Why no more Latin?

[siamesecat]

deogratias:

Piffle!!! Where did you get your misinformation. Please don’t pass on rumors like this to seriously questioning Catholics and others.

It is true. We studied Catholic history this year. They kept many of the lower class church members ignorant by allowing only the clergy to read the bible. of course not all church hierarchy was corrupt, but many were. This was at a time where lay investiture and nepotism were common, the popes exile to Babylon was taking place, lots of corruption in the church. This was centuries ago, however. Im not saying this all still takes place. It was like Roman Empire times and sometime after. the 1200s maybe. Piffle…thats an interesting expression lol. But it was translated so that people could interpret the bible for themselves and see the messages.

 

[deogratias]

`Well now I am sure you did not study this at any Catholic school and so I doubt its validity. Besides that, you list yourself as an Atheist and so I ask you, are you coming here to seek the truth about Catholicism or to bash it?

 

[siamesecat]

I have to make my confirmation this year, so even though I dont really believe I came to see if this church was worth associating myself with. Tonight I decided not to make my confirmation because my disdain for the church has only grown because of my visiting this website. Except for a select few of you who were nice most of you seem to be prejudiced and completely the opposite of what Catholics should be. That said, the exile of the popes at Babylon did indeed happen, as did nepotism and lay investiture. That was the reason there were rebellions and the church was reformed with new laws, as well as why Lutheranism and Calvinism sprang up.

 

[dumspirospero]

I find it funny that a person with such “disdain” for the Church and an atheist is telling us what Catholics should be. We are not perfect, but one thing is for sure, we believe in Christ Allmighty and we are going to heaven when our time comes. I pray for your soul. Where are you going when you die?

siamesecat:

I have to make my confirmation this year, so even though I dont really believe I came to see if this church was worth associating myself with. Tonight I decided not to make my confirmation because my disdain for the church has only grown because of my visiting this website. Except for a select few of you who were nice most of you seem to be prejudiced and completely the opposite of what Catholics should be. That said, the exile of the popes at Babylon did indeed happen, as did nepotism and lay investiture. That was the reason there were rebellions and the church was reformed with new laws, as well as why Lutheranism and Calvinism sprang up.

 

[deogratias]

Amazing - now you are trying to lay a guilt trip on us.-

completely the opposite of what Catholics should be

Exactly what do you think Catholics should be? Telling the truth is often more charitable than telling someone what they want to hear, especially if their immortal soul is at stake.

I agree you should not be confirmed yet - But not because of us - because you have little faith. I will pray for you and your immortal soul and that you will find the faith you need to accept what the Church teaches and not be swayed by the world and the forces of evil.

 

[dumspirospero]

My thoughts exactly. Don’t get confirmed. If you truly accept the Churches teachings…then get confirmed. IF not, then do us a favor and don’t. We don’t need any more heretics. I will pray for you, so that you may find your way.

deogratias:

Amazing - now you are trying to lay a guilt trip on us.-

Exactly what do you think Catholics should be? Telling the truth is often more charitable than telling someone what they want to hear, especially if their immortal soul is at stake.

I agree you should not be confirmed yet - But not because of us - because you have little faith. I will pray for you and your immortal soul and that you will find the faith you need to accept what the Church teaches and not be swayed by the world and the forces of evil.

 

[mango_2003]

Faustina:

Someone who wants to be Catholic

Hardly.

I use the term “pseudo” because I’m not “officially” Protestant. I’m not a member of any church. I’m still fishing.

Christ is my Lord and my Savior. That’s all I’ll ever need. Everything else is secondary.

~mango~

 

[bob]

siamesecat:

They changed it because people didnt understand Latin and should be able to understand the mass. It was used by the corrupt Church centuries ago to keep people from actually reading the bible, as these people didnt understand Latin, and so it was a privelege only the clergy could hold. Eventually the people got mad about this because they were being deceived and the bible was translated. I guess the same thing happened with mass. If you cant understand whats going on how can you believe in it…you need to understand god’s teachings!

Changed it from what?

Protestants simply love to accuse the Catholic Church of using Latin to prevent the man-in-the-street from understanding the bible/mass. Claiming to be the first to translate the bible to vernacular.

How wrong can they get!

The bible books were written in Hebrew, Aramiac and Greek.
The Church translated it into Latin - the vernacular language of its time and the language spoken by every Tom, Dick and Harry (or should I say, Romeo, Juliet and Antonio?) throughout the Roman Empire!

Three languages became one, so they did not need to be multilingual.
When the bible was read in Latin, everyone understood.

Moreover, as the Church grew internationally, Latin was the common language when the Church met to discuss.
Latin was an unifying factor, not a divisive factor.

Get your facts right!

Another good example of Protestant fallacy about the Catholic Church.

 

[Ana]

Siamesecat,

No matter where you go, you will not find anyone who is perfect. We are all works in progress. May God bless you abundantly on your journey towards Truth.

 

[Mike_C]

Most people couldn’t read in the Middle ages, not only Latin. Thats why stained glass windows told the Bibical stories. The priest preached in the venacular.

Until the invention of the printing press, Bibles had to be handwritten. If you visit the Cloisters museum in NYC you will see a book called the Book of Hours; a collection of the psalms and hymns. It was owned by a layman. Why did he have such a book if he couldn’t read it?

Mass is still said partially in the venacular and Latin in Europe. When I visited Italy a couple of years ago, the Canon (main part ) of the Mass was still in Latin.

I can read, write and speak Latin. I had 6 years of it in school.

 

[siamesecat]

I am in no way telling you to be perfect. What I think a Catholic should be is a kind accepting person who leaves God to do the judging, maybe Im wrong, but I thought that was the Christian way of life. So far, Ive seen you bash political candidates, say you were disgusted with gay people, call JK Rowling a Satanist, insult Protestants, Jews, and Hindus, and thats just the start. I realize some of these people have beliefs contrary to yours but I find some of the things written downright malicious which is very un-Christian. I’ve just become so turned off from the church after visiting this site. After letting my mom explore the site she said it was ok for me not to make my confirmation. Now Im not speaking of all of you, Im sure there are some very nice people here and I have seen nice posts or even posts that although I dont agree with them, were presented in a reasonable way, not in a hateful way. I do not hate all the teachings of the church, but I hate the way you people are picking and choosing so that you can be above others. Apparently be kind to your neighbor is insignificant when it comes to marriage is between a man and a woman, regardless of whether or not you support it, theres no need to be mean about it.

 

[Iohannes]

We have to admonish people too, and admonishing other people is not insulting, it is a coporal work of mercy.

 

[deogratias]

siamesecat:

. So far, Ive seen you bash political candidates, say you were disgusted with gay people, call JK Rowling a Satanist, insult Protestants, Jews, and Hindus, and thats just the start. I realize some of these people have beliefs contrary to yours but I find some of the things written downright malicious which is very un-Christian. I’ve just become so turned off from the church after visiting this site. After letting my mom explore the site she said it was ok for me not to make my confirmation. Now Im not speaking of all of you, Im sure there are some very nice people here and I have seen nice posts or even posts that although I dont agree with them, were presented in a reasonable way, not in a hateful way. I do not hate all the teachings of the church, but I hate the way you people are picking and choosing so that you can be above othersit.

Because you are only 15, you may consider what some of us say as “mean” and take it personally but I assure you that is not the intent of most who post here. What we care about more than your feelings though is your soul. That is what we are charged with doing. If we are “nice” and do not offer fraternal correction to you and others about what Christ teaches, then we are in error and accountable to him for that as well.

Christian charity does not imply we be nice and accept all teachings contrary to the Church.

Now I am not saying this to be mean but it seems if we post anything contrary to your personal beliefs (which are quite contrary to Catholic teaching) you consider it bashing.

For instance, so far I have seen you post in just 4 days on the forum

the exile of the popes at Babylon did indeed happen, as did nepotism and lay investiture. That was the reason there were rebellions and the church was reformed with new laws, as well as why Lutheranism and Calvinism sprang up.

It (Latin) was used by the corrupt Church centuries ago to keep people from actually reading the bible, as these people didnt understand Latin, and so it was a privelege only the clergy could hold. Eventually the people got mad about this because they were being deceived and the bible was translated. I guess the same thing happened with mass.

I find the church sexist for not allowing women priests.

I see nothing wrong wtih contraception.

And I think its ridiculous we’re being lead by a pope who seems to be too elderly t o have any idea whats going on anymore. Nothing against elderly people and I am well aware he cant help this, but to so faithfully follow this guy whos falling asleep in his chair? i also dont believe he can talk to god.

(Im a supporter of gay marriage…i know many of you are not).

The church is sexist…one of my biggest problems with it.

I like to learn about Catholicism and why so many people believe in it. I was baptised Catholic, became a deist, and am now an atheist but I’ve always been very interested in all religions.** I like to debate things, and actually I find some of the fanatical things written here amusing**

Let me assure you that these statements are just as offensive to many Catholics as anything you perceive to be “mean” to you.

 

[squirt]

siamesecat:

Was it Calvin who wanted to translate the bible?

Hi siamesecat,

Lots of people wanted to translate the Bible. Translating into the vernacular is not the same as translating into English. There are lots of vernaculars out there.

There were probably different pressures for translating the Bible into the vernacular in anglophone cultures than in those whose languages had latin roots (like French, Spanish, Portugese, Italian, etc.)

High school textbooks, while interesting, do tend to gloss over a lot and generalize … there are lots of good scholarly books on Church history (which certainly does have its episodes of corruption and scandal) that others on the board could probably recommend to you. You may still decide to come to the same conclusions as you hold now, but they might be better informed conclusions.

(As for your confirmation, since you introduced yourself on the board as an atheist, it might be best to delay for a while. I decided to go ahead with my confirmation when I was a teenager, despite not believing in God, and regretted it for a long time. Mostly it just made me feel like a hypocrite.)

 

[siamesecat]

deogratias:

Because you are only 15, you may consider what some of us say as “mean” and take it personally but I assure you that is not the intent of most who post here. What we care about more than your feelings though is your soul. That is what we are charged with doing. If we are “nice” and do not offer fraternal correction to you and others about what Christ teaches, then we are in error and accountable to him for that as well.

Christian charity does not imply we be nice and accept all teachings contrary to the Church.

Now I am not saying this to be mean but it seems if we post anything contrary to your personal beliefs (which are quite contrary to Catholic teaching) you consider it bashing.

For instance, so far I have seen you post in just 4 days on the forum

Let me assure you that these statements are just as offensive to many Catholics as anything you perceive to be “mean” to you.

I know some of my quotes were offensive, but Im also not claiming to do it in the name of god (Im an atheist). I’m not asking you to accept things like gay marriage, but I still dont think you have to say deliberately mean things about them (not you personally, but some others have ). I know people who oppose gay marriage but because they are not mean about it I dont really mind that they oppose my beliefs. Its people posting things like ‘gay people are disgusting and are child molestors’ that bothers me. And in response to squirt, I wont go through with my confirmation, because you’re right, I will feel like a hypocrite. Are you a believer now (you said you werent at your confirmation time)

 

[squirt]

siamesecat:

Are you a believer now (you said you werent at your confirmation time)?

Yeah … but there was around a 30 year gap between the time of my confirmation and when I ever believed in God …

 

[siamesecat]

Oh. Yeah, someday I may believe in god again, but I wont be a Catholic. I think Ill be a deist (someone who doesnt believe in organized religion) and just worship how I feel is morally right. As for a comment above I forgot to answer. “because im only 15 what you say sounds mean” doesnt make sense. My parents both agreed with much of the comments, as well as several other over 40 aged adults close to me. All 3 left the church. I am a well educated and well informed honor student who always reviews both sides of issues. 15 is old enough to judge when something is said with malice or not.

 

[Iohannes]

siamesecat:

Oh. Yeah, someday I may believe in god again, but I wont be a Catholic. I think Ill be a deist (someone who doesnt believe in organized religion) and just worship how I feel is morally right. As for a comment above I forgot to answer. “because im only 15 what you say sounds mean” doesnt make sense. My parents both agreed with much of the comments, as well as several other over 40 aged adults close to me. All 3 left the church. I am a well educated and well informed honor student who always reviews both sides of issues. 15 is old enough to judge when something is said with malice or not.

What you are basically saying is “non serviam”(I will not serve!).

 

[deogratias]

Oh. Yeah, someday I may believe in god again, but I wont be a Catholic

Yes I read this before in a different thread. You know I know you are very intelligent for a 15 year old and I don’t question that.

I did question your trying to make us feel that your reasons why you would not be confirming was because of the forum because you and I both know you already had stated the above.

I still pray that someday your intelligence won’t get in your way. I was never an atheist but there was a period in my life when I left the Church too, and I guess you could have said I was a deist. I also was a seeker and I investigated all religions as you are doing.

God was very patient with me. And in the end, I came full circle and realized the deposit of truth was indeed in the Catholic Faith.
Being a Catholic isn’t easy. Following rules isn’t easy.

Why should I care that you don’t believe in God? Because I love you and I do believe that this world is but a blink of an eye and I want you to know him in this world and be happy with him in the next.

The 10 commandments which you stated you follow - think about what the first few say.

1. I, the Lord, am your God. You shall have no other Gods besides me

That pretty much rules out atheism. It also pretty much rules out putting what we want ahead of what God wants.

Maybe if everyone on this forum prays for you, you will find yoru way home to Mother Church one day also.

 

[siamesecat]

The forum isnt why I wont make my confirmation, but it did play a part in it. I wasnt going to, but then my parents thought I should. I decided even though I didnt believe it wasnt a big deal. However, I decided last night I would not make my confirmation, and that was because of my being here at the forum and the things I read. It made me embarrassed to associate myself with the church and therefore I decided that I could not stay with the church. I dont know if i will ever believe again…it will take a miracle to bring me back I think. But unless I feel the church has made positive steps in certain areas I will never be Catholic. I dont believe the church will ever accept gay marriage or contraception, as those are key parts of it. So I probably will not come back to it. But by positive steps that could actually happen I mean things like allowing women to be priests which I do not think goes against church teachings. But I doubt I will ever find a church in which I believe everything which is why I think that if for some reason i feel there is a god watching over me i will be a deist.