Why it is Dangerous Not to Believe in Purgatory

[distracted]

Where in the doctrine of purgatory has the church offically connected I John 1:7 with purgatory?

i don’t fully u/stand this question…

Secondly, I John 1:7 says nothing of our expierence after death but rather with our condition here in this world.

says who? You? Well, Jesus didn’t tell me that the gates of Hell would not pevail against YOU…

Thats why both these truths go together at the same time. One who is forgiven is also cleansed at the same time.

Not so… and the bible says so… don’t you believe the Bible???

you couldn’t answer that one, could you? If someone broke your nose… you know you would want him to pay the doctor bill… That is justice. Do you believe God is perfectly just???

 

[distracted]

“But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.” – Luke 6:27-31

for one thing, this scripure passage says nothing about if someone commits a terrible crime against you, you should not do all in your power to… protect yourself… &/or get some semblance of justice… But even agreeing that it does say that (maybe it does…)… that does not mean that God won’t seek justice with that person in the next life. Someone can do you wrong & you can totally write the whole debt off… & i agree that a really good Christian would do this… but that doesn’t mean the person gets away with what he has done with God…

There is that passage (i believe in a daily Mass reading coming up?) about how the one who did not know the will of God will be beaten with fewer stripes than the one who did know God’s will and didnt’ do it… To whom more is given, more is required… The meaning is clear: that ALL will receive “stripes” for their sins… but the one who knew more (knew the Word better) but sinned anyway… will receive more “stripes” … (Purgatory)

'm not just pulling this out of thin air, any definition you look at will include the statement the forgiveness is a releasing of obligation.

i believe that if a person is really “in love with God” and tries to obey all of what he commands, God will not require that that person be… totally… “perfect” to enter Heaven… His “perfection” is his great love… But i could be wrong. I mean, the Word says that no impure thing will enter… In any case, it is not for us sinful humans to judge… and making statements about how God judges can often go into the realm of “judging”… even judging God… and i am not going to “go there” All i know is that he balances his justice with mercy…

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

Someone can do you wrong & you can totally write the whole debt off… & i agree that a really good Christian would do this… but that doesn’t mean the person gets away with what he has done with God…

Surely you are not suggesting that God is unable or unwilling to forgive us our sins, so what does such a statement mean in the context of God’s forgiveness?

i believe that if a person is really “in love with God” and tries to obey all of what he commands, God will not require that that person be… totally… “perfect” to enter Heaven… His “perfection” is his great love… But i could be wrong. I mean, the Word says that no impure thing will enter… In any case, it is not for us sinful humans to judge… and making statements about how God judges can often go into the realm of “judging”… even judging God… and i am not going to “go there” All i know is that he balances his justice with mercy…

Well, if you’re determined not to make statements about how God judges, then the wisest course of action would seem to be not to attempt to bind others on the issue of Purgatory.

 

[distracted]

Surely you are not suggesting that God is unable or unwilling to forgive us our sins, so what does such a statement mean in the context of God’s forgiveness?

there you go putting words inot my mouth (happens a lot on this forum )… You Protestants are the ones who believe forgiveness and expiation are one and the same… Tehy are NOT. And if i (and others here) have not succeeded in convincing you of the biblical proofs of Purgatory (not that all truth is in the Bible…we must have the Church also…) then i give up…

Well, if you’re determined not to make statements about how God judges, then the wisest course of action would seem to be not to attempt to bind others on the issue of Purgatory.

hmm… thanks for giving me all t hat power… I thought God was the one who “bind others on the issue of Purgatory”…

Purgatory either exists or it doesn’t… It doesn’t go away just because you don’t believe in it…

But again… i think i am going to give up… you aren’t listening and/or… just don’t “get it” or whatever… but i get the feeling i am wasting my time…

My feelings have been wrong before… but… right now they are all i have to go on… .:whacky: God bless…

 

[distracted]

Surely you are not suggesting that God is unable or unwilling to forgive us our sins, so what does such a statement mean in the context of God’s forgiveness?

Well, if you’re determined not to make statements about how God judges, then the wisest course of action would seem to be not to attempt to bind others on the issue of Purgatory.

just as i suspected… you have no real response to my assertions…

 

[distracted]

Surely you are not suggesting that God is unable or unwilling to forgive us our sins, so what does such a statement mean in the context of God’s forgiveness?

have you read St. Faustina’s account of Hell? (Diary 741). She says that Jesus took her there… and i bleieve her… because she is a canonized saint… (Do you know how hard it is to be one ofthose??) . And also because it just sounds like all the other accounts of Hell i have heard (even from Protestants)… In any case, at some point in her visit to Purgatory… Jesus told her that He did not “want this” but that justice requires it…

 

[guanophore]

We were discussing a specific passage in scripture…that passage talks about a man’s works being subjected to fire. You’re jumping straight to doctrine instead of looking at what the passage actually says.

At one point you said that God’s justice requires that we fully pay off our debts, and at another you say that God doesn’t require that we fully pay for our debts. Those two statements are incompatible.

I think we are talking past one another. Jesus forgives forever, completely, the eternal consequences of our sins when we confess them/repent of them. However, temporal consequences of our sins remain, and like a good Father, God wants us to grow up in every way unto Him. The restoration and reparation for the temporal consequences of sin is part of our healing and sanctification. Not all people are perfectly healed at death, and still need more purification so that any attachment to the sin nature is taken away. Jesus does this for us because we are saved, and because He loves us.

Furthermore, I think you’ve got a mistaken notion of forgiveness. To forgive someone is to release them of their obligations to you. If they wish to make restitution anyway they may find it helpful, but if you still feel that they owe you something then you have not fully forgiven them.

No, I think it is you that has the mistaken notion. Forgiveness actually obligates a person more. To those who have been given much, much is required. Remember the parables that Jesus tells about persons who have been forgiven, and how they love more as a result? Remember the woman who washed His feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair? Her sins " which are many" were forgiven. She loved much.

Jesus also told the woman caught in adultery “go, and sin no more”. John the Baptist told the people “bear fruit that befits repentance”. The fact that people “owe” when their sins are forgiven is a result of God’s justice, and that He wants us to bear that fruit is part of what the purgation is about.

 

[RNRobert]

I think we are talking past one another. Jesus forgives forever, completely, the eternal consequences of our sins when we confess them/repent of them. However, temporal consequences of our sins remain, and like a good Father, God wants us to grow up in every way unto Him. The restoration and reparation for the temporal consequences of sin is part of our healing and sanctification. Not all people are perfectly healed at death, and still need more purification so that any attachment to the sin nature is taken away. Jesus does this for us because we are saved, and because He loves us.

Also, Hebrews 12 tells us that God chastises those whom he loves.

 

[guanophore]

Also, Hebrews 12 tells us that God chastises those whom he loves.

This is true, and is a theme throughout the OT and NT. God’s intention to create a Holy people for Himself has never changed.

Neither has humanity’s need for sanctification.

Protestants believe in Purgatory too, they just don’t think of it that way. Even the most “grace alone” person will agree that nothing unclean can enter heaven, and that Jesus cleanses us from all sins, so that we can enter. Most believe that this happens at the moment of death "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye’, as the scripture describes our transformation on the Last Day. Some believe that we are “asleep” until the last judgement, and it happens at that time, but we all agree that we need to be purified.

Rev 3:18-20
" I reprove and discipline those whom I love. Be earnest, therefore, and repent."

Phil 1:10
“…so that in the day of Christ you may be pure and blameless…”

 

[justasking4]

i don’t fully u/stand this question… says who? You? Well, Jesus didn’t tell me that the gates of Hell would not pevail against YOU… Not so… and the bible says so… don’t you believe the Bible???

you couldn’t answer that one, could you? If someone broke your nose… you know you would want him to pay the doctor bill… That is justice. Do you believe God is perfectly just???

The payment for the borken nose was paid by Christ on the cross. Christ alone is the only One Who could pay that price.

 

[guanophore]

The payment for the borken nose was paid by Christ on the cross. Christ alone is the only One Who could pay that price.

Such a statement reflects a deficient understanding of sin, and reparation. The reason there is an eternal consequence for breaking someone’s nose is because “whatever you do to the least, that you have done unto me”. Love does no wrong to a neighbor, so this wrong is a failure of love, which is an offense against God.

However, if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just, and will forgive them. However, obtaining God’s forgiveness does nothing for the victim, who should also be asked for forgiveness. It also does nothing about the broken nose. There was a fight here today where I work. One person broke the other persons’ nose. The two had to be separated, there was a lot of blood everywhere. Medical help had to be called, the housekeeping had to clean the biohazard, etc. The act of breaking the nose created consequences on many levels for many people. Though Jesus will forgive the sin, for which He has paid the price, these temporal consequences are still here. Jesus did not make the broken nose disappear, nor did He make the blood on the porch disappear. These things have to be addressed by people. Catholics call this “making reparation”.

 

[onenow1]

The payment for the borken nose was paid by Christ on the cross. Christ alone is the only One Who could pay that price.

=onenow1, yup ! He paid for the broken covenant of Adam, the original disobediance, that was inherited by all, and actual sins that we have committed before baptism. After baptism were on our own,with the grace of God we must repent if we sin, Isn’t this what Jesus commanded, whose sins you forgive they are forgiven, or retained they are retained.

Peace, onenow1izza:

 

[distracted]

Such a statement reflects a deficient understanding of sin, and reparation. The reason there is an eternal consequence for breaking someone’s nose is because “whatever you do to the least, that you have done unto me”. Love does no wrong to a neighbor, so this wrong is a failure of love, which is an offense against God.

However, if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just, and will forgive them. However, obtaining God’s forgiveness does nothing for the victim, who should also be asked for forgiveness. It also does nothing about the broken nose. There was a fight here today where I work. One person broke the other persons’ nose. The two had to be separated, there was a lot of blood everywhere. Medical help had to be called, the housekeeping had to clean the biohazard, etc. The act of breaking the nose created consequences on many levels for many people. Though Jesus will forgive the sin, for which He has paid the price, these temporal consequences are still here. Jesus did not make the broken nose disappear, nor did He make the blood on the porch disappear. These things have to be addressed by people. Catholics call this “making reparation”.

:clapping:

Very well said… and it sent chills down my spine because i had this thought (Yes, i know… just a thought… doesn’t necessarily mean anything…) that maybe God so wanted to help us make this point, that he allowed those enemies to come to blows like that?? Ok, probably not, but couldn’t help but wonder… Only He knows why those people were fighting… I pray for them…

In any case, it certainly makes a powerful point for what we are trying to say… about the realitiy of sin… and its awful consequences…

 

[distracted]

= Isn’t this what Jesus commanded, whose sins you forgive they are forgiven, or retained they are retained.

:

Jesus was speaking to his Apostles (the first bishops of His Church) when he said this… He gave THEM the power to forgive sins… because they took his place (not that anyone can perfectly do that…) since He was going back to Heaven… to some extent this power goes to those who are not bishops/priests… becsause there is great power in forgiveness and it is required of us in order to get into Heaven… but this passage (John 19:20-) refers to sacramental absolution (confession)…

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
The payment for the borken nose was paid by Christ on the cross. Christ alone is the only One Who could pay that price.

guanophore
Such a statement reflects a deficient understanding of sin, and reparation. The reason there is an eternal consequence for breaking someone’s nose is because “whatever you do to the least, that you have done unto me”. Love does no wrong to a neighbor, so this wrong is a failure of love, which is an offense against God.

However, if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just, and will forgive them. However, obtaining God’s forgiveness does nothing for the victim, who should also be asked for forgiveness. It also does nothing about the broken nose. There was a fight here today where I work. One person broke the other persons’ nose. The two had to be separated, there was a lot of blood everywhere. Medical help had to be called, the housekeeping had to clean the biohazard, etc. The act of breaking the nose created consequences on many levels for many people. Though Jesus will forgive the sin, for which He has paid the price, these temporal consequences are still here. Jesus did not make the broken nose disappear, nor did He make the blood on the porch disappear. These things have to be addressed by people. Catholics call this “making reparation”.

It is true that at times we must make reparations to others if we can. The problem is that we cannot do so with God. That’s why Christ died as a payment for our sins. If He had not done so, we would have been condemned forever.

Where in Scripture does God demand we make reparations to Him after we have sinned?

 

[RNRobert]

I recall reading in Acts Ch. 9 about Saul’s conversion. In verse 13, Ananias tells the Lord about all the evil things Saul has done to Christians. The Lord replies in verse 16 “I will show him what he will have to suffer for my name.”

Now, if Saul was forgiven by Christ for persecuting him (his Body, Christians), why would he still have to suffer?

 

[distracted]

It is true that at times we must make reparations to others if we can. The problem is that we cannot do so with God. That’s why Christ died as a payment for our sins. If He had not done so, we would have been condemned forever.

Where in Scripture does God demand we make reparations to Him after we have sinned?

You don’t respond to my posts…

Proof i am doing something right…

 

[justasking4]

Jesus was speaking to his Apostles (the first bishops of His Church) when he said this… He gave THEM the power to forgive sins… because they took his place (not that anyone can perfectly do that…) since He was going back to Heaven… to some extent this power goes to those who are not bishops/priests… becsause there is great power in forgiveness and it is required of us in order to get into Heaven… but this passage (John 19:20-) refers to sacramental absolution (confession)…

What do you mean by “sacramental absolution”?

Must a person go to a priest to be forgiven?

 

[george_57]

Purgatory +praying to mary, lighting candles, etc, its good stuff if it were found in the bible, but sorry its not there, mary was a real wonderful woman, but she still needed a savour, and the other thing , accepting christ as your savour means thats it finished your salvation is complete, one can be a weak christian, or one can be a real good worker for christ, it doesnot mean anything to do with christ finished work on the cross, salvation is a gift, of all things you must believe this part, the man on the cross with christ, he was taking to heven , no works no any talk from christ about baptism, or Purgatory , please i beg you out there one day we allstand before god , unless the sinner has the sinnless cover of christ payed for by christ, he will go to hell,because nothing can get us salvation only i mean only christ, may god open up your eyes and heart, and i ask my lord and savour to shine his love on you all , george from scotland, god bless, ok dont run away, get answers back to me , or just believe christs words fron the bible, you must be born again , its the only way the holy spirit, can make it be clear. god bless.

 

[distracted]

What do you mean by “sacramental absolution”?

Must a person go to a priest to be forgiven?

a person is forgiven by God as soon as s/he tells God s/he is sorry… However… sacramental confession is how Jesus prefered that we be forgiven/absolved/sanctified… It is a way of being tangibly absolved…

Jesus knows better than anyone how human we all are… and as such, it is very helpful to hear those words “I absolve you…” (particularly when the words are spoken by a fellow sinner, one who can empathize with our weaknesses)

That’s not the only reason Jesus set things up this way… I am not sure i can list all of the reasons…

Another reason for this kind of “arrangement” is that when we sin, we don’t just sin against God… We also sin against our fellow man… even if the sin is done in private and nobody knows about it (technically); the priest represents our fellow man… It is SO awesome to be forgiven not only by God but by our fellow humans, whom we have offended…

I know from experience the power of sacramental confession… For one thing, it begins the expiation process in earnest… In other words (it is a sacrament and as such it) has the power to begin the cleansing process… which is needed becasue of the stain on a person’s soul due to sin. Sin separates from God… Confession begins the process of bringing one back to intimacy with Him…