakers and wish you had some.”

 

[Joannm]

20 kids and 10 adults in a separate session, so 30 people total, in a parish of about 700 families.
We put the same effort into it as does the parish down the road that has 70-100 Confirmands.

We have 320 kids this year for Confirmation. Classes have about 20 kids in each class. It is hard for catechists to teach classes that large but we can’t get enough catechists. Plus the troublesome kids in the classes make it difficult for the others to really learn .

 

[pianistclare]

Happy to hear it’s like that in your diocese. In mine it’s whoever puts up their hand is handed a manual and let loose on a class. No training, no finding out what they know, nothing. That’s why when a kid in my son’s Confirmation class asked how you knew something was a sin, the catechist replied, ‘Well, if you feel bad after you’ve done something it was probably a sin.’ Envy? “Oh, that’s when you look at your friend’s sneakers and wish you had some.”

That is regrettable alright. And what’s worse, kids can see through baloney a mile away.
Such a shame.
Probably parishes can’t afford a well trained DRE, and you have to be able to talk the eskimos into buying a refrigerator to talk some people into working with kids. I don’t get it.
Kids are not know-it-alls, kids are interested in learning the truth. They are not the demons that people make them out to be.
Most pre-teen and teens just want to know two things:

1. That you’ll always be straight with them.
2. That you love them. That you’re not there to hammer them, but to show them the right way to live and that you truly care and love them.

I pray that pastors everywhere take a long hard look at their programs.
And that good solidly catechized adult step up and offer to help teach.
Peace to you,
pianist

 

[Brendan_64]

TProbably parishes can’t afford a well trained DRE

This is something I can’t understand. Do parishes in the USA actually employ people?

In the UK parishes could never afford this. Our parish doesn’t even employ the parish secretary, she is a volunteer, and this is normal for most parishes. I was quite taken aback when I found out recently that a parish near me actually employs a parish secretary for two whole days a week, my response was, “How can they afford it?”. In the UK, parishes don’t employ anyone, and the priest is paid as a result of the Christmas and Easter collection, all other collection money goes to paying the bills and keeping the parish solvent.

 

[Phemie]

This is something I can’t understand. Do parishes in the USA actually employ people?

In the UK parishes could never afford this. Our parish doesn’t even employ the parish secretary, she is a volunteer, and this is normal for most parishes. I was quite taken aback when I found out recently that a parish near me actually employs a parish secretary for two whole days a week, my response was, “How can they afford it?”. In the UK, parishes don’t employ anyone, and the priest is paid as a result of the Christmas and Easter collection, all other collection money goes to paying the bills and keeping the parish solvent.

I don’t know about the US or even most of the dioceses in Canada but in my own diocese the priest is paid a salary which is built into the annual parish budget. All priests in the diocese get the same amount and, taking into consideration the car allowance and the taxable portion of their room and board, it comes to about $2800/mo. After deductions they clear about $1800.

Some secretaries are volunteers, some are employed. It depends on the parish. After I’d been volunteering for a year the Pastor insisted that I be hired and we decided how much the parish could afford and how many hours I would work. I was serving 4 separate parishes with 4 separate budgets, registers, etc. I ended up paid for 25 hours/week for 11 years but spent much more time than that at the office. Nobody really cared that my “work week” ended at 3 pm on Friday – if I was at Mass on Saturday or Sunday and people wanted Masses or certificates or anything else parish related they expected me to accommodate.

When I left in 2011, a volunteer took on some of my most immediate duties and the secretary’s wages quietly disappeared from the budget. I had given 6 months notice, so it’s not like they didn’t know I was leaving, but minimum wage had gone up in my province and for the last 3 or 4 years of employment I was making minimum wage because they couldn’t afford to pay more. They were unlikely to find someone to do what I was doing at minimum wage.

We hire a maintenance man during the summers when most of the heavier work needs to be done. Just as it did with me, minimum wage rose to meet what he was being paid and he stayed at that level.

Some parishes who can afford it will hire a catechetical coordinator to pull everything together but the catechists themselves are very much volunteers. That’s why in this area there has been no ongoing catechesis since the Catholic schools were abolished in 1998. We get immediate sacramental preparation but nothing more. Nobody wants to commit to teach more than the short-term preparation. In the parish down the road the only catechesis the kids get is during Mass. So even kids who’ve already made their First Communion are dismissed after the Greeting and go for Confirmation preparation and don’t return until Communion because “it’s the only time we can get them here.”

 

[pianistclare]

This is something I can’t understand. Do parishes in the USA actually employ people?

In the UK parishes could never afford this. Our parish doesn’t even employ the parish secretary, she is a volunteer, and this is normal for most parishes. I was quite taken aback when I found out recently that a parish near me actually employs a parish secretary for two whole days a week, my response was, “How can they afford it?”. In the UK, parishes don’t employ anyone, and the priest is paid as a result of the Christmas and Easter collection, all other collection money goes to paying the bills and keeping the parish solvent.

YES, …mostly. If they can get someone for free, they WILL go for it. Also, if they know something is your passion, like Music, for example, the person will not get paid commensurate with their abilities. I know this from personal experience. I worked as the Music Director for about 25 years…in 4 parishes…one volunteer, and the others, I’d be too embarrassed to tell you what they paid me. (Persons who complain about the music…insert your frustrations here. Volunteers know little about liturgy and if they can’t pay for the Director, they can’t afford sheet music either.)
Anyway, our parish employs a secretary, a Hispanic secretary, and a custodian, all part time. The bookkeeper works one day a week, and the Deacon runs the business end of things, on a tiny stipend. As DRE, I am the only full time employee. It’s Sunday, so I am about to head off for work/church. 9 am to 9 pm. M-W 11-8, Thurs Fri off, Sat 4-9pm.

So yeah…it takes a lot of work to get the educational programs up, running smoothly, supervise the volunteers, do the office work, make the certificates, keep the Sacramental books, publish newsletters, generate the church calendar, arrange mission trips for the teens, teach the catechists for certification, translate and answer the phones in Spanish on the Span Secty’s off days, and run interference for Father, order the materials for the RCIA groups, Bible study groups, make sure everyone turns in their paperwork (proofs of Sacraments) and prepare presentations to the parish. We’re a small parish, so I do that stuff. The secretary does the bulletin, handles all the money, keeps all the parish enrollment records, schedules the visits to the hospitals, etc. Makes the worship aides for the weekends, funerals, schedules the usage of the meeting spaces, communicates with all the ministries and helps them in whatever they need. Everybody else is self explanatory. We eat lunch together daily as a family with Father and one of the Deacons, and we are pretty much like a little family. It’s a really nice workplace. Much nicer than when I was a school DRE. OH THE DRAMA!

 

[Brendan_64]

You must have bigger parishes in the USA as in the UK the vast majority of parishes employ nobody. Deacons don’t get paid a penny, and everything is done by volunteers giving up their time for free. And with that we still struggle to break even.

 

[Phemie]

You must have bigger parishes in the USA as in the UK the vast majority of parishes employ nobody. Deacons don’t get paid a penny, and everything is done by volunteers giving up their time for free. And with that we still struggle to break even.

May I ask how big your parishes are? We have about 450 families for a total Catholic population of ~1500 (there hasn’t been a parish census done in decades and we have a highly transient population because our parish includes a military base without a Catholic chaplain).

The annual budget with priest salary is ~$60K.

 

[paperwight66]

You must have bigger parishes in the USA as in the UK the vast majority of parishes employ nobody. Deacons don’t get paid a penny, and everything is done by volunteers giving up their time for free. And with that we still struggle to break even.

How do you know that, Brendan 64? Where did you get those stats? All I know is, my home parish employs a secretary all day four days a week, while our deacon gets a retainer of a few thousand pounds a year, and the next door parish is similar (which I know because we are sharing clergy at the moment).

Where is your info. from?

 

[Brendan_64]

From the parishes in and around my own diocese.

The priest doesn’t get paid a salary. His income come from the Christmas and Easter collection (which is the same throughout the diocese I live in, and the diocese I work in). Deacons don’t get paid either. We employ nobody, and everything is done using volunteers. We have about 300 families in our parish.

We just about break even with our collections. We are in debt to the diocese for some large building projects, but that is planned and paying it back is built into our budget.

Perhaps I am assuming a similar picture elsewhere. I just can’t see how other parishes could afford to pay salaries, unless it was a very big parish.

 

[babochka]

You must have bigger parishes in the USA as in the UK the vast majority of parishes employ nobody. Deacons don’t get paid a penny, and everything is done by volunteers giving up their time for free. And with that we still struggle to break even.

We have a very small parish (about 20 families) and the priest gets a salary, but we have no other paid staff. It really isn’t needed, obviously, but it would be nice if we could pay our cantor something. We are quite unusual, though. Most parishes in this area are over 1000 families. Some of the poor parishes do not have any paid staff, but most have a parish secretary and DRE, and often pay a part-time Youth Minister and Music Minster as well.

 

[pianistclare]

First, let me clarify something.
Deacons don’t get paid. They’re not supposed to get paid. Ours gets a very small stipend.
We have about 700 families. I can’t remember what the annual budget is, but it’s considerably greater than the last poster said. A chunk goes to the Diocese in form of a tax, which they use for all the programs they offer, and the running of the Chancery, which manages over 100 parishes, and the seminarians’ education.
We’re small potatoes. There are parishes with thousands of families and offertories in the tens of thousands. That’s not us. But we manage, and pay all of our bills. The parish pays the pastor (a very small salary) the parish reimburses him his food, gas, expenses. He has to buy his own car, and pay his own insurance. So it’s hard for them to save. .
We do charge tuition for kids educational programs. There is no tuition and no fees for any Sacramental Prep, RCIA, or Bible study.
Also, we still owe the Diocese money from the construction of the church 10 years ago.
About 2 mil.
We’re hoping to win the lotto…LOL
Also, we pay “rent” to the school for the use of the classrooms. THAT’s a bummer.

 

[fastenatingguy]

I think it’s a smart thing when the leaders of the church choose to use the opportunity of the sacrament of Confirmation to give those receiving it additional instruction and I agree that this instruction, and perhaps the ceremony associated with it, should be impressive about what a wonderful thing our faith is.

Unfortunately, parents these days aren’t always so good at teaching this stuff from inside the home, and aren’t so great at following through on catechism, CCD or whatever classes they bring the children to. Some parents who have promised to bring up their children as Catholic, have abdicated this responsibility, following the faith when it’s convenient. Unfortunately, that means the children who could and should have been a stronger grounding in faith will lose the opportunity.

When our leaders take the opportunity to create a series of classes, a nice ceremony, and to do it at an age when the children are able to develop a better understanding of our faith, then at least the parents who are TRYING (if often forgetting and failing) to meet the requirements of our faith, will be bringing the kids in for classes and the kids will be exposed to it. I agree that it would be nice if these classes were designed to ignite love for our faith in the hearts of those who are preparing for confirmation. Some parishes and dioceses accomplish this, others do not.

However, even if there is a good program of preparation, it is not a guarantee that someone will pay attention… or even the parents will treat it as anything other than a mere formality. If the parents do not consider it an important thing, the kids will not.

Thinking it through… if the Church does not consider it worthy of making a significant preparation and/or ceremony, then why would the parents feel any differently?

I understand that the sacraments are gifts and God does not confer the gifts only on people who took a class or wore a particular dress or passed a test… but as humans, we like to wrap up our important gifts, take classes to help us understand, try to create traditions that will make the recipient of the gift to take it seriously. I think that’s a valuable thing… to the extent that some parishes and dioceses do not pay attention to this, I pray that they will start.

Maybe the poster of this original question in this thread has a point, though… in the jewish faith, there is a particular ceremony, well known, with classes leading up to it, that signfies their right of passage. The ultimate faith-result may be different, but wouldn’t it be a good thing for our leadership to prescribe a specific procedure, classes leading up to it, measureable prerequisites for getting it?

We get specific and detailed, with significant and moving preparation for the ceremonies (which are well known beyond just members of the Catholic faith) in instances of baptism, marriage, confession, holy orders and last rites. But when it comes to confirmation? Sometimes the bishop does it, sometimes not. Sometimes it’s for older teens, sometimes elemetary school kids. Sometimes there is a specific uniform or dress, sometimes now. Heck, my husband recently got confirmed and I was surprised that something I thought was automatic… taking a new name of a saint… was not even discussed. The ceremony of it… the package that we wrap this gift in… is so haphazard, I have to think it would be nice if our leaders would create a more stable way of making it special.

I agree with this post. This has been my experience, generally. I am now in my third year of teaching preparation for the Sacrament of Confirmation. The best way that I know is by showing/living the example for my students, and hope that the Holy Spirit guides me.

 

[fastenatingguy]

Well, after reading all these posts…
it’s very disheartening to see that most people believe or have experienced NOTHING good from Confirmation in their teens.

We work really hard to make it instructive and meaningful as Religious educators.
We use the Catechism, a really good curriculum, we have the priest and the Deacons heavily involved, we plan a rich retreat, we challenge the Confirmandi to really research their patron saint and do an presentation about them for the entire class, we reinforce Reconciliation procedures and make sure they go, we have them doing community service based on the Corporal works of mercy individually and as a group, and our priest personally interviews each one to make sure they fully understand their faith. We expect to see them at Mass.

Can it possibly be that we are the only ones??? No way. I don’t buy that.
Are their parents that would care less, and think it’s a card that needs to be punched? YES.
But they are not my responsibility in class, those kids are. And we find, that when the kids are on fire, it awakens whatever is dormant in their parents. The teens go home and re-catechize their parents with lively discussion. As it is,after First Communion, many people disappear. And they take their kids with them.

I get why everyone wants the restored order. I don’t. But it would mean fewer educated Catholics in the pews. If they even showed up in the first place. We find people with so many skewed ideas of what the church teaches, or doe NOT teach…I would hate to lose all those impressionable kids…Confirmation is another chance for formation. Maybe that was not what it was intended for, but I would rather be aware of what was happening than to just have it happen to me.
I’m sure many will tell me how wrong I am. But I see it working in our parish. We have a wonderful group of involved teens that work with the homeless, fed the hungry, attend Adoration, and love the Mass.

ANOTHER post that I identify with personally.

I pray that you have continued success and that the children and their parents remain active. We have to do whatever it takes to spread the good word and let the kids know that they share in this responsibility.

 

[fastenatingguy]

That is regrettable alright. And what’s worse, kids can see through baloney a mile away.
Such a shame.
Probably parishes can’t afford a well trained DRE, and you have to be able to talk the eskimos into buying a refrigerator to talk some people into working with kids. I don’t get it.
Kids are not know-it-alls, kids are interested in learning the truth. They are not the demons that people make them out to be.
Most pre-teen and teens just want to know two things:

1. That you’ll always be straight with them.
2. That you love them. That you’re not there to hammer them, but to show them the right way to live and that you truly care and love them.

I pray that pastors everywhere take a long hard look at their programs.
And that good solidly catechized adult step up and offer to help teach.
Peace to you,
pianist

I’m not running for office…but I heartily approve of this post!