Why must we perform “good works” to obtain salvation

[MT1926]

Paul was a top of the line in Judaism but yet he says he was lost without Christ. So how can someone on the other side of the world fare any better. The logic doesn’t follow.

I’m not sure which verse of scripture you are referencing here. I just wanted to point out that you are trying to find a logical conclusion to an illogical premise. Basically, what I am saying is you are trying to compare St. Paul to modern day non believers. The illogical premise is…

St. Paul lived at the time of Jesus. He was able to experience the first hand witness of people that knew Jesus, saw His miracles, saw Him after the resurrection, yet he still didn’t believe. Now trying to compare him to modern day non believers 2000 years removed who now hear contradictory arguments for the same Jesus and don’t believe, is like comparing apples to oranges.

In Luke 12:48 Jesus tells us that to whom much is given much more will be required. Well St. Paul was given way more knowledge than any modern day nonbeliever.

Now that being say, I am not saying that all non believers get a free pass as you seem to imply here…

Having a hard time historically looking at Israel and the pagan nations surrounding them seeing that God saved them. God had Israel drive them out because of their idolatry. God even judged Israel for their idolatry. No idolaters will enter heaven. So how can you possibly say the world in their pagan religions which is idolatry are going to heaven?

All I am saying is we, as Christians, are given no abilities, by God, to judge the hearts of man. There is nothing in us, even with the gift of the Holy Spirit, that can give us infallible certainty the judgement of our soul or the soul of anyone else. It is God who judges who is saved and who is damned, whether they be Christian or not is His call, not ours. That’s all that @po18guy is saying here, he is not making any other claim.

Hope this helps,

God Bless

 

[jericho777]

People here are saying as long as a person is following their non christian religion and do good works they can go to heaven. That is my point. Paul is saying even though he was at the highest level of Judaism he was forever lost. He even says he wishes he could give himself so his countrymen could be saved. Romans 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race. How do reconcile what Paul is saying to what the others are saying?

I wasn’t judging them. God is saying in His word He is judging then because they were pagan idolaters. I’m questioning the rationale that says good idolaters go to heaven. Why is it necessary even to go into all the world and preach the gospel? Why did Jesus have to die if you don’t have to believe in Him but just do good works?

 

[Nelka]

People here are saying as long as a person is following their non christian religion and do good works they can go to heaven.

This is what confuses me: why be Christian then?

 

[fhansen]

Here’s the Church’s bottom line teaching on the “Particular Judgment”:

"Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 – or immediate and everlasting damnation.596

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.597"

That last sentence, a quote from St John of the Cross, is very central to your question. If Protestantism teaches ‘justification by faith alone’, Catholicism could be said to teach ‘justification by love alone’. IOW, to the extent that a human fulfills the Greatest Commandments, they are just, right in God’s eyes. This is a matter of Him transforming us, of justifying us, of molding us into His own image, of fulfilling the New Covenant prophecy of Jer 31:33 where He puts His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts as we enter into communion with Him. And faith is only the beginning of this relationship, while love is the goal. And love acts, by its nature, for the good of others.

 

[Godfollower]

People here are saying as long as a person is following their non christian religion and do good works they can go to heaven.

This is what confuses me: why be Christian then?

Because that isn’t what they’re saying.

"[Outside the Church there is no [salvation]”

How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated] by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Vhrist is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church].
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”

Catechism of the Catholic Church paras. 846-48.

 

[jericho777]

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church].
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”

It could easily be said the Jews in Paul’s day fit that definition 100%. For sure they loved YHWH God but denied Jesus. Paul says they are lost. 1 John 1:23 says No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. It’s acknowledging Jesus this side of eternity.

Ignorance before the law is no excuse either for denying Christ. Romans 1:18-32 spells that out.

This type of salvation is what the JW’s teach. A lack of consciousness of who Jesus really is this side of eternity but a second chance thing.

 

[Pug]

Why did Jesus have to die if you don’t have to believe in Him but just do good works?

Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. (Rom 5:18 or thereabouts)

Because of the sin of Adam, we all need a Savior. Even the nice people.

EDIT: I was answering the part about Jesus having to die, but I see I also need to add that nobody said faith was not needed. It is needed, at least implicitly, for an adult. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

 

[Godfollower]

I’m not sure what your protest is. All men have the law of God written on their hearts.

The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earthand does not live in temples built by human hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’
Acts 17:24-28 (emphasis added).

This, even men who have never heard of Jesus can strive to do God’s will. God can grant salvation to them, too. Their redemption is only possible because of Jesus; but they can be granted eternal life even if they never heard of Jesus.

Any theology claiming that people who are entirely ignorant of Jesus cannot be saved essentially contends that God deliberately condemned innocent people to Hell. And that is not the teaching of Jesus.

 

[thebible]

We don’t need to perform good works to obtain salvation.

For by GRACE you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God.

NOT as a result of works so that no one may boast.

Ephesians 2:8-9

 

[lanman87]

The Faith/Works argument is a frequent discussion on this board. What I’ve discovered is that the actual beliefs on faith/works between Protestant and Catholics actually isn’t that far apart. We just use different definitions of faith and works.

I’ve come to believe the faith/works debate is really about being Catholic. When a protestants say I’m saved by faith alone what they really mean is I’m saved without having to be Catholic. In particular, I’m saved without having to take/participate in the Sacraments as administered by the Catholic church. When a Catholic says you are saved by faith+works what they really mean is that you are saved by following the teachings of the church, specifically by taking/participating in the Sacraments as administered by a Catholic Priest.

 

[lanman87]

On the flip side. You can do good works until the cows come home and dot all the I’s and cross all the t’s and be at every service and know more about the teachings of the church than anyone. But if you are doing it all to try “make it” to heaven then you’ve missed the point of the Gospel.

 

[MT1926]

What I’ve discovered is that the actual beliefs on faith/works between Protestant and Catholics actually isn’t that far apart. We just use different definitions of faith and works.

Totally agree

In particular, I’m saved without having to take/participate in the Sacraments as administered by the Catholic church.

This does tend to seem what comes across in regards to this topic. Just never wanted to come right out and say it.

When a Catholic says you are saved by faith+works what they really mean is that you are saved by following the teachings of the church, specifically by taking/participating in the Sacraments as administered by a Catholic Priest.

I would say you are missing the point on what we mean by faith and works, which makes me understand why people say what you said in the last statement about Catholics.

On the flip side. You can do good works until the cows come home and dot all the I’s and cross all the t’s and be at every service and know more about the teachings of the church than anyone. But if you are doing it all to try “make it” to heaven then you’ve missed the point of the Gospel.

Totally agree. The Catholic Church actually teaches that if a person does “good works” or “dot’s all the I’s and crosses all the T’s” as you say, for purely superstitious reasons then their faith is in vain.

God Bless

 

[lanman87]

for purely superstitious reasons then their faith is in vain.

Please define superstitious reasons?

 

[Theo2]

I agree. Faith is a gift from God and we must invest our gift and get a return on our investment. The parable of he talents comes to mind.

 

[MT1926]

Please define superstitious reasons?

Well the way I understood it is take this example.

As Catholics we believe in Ex opere operato. A Latin expression meaning “by the work worked.” It refers to the fact that the sacraments confer grace when the sign is validly effected – not as the result of activity on the part of the recipient but by the power and promise of God.

Basically, what this means is when we receive the Eucharist we take Jesus at His word and believe that by this sacrament Jesus will give us grace. Not because He owes us, but because He promised He would.

Well at one point in history some people took this teaching a little to far (“superstitiously”) and started running from Church to Church 10 and 12 times a day thinking they would be able to get more grace than their neighbor who was only going once.

Basically, as you stated in your post these people are trying “cross their T’s” to get more grace, for the sole purpose of ensuring they can get to heaven, not because they have a changed heart.

Does this make sense?

God Bless

PS HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!