Why it is Dangerous Not to Believe in Purgatory

[Reformed]

Real quick…how come…it seems like every time you edit your posts? It is like you always get this second inspiration and have to add something! I like it! Or is it intentional in some weird way?

I just do not get the point you are trying to make.

So…Moses was saved by his works?

But they did not have faith in Christ dying on the cross. They know of God…not Jesus Christ.

I think we should consider the doctrine of justification and Abraham in Romans 4. The OT Saints and NT Saints were all part of the old humanity until God united them to Christ as redeemer. OT Saints look forward to the cross, and we look back to the cross.

BTW…adding to a post is like a regular conversation. Things come to mind later in the conversation.

 

[distracted]

I certainly do, and I like the two points you brought up. I have read, and to an extent tried to come to terms with purgatory, but I’m not quite there…yet (that’s a maybe ). But can I ask you this: what if the whole idea of purgatory is wrong? Would that make a difference to catholics? How would that affect your view of life after death? For us protestants, at least for me, it doesn’t much matter, so how 'bout you guys?

i haven’t read all the posts so hope i’m not repeating…

I would believe in Purgatory even if the Catholic Church didn’t teach it… because it IS so logical. If a person dies prematurely, s/he may have been “working out [his] salvation with fear & trembling” (Phil 2:12) but hadn’t gotten to where s/he needed to be in Christ. That soul would not be so bad as to warrant eternal Hell but not so pure as to merit (don’t like that word) Heaven… Rev 21:27 says that no impure thing will enter Heaven.

The main reason i believe in purgatory is that I believe in the Church that teaches it. The Cathlic Church is either the true Church founded on Earth by Christ or it is not. It cannot be that sometimes & not at others… It cannot teach absolute truth one day and falsehood the next… Jesus said he would protect his Church from the very gates of Hell (Satan, who is more powerful than any human…). I’ve studied history & theology & i know the Catholic Church is the one Christ established… (despite what Her members act like… uch: )… I just don’t question the church’s teachings anymore… but i used to before i knew what i know now… so i remember being where you are at… questioning…

What religion are you? about what age are you? just wondering… it would help me understand where you are at better…

thanks…

 

[distracted]

I see what you mean…though it is God’s grace that does everything. It is God’s grace that keeps hell into existence. (That’s how loving He is that He lets people choose to spend eternity away from Him. Sound cruel? They chose it. They are just getting what they wanted.)

yeah, i feel the same way… except that… from what i know of Hell… it seems somewhat “cruel” for it to last absolutely forever… It’s that forever thing that still bothers me… though i know how ugly sin is and not repenting thereof… and DO believe in Hell lasting forever… I just don’t WANT to believe that…

I know I’ll be surprised either way after dying when who knows what the heck happens afterward. I’ll be like…didn’t I just die?

yeah… i may be surprised myself… I don’t feel i am going to Hell, but i don’t feel i am going straight to Heaven either… were i to die right now… But God knows…

 

[distracted]

The logic of that certainly makes sense from a utilitarian perspective (i.e. you should believe in this because it produces desirable behavior outcomes), but that doesn’t establish its truth (or falsity) from a theological perspective.

i believe God gave us all a conscience to tell right from wrong. Even those raised in no Christian religion at all know the truth of at least some tenets of Christianity… (whether they want to admit it or not)…

The bible says this kind of thing in Romans… I thnk 1 or 2… that man is without excuse… because he can look around him and see… how God has made things (etc)…

Therefore, man’s logic is not always flawed… and to me, there is nothing more logical than Purgatory… and even if it were not so logical (to you, for instance)… a place of cleansing is mentioned in the New Test. Also mentioned there is the idea ofsalvation being an on-going thing… Many times it says “you will be saved”… “may be saved”… etc… The bible never says that when you accept Christ (whatever that means, objectively speaking…) you ARE saved… forever & ever, no matter what sins you commit…

 

[distracted]

I do not believe in Purgatory. .

oh wow… i am so shocked!!!

 

[distracted]

John 6:66 (interesting bit of numerology) involves the crowds acknowledging a hard teaching and abandoning Jesus.

Whether something is difficult to swallow or accept should have no basis in doctrine. It’s either true or it’s not; people either go to Heaven or Hell. The fact that it’s difficult to accept should really be beside the point.

so true… i don’t like the fact that democrats exist… but that doesn’t make them disappear!!

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

i believe God gave us all a conscience to tell right from wrong. Even those raised in no Christian religion at all know the truth of at least some tenets of Christianity… (whether they want to admit it or not)…

The bible says this kind of thing in Romans… I thnk 1 or 2… that man is without excuse… because he can look around him and see… how God has made things (etc)…

Therefore, man’s logic is not always flawed… and to me, there is nothing more logical than Purgatory… and even if it were not so logical (to you, for instance)… a place of cleansing is mentioned in the New Test. Also mentioned there is the idea ofsalvation being an on-going thing… Many times it says “you will be saved”… “may be saved”… etc… The bible never says that when you accept Christ (whatever that means, objectively speaking…) you ARE saved… forever & ever, no matter what sins you commit…

Isn’t “but man’s logic is flawed” the line Catholics continually bring against the Protestant belief that individuals can interpret scripture? You can’t have it both ways.

 

[distracted]

When Jesus went up the mountain to meet with Moses and Elijah, where were they conjured from?

good point… thanks for more ammo against Protestants…

they weren’t in Heaven because Jesus hadn’t ascended yet… hadn’t even died on the Cross yet…

hmmm…

 

[distracted]

NO, I see no logic for purgatory if Christ atoned for our sins. Do you believe Christ atoned for your sins, why or why not?

and we accept that atonement fully (with all our beings, heart & soul)… when we are in Purgatory… or i should say when we are DONE with Purgatory.

 

[distracted]

If OT Saints were not saved by the cross, then how were OT Saints saved from their sins?

Galatians 3:8

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”

some things only God knows… but they were NOT in Heaven… No one went to Heaven before Jesus died on the Cross (which fact should give us pause to consider… how horrible sin really is… & how terribly it offends a holy God)

 

[reteeks21]

good point… thanks for more ammo against Protestants…

they weren’t in Heaven because Jesus hadn’t ascended yet… hadn’t even died on the Cross yet…

hmmm…

Wow. I didn’t realize we were in a war. But hey, at least I know who to watch out for now.

 

[distracted]

Here’s more about Moses and his knowledge of Christ.

23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. 24 By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them. - Hebrews 11

ob

So??

 

[tGette]

yeah, i feel the same way… except that… from what i know of Hell… it seems somewhat “cruel” for it to last absolutely forever… It’s that forever thing that still bothers me… though i know how ugly sin is and not repenting thereof… and DO believe in Hell lasting forever… I just don’t WANT to believe that…

yeah… i may be surprised myself… I don’t feel i am going to Hell, but i don’t feel i am going straight to Heaven either… were i to die right now… But God knows…

I often wonder about what Hell is like.

I know it would be eternal suffering because it would be eternal seperation from God. What I think about it, is that maybe people still “enjoy” themselves in hell. Just as people enjoy earth without God (even though their materialism, etc. is only a fleeting imperfect pleasure) they would still have some happiness. It would only be the happiness that the created world can bring. And as we know, living for the created world now and not for the Creator end up making us feel empty or wanting more.

So maybe Hell is this constant dissatisfaction with everything because the regular pleasure do not full satisfy. In Hell it is the eternal longing to fill the void in their heart, but they refuse to do it with God.

Basically, God is so loving that He gives them everything they want while in Hell, but it never makes them actually happy because they do not want Him.

Am I making any sense? I kind of rambled.

 

[distracted]

Let me ask: (for those who do not believe Purgatory to be real)

Why is belief in Purgatory somehow “saying” that the death of Christ on the cross is deficient or something like that? (However it might be worded by someone. Sorry if MY wording was bad.)

!

yeah, that’s what i don’t get… as if being purged by Christ in purgatory is somehow… not as good as being purged here on Earth…

Well, Jesus wants us to purge ourselves here… but if we aren’t finished by the time of our death… He is merciful…

 

[distracted]

I think we should consider the doctrine of justification and Abraham in Romans 4. The OT Saints and NT Saints were all part of the old humanity until God united them to Christ as redeemer. OT Saints look forward to the cross, and we look back to the cross.
.

that doesn’t answer the question of where they were until the Resurrection?

 

[distracted]

Isn’t “but man’s logic is flawed” the line Catholics continually bring against the Protestant belief that individuals can interpret scripture? You can’t have it both ways.

many scriptures are easy to understand. A child can understand maybe 75% of the New Testament… But wahat about the other 25%? should we just throw it out if we don’t understand it? And besides, now that i think about it, i think only about 60% is “easy” to understand… but i guess the exact % is not important…

The Catholic Church also teaches that to whatever extent Protestants agree w/ Catholics, they are orthodox in their beliefs… Most christian churches are considered by the RCC as being part of Her… The only ones that are not part of the Catholic Church (albeit indirectly & imperfectly) are the mormons, jw’s and various ther cults…

My main point is that man’s ability to understand truth is not as… “messed up” as some tend to imply…

 

[distracted]

Wow. I didn’t realize we were in a war. But hey, at least I know who to watch out for now.

One who loves truth and hates error is ALWAYS in a war…

(I fight not Protestants but Protestantism)

 

[reteeks21]

yeah, that’s what i don’t get… as if being purged by Christ in purgatory is somehow… not as good as being purged here on Earth…

Well, Jesus wants us to purge ourselves here… but if we aren’t finished by the time of our death… He is merciful…

I guess the dividing line is that we see being “purged” as already completed by the death of Christ (but keep in mind that I am not saying that catholics don’t think that). Now, that doesn’t mean we have a license to run around like roosters in a hen house, but it does mean we should and are called to live a life of obedience to Christ BECAUSE of His purging of our sins. I guess we could say it like this: if we are already purged why do we need to get purged again? I know, redneck way of saying it, but at least it’s simple and to the point.

BTW, did you by chance see the question I asked you at the beginning of the thread? I’m not sure if you were able to take a look at it yet, but if you could would you shoot me a response? Thanks.

 

[distracted]

I often wonder about what Hell is like.

I know it would be eternal suffering because it would be eternal seperation from God. What I think about it, is that maybe people still “enjoy” themselves in hell. Just as people enjoy earth without God (even though their materialism, etc. is only a fleeting imperfect pleasure) they would still have some happiness. It would only be the happiness that the created world can bring. And as we know, living for the created world now and not for the Creator end up making us feel empty or wanting more.

So maybe Hell is this constant dissatisfaction with everything because the regular pleasure do not full satisfy. In Hell it is the eternal longing to fill the void in their heart, but they refuse to do it with God.

Basically, God is so loving that He gives them everything they want while in Hell, but it never makes them actually happy because they do not want Him.

Am I making any sense? I kind of rambled.

i used to think the same thing but then i got “enlightened”… i read some things by the saints about Hell… st. Faustina has what i feel is the best description - found in her Diary #741. there is no happiness in Heaven at all… Separation from God involves separation from all the good that He created… People who love the “creature more than the Creator” are not rewarded for their bad choice… people who choose sin over God are saying that they want all his “goodies” but not Him… but as the saying goes, you can’t take it with you… According to St. Faustina (and others) that is more true thn anyone may care to admit…

Sin is ugly and hideous… separation from God is (ditto)… Sin disfigures the soul & makes it repugnant to God and to other (Christian) souls… In Rev 21:27, it says that “no impure thing” will enter Heaven…

 

[tGette]

i used to think the same thing but then i got “enlightened”… i read some things by the saints about Hell… st. Faustina has what i feel is the best description - found in her Diary #741.there is no happiness in Heaven at all.. (I hope you meant Hell ) Separation from God involves separation from all the good that He created… People who love the “creature more than the Creator” are not rewarded for their bad choice… people who choose sin over God are saying that they want all his “goodies” but not Him… but as the saying goes, you can’t take it with you… According to St. Faustina (and others) that is more true thn anyone may care to admit…

Sin is ugly and hideous… separation from God is (ditto)… Sin disfigures the soul & makes it repugnant to God and to other (Christian) souls… In Rev 21:27, it says that “no impure thing” will enter Heaven…

Yeah, you’re right! Thanks for passing the enlightenment to me!
**
I love Faustina! She’s my role model!**

Though…I hope you meant HELL and not HEAVEN above. “there is no happiness in Heaven at all” Man…if that is the case, I do not want to go to Heaven! LOL!!!