Why it is Dangerous Not to Believe in Purgatory

[RNRobert]

I would believe in Purgatory even if the Catholic Church didn’t teach it… because it IS so logical.

I’m a great fan of C.S. Lewis. While he was not Catholic, he did believe in Purgatory. Here are some quotes from Letters to Malcolm. one of his books:

“Though even in heaven some perpetual increase of beatitude, reached by a continually more ecstatic self-surrender, without the possiblity of failure but without it’s own ardours and exertions- for delight also has it’s severities and steep ascents as lovers know -might be supposed. But I won’t press, or guess, that side for the moment. I believe in purgatory.”

"Our souls demand purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, “It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy?” Should we not reply, “With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleaned first.” “It may hurt, you know” “Even so, sir.” "

"I assume that the process purification will normally involve suffering. Partly from tradition; partly because most real good that has been done me in this life has involved it.’

 

[distracted]

I need more time with Jesus! Do you get to visit Him daily?

For a long time i was not able… but lately, i have been going to the trouble of being with Him as often as possible. During this one period in my life a few yrs ago… i was going there every day… and looking back, i see tht was one of the most blessed times of my entire life… I realized something was terribly wrong in not spending that kind of time with Him, so made an effort … and God even seemed to be helping me… (long story…). Whenever i am with Him There… I feel i could actually LIVE there for the rest of my life and be perfectly happy… that i would never miss anything “out there”… the world, the flesh and the devill… can look so “good”… but it is NOT good… nothing “out there” is comparable to Jesus… I suppose that goes w/o saying… but… we humans tend to forget such things… if left to our own devices… . Sorry if you already answered this question… but do you spend much time There??

thanks & God bless…

 

[RNRobert]

I recall reading this in the daily Scripture readings some time ago:

When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of burning(Isaiah 4:4, RSV).

Purification through fire is a common theme in Scripture.

John the Baptist told his listeners that Jesus would baptize “with the Spirit and with fire” (Matthew 3:11).

St. Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 that our works will be tested with fire.

As Scott Hahn writes in Rome Sweet Home, “There’s the fire of hell, but then there’s and infinitely hotter fire in heaven; it’s God himself.” As Scripture confirms: Our God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29; see also Deuteronomy 4:24).

St Peter tells us to endure our trials “so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire, may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:7).

I think this explains Purgatory the best: as a refiner’s fire that burns off all the dross of sin and self-love so that our souls are pure. Of course, the better we endure our trials and strive for holiness while alive, the less purgation we will have to undergo before entering heaven.

Many Protestants object to Purgatory because they think it nullifies the finished work of Jesus on the cross.
Paragraph 1478 of the CCC says “…the ‘treasury of the church’ is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ’s merits have before God” (Emphasis mine). Jesus’ death on the cross was more than enough to pay for our sins. The problem is that oftentimes we resist God’s grace working in our lives. I remember listening to a Protestant radio preacher some years ago who commented that he heard Christians asking for more grace. His reply was that we had all the grace we need, but that we didn’t respond to it. Scripture confirms this. Mark 6:5-6 tells us that when Jesus was in Nazareth, “he was unable to perform any mighty deeds there” due to the people’s lack of faith. Jesus was able to heal the man born blind, but could do nothing for the spiritual blindness of the Pharisees (John 9). In Catholic theology, Jesus’ death doesn’t merely cover up our sins, but transforms us, but we have to allow God to work in our lives.

 

[onenow1]

Hi,All
“…Woe is me, because I have held my peace; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people that has unclean lips, and I have seen with my eyes the King of the Lord of Hosts. And one of the Seraphims flew to me, and in his hand was a live coal, which he had taken with the tongs off the altar. And he touched my mouth and said, ‘BEHOLD THIS HAS TOUCHED YOUR LIPS, AND YOUR INIQUITIES SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY, AND YOUR SIN SHALL BE CLEANSED’.” Isaiah 6:5-7
What can this possibly mean other than a purgation of sins through fire?

In 1Peter 3:19, Christ preached to the spirits in prison. What spirits? What prison? We will become pure spirits only after we die, so the spirits have to be the spirits of the dead. Prison cannot mean Heaven, and souls in hell are lost forever. Prison must mean a third place.
1Peter 4:6, the Gospel was preached “even to the dead”. Again, where were these dead?

Peace,onenow1

 

[distracted]

"Our souls demand purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, “It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy?” Should we not reply, “With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleaned first.” “It may hurt, you know” “Even so, sir.” "

i don’t think God gives us a choice becsause, if we were allowed inot Heaven AS is… it would no longer be Heaven… it would be imperfect… Sin would be there (the consequneces thereof).

"I assume that the process purification will normally involve suffering. Partly from tradition; partly because most real good that has been done me in this life has involved it.’

I believe Purgatory is painful not becaue God is a mean tyrant but because of what happens when we sin: we get attached to sin, we become comfortable in it… we justify it… rationalize it… and if we are not careful, pretty soon we just don’t even see that some things are sin any longer… True, if we do… all that but still keep trying our best to be in Christ… and stay faithful to Him we will go to Purg not Hell… but i bleieve we will have a longer Purg if we don’t… snap out of that complacency… that tendecy to rationalize… (etc)… & start some kind of expiation… because if we excuse ourselves for this little sin or that little sin, we are dirtying up our souls… whether we see it or not… & we humans are good at “blinding oursleves” to our defects and sins… I know i am…
Anyway… i am in Purg now and anyone who follows Crhist w/ all his heart is going to be There… because it is painful to love Christ in a world that does not… Jesus said we would be persecuted and “hated by all”… because of Him… I have never been so hated (by all) in my entire life… & that kind of thing is NOT fun… (though Jesus tells us to rejoice when we are persecuted… ) I don’t rejoice very often…

God bless…

 

[distracted]

So if I attacked catholicism (which I don’t) but said I wasn’t attacking catholics, that would be okay with you? You wouldn’t be offended? You could see the difference?

of course…

you would definitely not be the first either, i might add…

 

[distracted]

I believe in purgatory. If it’s not in the bible, then it is in some Christian book/s that could have been in the bible. Some people say that the book/s that mention purgatory were left out the bible, so people would have more fear of going to hell.

i made a mistake (doesn’t happen very often… but anyway )… i thought you said that you DON"T believe in Purgatory… (my eyes are not good & i am always in a h urry)… so anyway, i gave you all those scripture passages for “nothing”…

But hey… maybe you didn’t have all of them… ? I just learned that last one recently. I believe there are far more Purg scriptures than most Catholics realize…

God bless…

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

Purgatory IS in the Bible… or i should say it is strongly alluded to there…

1 Cor 3:13… St. Mt 18:23… Rev 21:27 , St Mt 12:32…

and there is that one passage about how the person who didn’t know much (about living right) will be beaten with less stripes than the one who knew a lot… implying that both will be “purged” (as gold in fire)

Ok, let’s go through those passages:

1 Corinthians 3:10-15

“According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.”

A few things stand out:

– first of all, doesn’t the doctrine of Purgatory talk about an ongoing phenomenon, where each soul enters Purgatory as they die? How would that square with the phrasing here which talks of a single day in which the works of all men are tested (which would presumably be judgment day).

– the passage does not talk about people passing through fire, but rather separates out their works as that which is passed through the flames.

Mathhew 18:21-35

"Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?”

Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. The servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded. His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’ But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened. Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”

The doctrine of Purgatory doesn’t really make sense in terms of this passage. In the passage, the which the unmerciful servant owed to the king was far more than they would ever be able to pay off. Furthermore, the king pronounced that they would be tortured until they were able to pay back the debt. Since the debt was completely beyond the servant’s means, the sentenced pronounced is one of eternal torture. How does this relate to the idea of Purgatory, which would seem to invoke the idea that ther is some debt which is within our means to pay, or at a minimum that God intends to pay it for us (another thing I’m uncertain of…who is paying the debt in Purgatory, us or God?).

Revelation 21:27

“Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

I agree with this statement of course, I simply don’t buy the idea that Jesus’ sacrifice is insufficient to purify us.

Matthew 12:32

“Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”

Is the supposed relevance of this passage the implication that sins may be forgiven in the age to come? Even if we accept that premise, if our sins are forgiven, what is there to be purified? If a debt is forgiven the debtor is not still required to pay what is owed, are they? Rather, it is as though they had never owed money at all. If they are required to pay the debt, then they never were forgiven, were they?

 

[distracted]

1 Corinthians 3:10-15"According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."
first of all, doesn’t the doctrine of Purgatory talk about an ongoing phenomenon, where each soul enters Purgatory as they die? How would that square with the phrasing here which talks of a single day in which the works of all men are tested (which would presumably be judgment day).

What are you talking about?? It says right there that HE himself will be saved (notice: WILL Be… not IS saved)… yet so as trhough fire… It does not say anything about his works going through a fire…

– the passage does not talk about people passing through fire, but rather separates out their works as that which is passed through the flames.

don’t know where you get that…

Mathhew 18:21-35

Jesus answered…Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. The servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded. His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’ But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened. Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."
Purgatory doesn’t really make sense in terms of this passage. In the passage, the which the unmerciful servant owed to the king was far more than they would ever be able to pay off.

The more we sin, the more debt we have to pay off… for damaging our souls and the souls of others… All of us owe the King … far more than we can pay. But God is merciful & gives us a chance to purify ourselves… work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Phil 2:12)

Furthermore, the king pronounced that they would be tortured until they were able to pay back the debt. Since the debt was completely beyond the servant’s means, the sentenced pronounced is one of eternal torture.

Not necessarily. None of us can work off all our debt of sin… but God’s grace does enter into the picture… and i don’t believe he makes us pay down to the last cent… and if He does… as in this passage, it is only because we are so stubborn and, as the servant in the parable, unforgiving toward others…

How does this relate to the idea of Purgatory, which would seem to invoke the idea that ther is some debt which is within our means to pay, or at a minimum that God intends to pay it for us (another thing I’m uncertain of…who is paying the debt in Purgatory, us or God?).

i believe it is both… I believe Purgatory is we sinners working with God for purification/holiness… to the extent we did not “finish” doing so here on Earth…

Revelation 21:27

“Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

I agree with this statement of course, I simply don’t buy the idea that Jesus’ sacrifice is insufficient to purify us.

Neither do i…

Matthew 12:32

“Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”

Is the supposed relevance of this passage the implication that sins may be forgiven in the age to come? Even if we accept that premise, if our sins are forgiven, what is there to be purified?

i am not sure i am following you. Jesus says there is forgiveness in the age to come (for all those who do not say NO to God’s forgiveness… namely Jesus Christ).

If a debt is forgiven the debtor is not still required to pay what is owed, are they?

If someone (especially someone with $) broke your front window… you would forgive him, as a Christian… but would you just let him get away with not paying for it? Justice requires that the window be replaced… God is perfectly just…

Rather, it is as though they had never owed money at all. If they are required to pay the debt, then they never were forgiven, were they?

the passage says that the debt was forgiven entirely… The king forgave far more thn the servant even asked for…

 

[justasking4]

Ok, let’s go through those passages:

1 Corinthians 3:10-15

“According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.”

A few things stand out:

– first of all, doesn’t the doctrine of Purgatory talk about an ongoing phenomenon, where each soul enters Purgatory as they die? How would that square with the phrasing here which talks of a single day in which the works of all men are tested (which would presumably be judgment day).

– the passage does not talk about people passing through fire, but rather separates out their works as that which is passed through the flames.

Mathhew 18:21-35

"Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?”

Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. The servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded. His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’ But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened. Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”

The doctrine of Purgatory doesn’t really make sense in terms of this passage. In the passage, the which the unmerciful servant owed to the king was far more than they would ever be able to pay off. Furthermore, the king pronounced that they would be tortured until they were able to pay back the debt. Since the debt was completely beyond the servant’s means, the sentenced pronounced is one of eternal torture. How does this relate to the idea of Purgatory, which would seem to invoke the idea that ther is some debt which is within our means to pay, or at a minimum that God intends to pay it for us (another thing I’m uncertain of…who is paying the debt in Purgatory, us or God?).

Revelation 21:27

“Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

I agree with this statement of course, I simply don’t buy the idea that Jesus’ sacrifice is insufficient to purify us.

Matthew 12:32

“Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”

Is the supposed relevance of this passage the implication that sins may be forgiven in the age to come? Even if we accept that premise, if our sins are forgiven, what is there to be purified? If a debt is forgiven the debtor is not still required to pay what is owed, are they? Rather, it is as though they had never owed money at all. If they are required to pay the debt, then they never were forgiven, were they?

You make some good points. I would also add Colossians 2:13-14 which says:
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

How can anything be held against us if all our transgressions have been forgiven?

I John 1:7 speaks of the cleansing power of the blood of Christ that cleanses us from all sin…
but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

What are you talking about?? It says right there that HE himself will be saved (notice: WILL Be… not IS saved)… yet so as trhough fire… It does not say anything about his works going through a fire…

Read the passage again. Particularly “the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work”. The fire in the passage is testing what the man built, it says so right in the text.

don’t know where you get that… The more we sin, the more debt we have to pay off… for damaging our souls and the souls of others… All of us owe the King … far more than we can pay. But God is merciful & gives us a chance to purify ourselves… work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Phil 2:12) Not necessarily. None of us can work off all our debt of sin… but God’s grace does enter into the picture… and i don’t believe he makes us pay down to the last cent… and if He does… as in this passage, it is only because we are so stubborn and, as the servant in the parable, unforgiving toward others… i believe it is both… I believe Purgatory is we sinners working with God for purification/holiness… to the extent we did not “finish” doing so here on Earth…

…but if we cannot possibly pay off our debts, then why have us pay off some of it? Later on you say that God’s justice demands that we pay our debts, but if we only pay a small portion of our debt, how is that just?

Neither do i… i am not sure i am following you. Jesus says there is forgiveness in the age to come (for all those who do not say NO to God’s forgiveness… namely Jesus Christ). If someone (especially someone with $) broke your front window… you would forgive him, as a Christian… but would you just let him get away with not paying for it? Justice requires that the window be replaced… God is perfectly just…

Jesus himself ties up the language of forgiveness with that of debts. In the parable itself to forgive a debt is to release the person from their obligation to repay it…do you disagree with what is meant by forgiveness in the parable?

the passage says that the debt was forgiven entirely… The king forgave far more thn the servant even asked for…

…but at the end of the story the king revokes his cancellation of the debt (his forgiveness), demanding that it be paid in full.

 

[reteeks21]

of course…

you would definitely not be the first either, i might add…

Of course it would be ok, or of course you would be offended?

And I did not attack anything about you, so don’t assume I will join a long line of haters.

 

[SANxJONERO]

i made a mistake (doesn’t happen very often… but anyway )… i thought you said that you DON"T believe in Purgatory… (my eyes are not good & i am always in a h urry)… so anyway, i gave you all those scripture passages for “nothing”…

But hey… maybe you didn’t have all of them… ? I just learned that last one recently. I believe there are far more Purg scriptures than most Catholics realize…

God bless…

I wouldn’t say for nothing, so thank’s.

 

[guanophore]

You make some good points. I would also add Colossians 2:13-14 which says:
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

How can anything be held against us if all our transgressions have been forgiven?

I think “held against us” is not the right way to characterize it. God wants to cleanse us not only from the sins themselves, but from their effects. He wants to heal that which was damaged by the wrongdoing, and restore us and those around us to the relationships He designed. For example, a man drinks heavily for years, beats his wife and children, loses his job and most of his health, and in the end, his family. He goes into treatment, gets sober, and gets his life right with God. God forgives him for his years of sins. After he gets out of treatment, being forgiven and reconciled with God, now he is faced with the consequences of his actions. He wants to get his family back, and go back to work, and regain his health. God wants all these things too.

I John 1:7 speaks of the cleansing power of the blood of Christ that cleanses us from all sin…
but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Indeed! and some of that cleansing occurs after the sin is forgiven. Catholics call it cleasing with fire (purgation). It can happen in this life, or in the next, but it WILL happen! Nothing unclean is allowed in heaven.

 

[distracted]

How can anything be held against us if all our transgressions have been forgiven?

I John 1:7 speaks of the cleansing power of the blood of Christ that cleanses us from all sin…
but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Jesus’ blood cleanses on Earth and in Purgatory.

and Just because one is forgiven, doens’t mean one doesn’t need cleansing…

If someone punched you in the nose, then asked for forgiveness… you would forgive, but wouldn’t you want him to pay the doctor bill (assuming you didn’t have full medical insurance coverage)??

 

[distracted]

Read the passage again. Particularly “the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work”. The fire in the passage is testing what the man built, it says so right in the text.

i don’t understand why you are arguing this point… Fire is fire and it burns and purifies… and humans have to go through that now and in the next life (if they not been sufficiently purified to enter Heaven… where no impure thing will enter). Why is that so hard to understand/???

…but if we cannot possibly pay off our debts, then why have us pay off some of it?

i don’t understand this question… Who said anything about paying off a debt only in part???

Later on you say that God’s justice demands that we pay our debts, but if we only pay a small portion of our debt, how is that just?

again… No comprendo…

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

i don’t understand why you are arguing this point… Fire is fire and it burns and purifies… and humans have to go through that now and in the next life (if they not been sufficiently purified to enter Heaven… where no impure thing will enter). Why is that so hard to understand/???

We were discussing a specific passage in scripture…that passage talks about a man’s works being subjected to fire. You’re jumping straight to doctrine instead of looking at what the passage actually says.

i don’t understand this question… Who said anything about paying off a debt only in part???

again… No comprendo…

You said:

If someone (especially someone with $) broke your front window… you would forgive him, as a Christian… but would you just let him get away with not paying for it? Justice requires that the window be replaced… God is perfectly just…

Not necessarily. None of us can work off all our debt of sin… but God’s grace does enter into the picture… and i don’t believe he makes us pay down to the last cent…

At one point you said that God’s justice requires that we fully pay off our debts, and at another you say that God doesn’t require that we fully pay for our debts. Those two statements are incompatible.

Furthermore, I think you’ve got a mistaken notion of forgiveness. To forgive someone is to release them of their obligations to you. If they wish to make restitution anyway they may find it helpful, but if you still feel that they owe you something then you have not fully forgiven them.

 

[distracted]

We were discussing a specific passage in scripture…that passage talks about a man’s works being subjected to fire. You’re jumping straight to doctrine instead of looking at what the passage actually says.

well, you are “jumping” also… because you are not (to me) making much sense…

At one point you said that God’s justice requires that we fully pay off our debts, and at another you say that God doesn’t require that we fully pay for our debts. Those two statements are incompatible.

No, they are not… For one thing, i did not say this. you are putting words in my mouth. To say that God is merciful and allows us time to get “pure”… is true. It is also true that God is just. Do i know how God reconciles justice and mercy in his judgment of human beings?? NO! But i know that if there were no Purgatory, you could not say God is merciful… when, as stated, he allows no impure thing into Heaven…

Furthermore, I think you’ve got a mistaken notion of forgiveness. To forgive someone is to release them of their obligations to you. If they wish to make restitution anyway they may find it helpful, but if you still feel that they owe you something then you have not fully forgiven them.

Good, the next time someone steals you blind and commits crimes against all your loved ones… i will hope to hear that you totally forgave and didn’t call the police…

 

[justasking4]

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Originally Posted by justasking4
How can anything be held against us if all our transgressions have been forgiven?

I John 1:7 speaks of the cleansing power of the blood of Christ that cleanses us from all sin…
but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

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Jesus’ blood cleanses on Earth and in Purgatory.

Where in the doctrine of purgatory has the church offically connected I John 1:7 with purgatory?
Secondly, I John 1:7 says nothing of our expierence after death but rather with our condition here in this world.

and Just because one is forgiven, doens’t mean one doesn’t need cleansing…

Thats why both these truths go together at the same time. One who is forgiven is also cleansed at the same time.

If someone punched you in the nose, then asked for forgiveness… you would forgive, but wouldn’t you want him to pay the doctor bill (assuming you didn’t have full medical insurance coverage)??

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

Good, the next time someone steals you blind and commits crimes against all your loved ones… i will hope to hear that you totally forgave and didn’t call the police…

“But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.” – Luke 6:27-31

No one said forgiveness is easy, I’ve failed at it plenty myself. In fact, that’s why Jesus’ statement that we must not forgive merely seven times, but seventy times seven was so astounding, He seemed to be asking the impossible!

I’m not just pulling this out of thin air, any definition you look at will include the statement the forgiveness is a releasing of obligation. Here’s a couple of examples:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgiveness
answers.com/forgiveness

Jesus’ teachings on forgiveness were no less than a call to radical love.