Why MUST there be a HELL?

[SOUNDTRUTH]

Why MUST there be a HELL ??:

Why cannot there be a GOD who has the power to heal and repair all of mankind, including healing the minds of those who do not want to be healed. Why cannot there be a GOD who proceeds to do so such a thing such that all mankind will rise into the Heavens.

Do we have a God who cannot beat a Devil ?
Do we have a God who is a partner of a Devil ?
Do we have a God who insists upon giving a Devil a fair share ?
Do we have a God who would do the unthinkable of allowing a Devil to take power over mankind for even more than 1 second ?

Why MUST there be a HELL ??:

 

[LilyM]

**Why MUST there be a HELL ??:**confused:

Why cannot there be a GOD who has the power to heal and repair all of mankind, including healing the minds of those who do not want to be healed. Why cannot there be a GOD who proceeds to do so such a thing such that all mankind will rise into the Heavens.

Do we have a God who cannot beat a Devil ?
Do we have a God who is a partner of a Devil ?
Do we have a God who insists upon giving a Devil a fair share ?
Do we have a God who would do the unthinkable of allowing a Devil to take power over mankind for even more than 1 second ?

**Why MUST there be a HELL ??:**confused:

Hell is not simply a physical place that we get sent to by God as punishment for disobedience.

Hell is a state of eternal disunion or separation from God - and we choose it for ourselves freely - by our own willingness to act in ways that displease him. The Devil is also there for the same reason, and wants us to join him, and tempts us to join him. He has, however, no power over us that we don’t willingly give to him.

First and foremost you have to understand that God gave us free will - he wants those who are with him to choose him lovingly and freely. Not with any force or constraint. Adam and Eve had that free will, without original sin - and chose selfish disobedience. Mary had that same free will - and chose loving and selfless obedience. So we all can go either way.

It is exactly the same thing we do when we give our children, partners and family members free choice to love us, live with us, be in communication and harmony with us or not.

And what does a parent, for example, do with a child who they cannot live with and who refuses to live with them because the child has a problem with drug addiction? They cannot and will not physically stop the child from taking drugs - since they know full well the child will only stop when they realise for themselves that drugs are not healthy or desirable.

Neither will they condone or approve in any way what the child does. So they may kick the child out of the house and refuse any material support to them - with the hopes that this will make the child come to their senses. Of course, since the child has free will, the potential remains that the child will live the rest of their lives and die in a state of disunion, disharmony and separation from the parents.

So it is with God. He wants children who have had all their lives the option of choosing against him and his love and yet, in spite of all offers to the contrary, have chosen him. And why would someone who chooses anything else over God want to be in heaven anyway? They’d hate it just like they hated God on earth! God isn’t going to force them into that either.

 

[tabcom]

**
Who is the Jailor that holds the keys to Hell?

Jesus

Re 1:18
and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

Death is Seperation

Romans 3:23 – all have sinned

Romans 6:23 – For the wages of sin is death

* death-Greek: thanatos-loss of life; separation by which life is ended

I John 5:12-- He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

John 14:6–(Jesus speaking) – I am the life–

Luke 16:26–(speaking of the rich man in hell)–there is a great gulf fixed.

* gulf- Greek: chasma: from chao (to gape or yawn); chasm or vacancy (impassible interval); a separation

Death is not annihilation, but rather separation. Jesus is life. Those who have not Christ are abiding in death and will be separated from God forever in hell, unless they repent of sin (self) and live for Christ (Luke 13:5).

How evil was Eve’s sin? There were no nightclubs, no drugs, no other men with which she could be unfaithful (adultery), no drinking, no smoking, no one to envy, no one to hate (except God), no vices of any kind. What was this great sin with which the human race is continually separated from God. Eve merely ignored God’s commandment when he said, “Thou shalt not”–. She said to herself, “I will make my own rules; I will interpret for myself what God meant.” (Men still say these words about the bible). The “worst sin” is not child molestation, rape, murder, abortion, homosexuality, sexual promiscuity, etc. These are no different than all other sins of “pride”. When God says, “Thou shalt not,” pride vaunts itself against God in rebellion and says, "I will if I want to, because I don’t believe God means it when He says that I must obey or die.

Paul said, “There is none righteous, no, not one-- there is none that seeketh after God–there is none good” (Rom. 3:10-12). David said "every man “at his best state is altogether vanity” (Psalms 39:5).

Ignore God’s words and you will die (separate) forever in hell without Jesus (life).

**

 

[SOUNDTRUTH]

Hell is not simply a physical place that we get sent to by God as punishment for disobedience.

Hell is a state of eternal disunion or separation from God - and we choose it for ourselves freely - by our own willingness to act in ways that displease him.

If we each had **" TRUE " **freedom of willingness, then each and every one of us would make the exact same choice. However, because of the way in which each of us is designed with uniqueness as part of the equation, the outcome of this ** " willingness " ** is not the same for all.

Therefore, there is no such a thing as a **" TRUE WILLINGNESS " **

Did a millionaire choose to be millionaire based on his or her willingness, and that is all ? If others choose to also be millionaires, will they also succeed due to them being willing to do so ?

**NO. **Choice alone, is not enough !

First and foremost you have to understand that God gave us free will - he wants those who are with him to choose him lovingly and freely. Not with any force or constraint.

For us to have free will, our minds would have to be free. For our minds to be free, the mind must not be attached to the brain in any way, for the brain is attached to reality itself, and reality is structured such that it creates ongoing cases of cause and effect.

This detachment of the mind then would ensure that we are not in any way at all effected by the past, and hence would have true free will. But this is not the case. The mind is a result of the functioning of the brain, the brain is the result of the cause and effect present throughout the reality that was created.

The outcome is that people " Believe " that they have independently chosen to follow God, when in truth, all was prearranged as part of the creation of reality itself.



What do you see ?
A Cross, or Two Heads facing each other ?

 

[LilyM]

Soundtruth, the considerations you raise don’t matter at all. Perhaps human beings don’t have ‘utterly’ free will and free choice to its greatest possible extent. Nonetheless they at least at times have sufficient self-awareness and independence of thought and action that consequences can and should be attached to what they do, correct We’re not entirely preprogrammed automatons or robots?

Otherwise we could predict with mathematical accuracy the kind of upbringing or life a person needs to turn out a certain way. And we simply don’t, and I don’t believe we ever will either.

A point for your consideration. A student who chooses not to study for a test will usually fail. They suffer for their choice not to study. And our courts fine, jail or distribute other punishments in certain cases where a person is considered to have freely decided to go against the law, do they not? Do you think they should never do so? If they can and should then why cannot God do the same?

Human courts and other agencies, of course, also consider details of the individual’s life that may be relevant to whether they were free enough in their choice. Someone who is sufficiently psychologically or physically ill, in some other emergency situation may be allowed to resit their exam, or a criminal who acts in self-defence will either not be punished at all or not punished as heavily.

And again it is the same with God. The Catholic church teaches that sin, to be subject to punishment, must be broken freely and with full knowledge. Someone, again, who sins or turns their back on God but does so for the reasons listed above, for example, may be guilty of nothing or not sufficiently guilty to be condemned to hell.

But of course there are people who have more than ample mental and physical ability to do the right thing morally, obey the laws of the land or study for their school exams, and choose in spite of this, relatively freely, not to. They get what they deserve - the consequences

 

[thistle]

If we each had **" TRUE " **freedom of willingness, then each and every one of us would make the exact same choice. However, because of the way in which each of us is designed with uniqueness as part of the equation, the outcome of this ** " willingness " ** is not the same for all.

Therefore, there is no such a thing as a **" TRUE WILLINGNESS " **

Did a millionaire choose to be millionaire based on his or her willingness, and that is all ? If others choose to also be millionaires, will they also succeed due to them being willing to do so ?

**NO. **Choice alone, is not enough !

For us to have free will, our minds would have to be free. For our minds to be free, the mind must not be attached to the brain in any way, for the brain is attached to reality itself, and reality is structured such that it creates ongoing cases of cause and effect.

This detachment of the mind then would ensure that we are not in any way at all effected by the past, and hence would have true free will. But this is not the case. The mind is a result of the functioning of the brain, the brain is the result of the cause and effect present throughout the reality that was created.
**
The outcome is that people " Believe " that they have independently chosen to follow God, when in truth, all was prearranged as part of the creation of reality itself**.
http://www.outersecrets.com/real/template/2heads.gif

What do you see ?
A Cross, or Two Heads facing each other ?

Oh no! I really hope you are not one of these people who believe in pre-destination!!

 

[SOUNDTRUTH]

So what you are saying LilyM, is that people know what Hell truly is, since this is a requirement necessary to make an intellectual decision.

If Hell is beyond human comprehension, then we are forced to make a decision without full awareness of the situation. If we are fully aware of the situation, then each of us can describe Hell to the smallest, and most importantly, the largest detail.

If not, then we have been placed in a situation that toys with our limitations. Those of us born in an environment that allows us to acquire wisdom, won’t dare take any foolish risks. Those not given such a privilege, will then proceed to take a risk that includes having an unawareness of the seriousness of the situation due to not having being exposed to the completeness of Hell.



**What do you see ?

A Cross, or Two Heads facing each other ?**

 

[LilyM]

So what you are saying LilyM, is that people know what Hell truly is, since this is a requirement necessary to make an intellectual decision.

If Hell is beyond human comprehension, then we are forced to make a decision without full awareness of the situation. If we are fully aware of the situation, then each of us can describe Hell to the smallest, and most importantly, the largest detail.

If not, then we have been placed in a situation that toys with our limitations. Those of us born in an environment that allows us to acquire wisdom, won’t dare take any foolish risks. Those not given such a privilege, will then proceed to take a risk that includes having an unawareness of the seriousness of the situation due to not having being exposed to the completeness of Hell.

Not at all. A person doesn’t need to know exactly or fully understand the consequences of disobeying the law, or having an affair, or some such, to know that these are both foolish and harmful things to do. After all, we can’t all be given a tour of a jail so that we may understand what jail is like. Or be forced to spend a day in the divorce courts or a sexual health clinic to expose us to the consequences of adultery. In spite of this, most people seem to appreciate the desirability of avoiding these behaviours.

In someone of even well above average intelligence, however, such knowledge isn’t always of itself sufficient to deter them. Weaknesses such as greed or pride or what have you can undermine sense and reason. Smart people do dumb things every day.

Now do you believe in complete and utter predestination of human beings? In regard to both what they do in this world and in regards to the next? Do you believe that anyone has sufficient free will to commit a crime for which they should be punished? And that awareness that a crime IS a crime should suffice for such punishment, since

 

[puzzleannie]

Why MUST there be a HELL ??:
??:

if there was no possibility of choosing God, even when provided with full knowledge, as happens at the moment of judgement, there would be no free will. If there were no free will, there would be no possibility of full love and union with the Creator, his intent in creating us, would be possible, but under force, not through full loving acceptance.

Hell is the absence of God, the deliberate willful separation of oneself from God, a state which came into being first when Lucifer and the dark angels willfully chose themselves and their own pride over God, heaven and perfect unity. The devils are creatures, lesser than God, still with their spiritual natures with which they were created, but do not have any of God’s powers.

God did do something to free man from condemnation and separation from God, the condition all humanity groaned in before the coming of Christ and his saving action. Heaven is open to all who ask for it, desire it, accept it.

 

[SOUNDTRUTH]

Weaknesses such as greed or pride or what have you can undermine sense and reason.

Yes I understand what you are saying, but what I am saying is that something exists that is beyond understanding, and therefore does not have a one to one scale effectiveness upon us.

If a child does not feel pain, then the child will grow up with many cases of broken bones, burnt flesh, etc. For them, there is no feedback within the nervous system to set up boundaries of what to do and what not to do.

If you placed the hand of the man of " Weaknesses " into the flames of Hell, then even a weak mind will now have firm boundaries within his mind.

But this option is not available.



**What do you see ?

A Cross, or Two Heads facing each other ?**

 

[AELondon]

Yes I understand what you are saying, but what I am saying is that something exists that is beyond understanding, and therefore does not have a one to one scale effectiveness upon us.

If a child does not feel pain, then the child will grow up with many cases of broken bones, burnt flesh, etc. For them, there is no feedback within the nervous system to set up boundaries of what to do and what not to do.

If you placed the hand of the man of " Weaknesses " into the flames of Hell, then even a weak mind will now have firm boundaries within his mind.

But this option is not available.

http://www.outersecrets.com/real/template/2heads.gif

**What do you see ?

A Cross, or Two Heads facing each other ?**

Ah, you make a good argument… for the Church! You are right, a nervous system is necessary in order to bring understanding of the danger of natural threats. In the same way, the Church is necessary in order to bring us understanding of supernatural threats. It is throught the Church that Christ established a means of infallibly teaching the flock about faith and morals. Without which, we are left to blunder about in the type of subjectiveness which your posts accurately touch upon.

 

[trogiah]

Why MUST there be a HELL ??:

Why cannot there be a GOD who has the power to heal and repair all of mankind, including healing the minds of those who do not want to be healed. Why cannot there be a GOD who proceeds to do so such a thing such that all mankind will rise into the Heavens.

Do we have a God who cannot beat a Devil ?
Do we have a God who is a partner of a Devil ?
Do we have a God who insists upon giving a Devil a fair share ?
Do we have a God who would do the unthinkable of allowing a Devil to take power over mankind for even more than 1 second ?

Why MUST there be a HELL ??:

The only condemnation that we must face is the condemnation that we place on others. The only absolute requirement for forgiveness is that we forgive others. The measure with which we measure will be used to measure us.

Jesus is very clear on this. Though the message seems to have been distorted through the ages.

The only hell that must exist is the one you create and send others to. It is more difficult to avoid creating hells and sending people there than most of us would imagine.

“If you forgive others, your heavenly father will forgive you. If you don’t forgive others, your heavenly father will not forgive you.”

After some consideration, to me that approach seems both just and merciful.

peace

Jim

 

[buffalo]

How would you know about heaven if there was no hell?

 

[SOUNDTRUTH]

Ah, you make a good argument… for the Church! You are right, a nervous system is necessary in order to bring understanding of the danger of natural threats. In the same way, the Church is necessary in order to bring us understanding of supernatural threats. It is thought the Church that Christ established a means of infallibly teaching the flock about faith and morals. Without which, we are left to blunder about in the type of subjectiveness which your posts accurately touch upon.

Your almost there !

In the case of a normal child, we have natural feedback about natural threats.

In the case of a normal adult, the church provides natural feedback about supernatural events that occur in a supernatural place.

They are supernatural because they occur outside of the reality that we are aware of, and instead occur on the other side.

The other side is the other side. We can not see the other side because it is not the same as this side. Not being the same as this side, it is not part of this side of reality.

And so, at this point, religion can only describe that which can be understood on our side of reality. On top of that, it gets a little risky because by not being able to see both sides of reality, the COMPLETE reality, we must therefore depend upon Belief rather than truth, since actual TRUTH includes both halves of the COMPLETE truth, one half on our side, and the other half on the other side.

Belief and Truth are not one in the same. Belief can point you towards the truth, or it may point you elsewhere.

The trick is how to move from where you are now, to get to the truth that that belief may be pointing you towards, or you may choose to remain as a believer, and never reach that truth.



**What do you see ?

A Cross, or Two Heads facing each other ?**

 

[Melchior]

Oh no! I really hope you are not one of these people who believe in pre-destination!!

Every Catholic is bound to believe in Predestination. It is De Fide. Plus, St. Paul, St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas make a very strong case for it.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Why MUST there be a HELL ??:

Why cannot there be a GOD who has the power to heal and repair all of mankind, including healing the minds of those who do not want to be healed. Why cannot there be a GOD who proceeds to do so such a thing such that all mankind will rise into the Heavens.

Do we have a God who cannot beat a Devil ?
Do we have a God who is a partner of a Devil ?
Do we have a God who insists upon giving a Devil a fair share ?
Do we have a God who would do the unthinkable of allowing a Devil to take power over mankind for even more than 1 second ?

Why MUST there be a HELL ??:

Because we are made in the image of God - that is, we are creatures; and yet, we are God-like, in that we are capable of free acts - including the freedom to determine what our end shall be.​

1. All creaturely activity is for an end - only God, Who is Infinite Act, does not act for an end; because creaturely activity is meant to be God-ward. This is because all creatures, & all that they are, come from God in the first place. And God is very obviously not a creature. To act for an end, implies being imperfect in one’s being - & God is Infinite Being.
2. Though all creatures are limited by the very fact of being created, so that no creature can be infinite, they are in principle capable of desiring the Infinite God. To do so in actuality, they need to be aware of themselves as existing beings & of God: they have to be conscious of their own existence, as contrasted with that of God. Man is the only animal who has been designed by God to exist in this way (angels are not animals, so we can put them on the shelf for the moment). A stone loves God simply by being a stone - man loves God, by “going out of himself” toward God; so stones & men are God-ward in different ways, because they are creatures of different kinds.
3. A stone fulfils its “stonehood” by being the stone it is; but man is not fully man unless he is fulfilled in God, rather than in himself - he is not designed to be purely human. Men are created for God, not for themselves - unlike stones, they can relate to God as persons.

God is Love, & has created us to love Him, not for His happiness, but for ours. For His Glory - yes; but not for His gain; for He can gain nothing: He can only give. And this is where the problems begin - because man is able to relate to God as created person to Uncreated Persons, he is also capable of refusing to do so. He has a will, just as God has; He is as truly free as God is. But he is not compelled to love God - IOW, human freedom is open to the possibility of being used against God. It has to be - otherwise, it would not be as truly & perfectly a free act of a created being.

Hell is the result of using our God-given freedom, not so we grow in love by loving (which means, giving self) but, as a defence against God. There is a Hell because men make it by their sins. “God made not death” - He even says “I have set before you this day both life & death; therefore, choose life”. God is biassed in favour of life; yet He does not force us to obey Him: how can love be forced ?

Damnation is the fault of men - God is blameless. It is because the devil does not have the last laugh, that his servants cannot be allowed to spoil the joy of those who do love God. The damned (what is left of them, as they are the rubbish of the human race) have chosen to reject God, so they stay in that rejection; the only alternative is the one they hate - namely, God. They cannot be healed, for there is nothing to heal; they are radically perverted & are nothing but perversions. If they have chosen to know Goodness as Evil, & evil as their good, would God’s Kindness be anything but a horror to them ? This is possible in life - is it impossible in death ? For them, sin in its fullness is their “eternal life”: & that is perverted

Damnation is not a mistake, or an accident, or an injustice: it is always a free choice. It is inevitable only in the sense that to reject the infinite Blessedness that is God, cannot lead to anything else. If we choose to reject God, finally, irrevocably, that is our sin: but never God’s fault. The damned have none to blame but themselves.

The devil is irrevocably ruined - the victory of Christ is total, just as it always has been All that remains, is for it to take effect totally. It is a reality, here, now, everywhere, forever; & it is by faith that we see this. That’s why events in the world cannot shake it. ##

 

[mchale]

Every Catholic is bound to believe in Predestination. It is De Fide. Plus, St. Paul, St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas make a very strong case for it.

Yes but there is predestination and then there is predestination. We are bound to believe in predestination in the sense that God knows all those who will be granted salvation by accepting his grace. As Catholics we are not bound to believe that God created men who were predestined to fall (sometimes referred to as double-predestination).

–
Bill

 

[Damascus]

There MUST be a HELL because—Drumroll please…

There is a heaven.

I hope that cleared it up.

 

[Evan]

You speak much of the devil, but consider his situation.

He knew God face to face. He has experienced heaven. He is more intellegent than any of us.

Yet, with all this knowledge, he chose Hell rather than heaven.

Knowledge, of itself, does not lead one to heaven.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Jesus referred to Gahenna.

A burning garbage dump outside of Jerusalem.

[Why on earth would a town in Ohio choose THAT name???]