Why no more Latin?

[Tanais]

siamesecat:

No. I shouldntve had made some of the comments i did. It is not okay for me to be offensive only because I am an atheist. However, I’ve seen many uneccessarily offensive posts made by people claiming to be good Catholics fighting for god. Its one thing to disagree with gay marriage, its another to call them disgusting. I didnt say I will believe in god again…I dont believe he exists (I dont deny him…pretty hard to deny sometihng that is non existant)…but if something ever happened and I did believe like some miracle occured to make me believe, I think I would be a deist… But I dont believe god exists so I dont think that will ever happen. Im not claiming to know everything, considering I know many adults who share my opinions. I dont like organized religion because I think it causes corruption among the leaders. I dont get into trouble, I obey parents and teachers. I have no problem listening to people older than me, in fact I often as my dad to explain why he believes certain things so that I can learn from him. But if I felt certain teachings by elders were wrong, as in the church, I would not follow them. As for a previous post, you have a point about what people think is morally acceptable. Someone who believes murder is morallyacceptable doesnt make it right. But things like murder and rape, which are deliberate harm of another being, are thought as wrong by the vast majority of people . People who believe that it is right usually have some severe mental issues. Other things, such as gay marriage, although the church doesnt agree with it, is not a deliberate harming of an unconsenting person, and plenty of people in their right mind support it.

SiameseCat,
Before I begin, Let me say I apologize ahead of time if any of my comments are uncharitable. You are indeed well beyond you years as a 15 yr. old. I can remember myself being disillusioned with religion at an age slightly younger than yourself. Currently I am 18 and proud to be Catholic. Anyhow, I wish first to draw attention to something you said previously in another post:
What I think a Catholic should be is a kind accepting person who leaves God to do the judging, maybe Im wrong,
Indeed you are partially wrong. It is true that we Catholics are not here to judge your soul, such a thing is for God along. However we do judge ideas and actions, this is called discernment. We are to use are brains to learn what is a good thing and a bad thing, do the good and avoid the bad. When we say someone has an immoral behavior, we are not saying this out of hate but our ot love. Take parents for example, they will love a child completely and it is out of this love that they rebuke the child when he/she does something which is destructive to them. It is the common Christian principle, Love the sinner, hate the sin. Now I wish to draw attention to some other things:
No. I shouldntve had made some of the comments i did. It is not okay for me to be offensive only because I am an atheist.
I dont like organized religion because I think it causes corruption among the leaders. I dont get into trouble, I obey parents and teachers.
You know, for an atheist you are awfully moralistic, which according to Nieztsche is a contradiction. Your atheistic ideas cannot be reconciled with your moralism. I highly suggest you read Paul Chamberlain’s Can We Be Good without God?. I imagine you will like it very much.
(Continued)

 

[Tanais]

(Continued)
Furthermore, you justification for classifying murder as morally unacceptable as opposed to homosexuality and other issues leaves much to be wanted:
*Someone who believes murder is morallyacceptable doesnt make it right. But things like murder and rape, which are deliberate harm of another being, are thought as wrong by the vast majority of people *
First of all, do bigger numbers mean quality? What is the difference between one person saying yes as opposed to many? In ages passed it was common belief that miracles and god exist, even if it was a unanimous concensus does that mean it is true that God exists and so do miracles? If so you ought to repudiate your atheism. Furthermore, would you argue that slavery is morally acceptable? The majority of the people of the world for the longest time agreed it was, does that necessarily make it right? Second of all, since when do my peers have absolute power so that their concensus is binding on me in areas of morality? Who gave them that authority to act in such a way? I ask this all so that you may reach truth, a thing more precious than gold, peace be with you!

 

[Ana]

deogratias:

Siamese Cat.

Well we have established at this time you do not believe in God, although I suspect you are more agnostic than atheist.

Who do you think Jesus was/is? Since you have studied religions as you say, you probably acknowledge that he did exist, right?

Did you see the movie The Passion of Christ by the way? If you did, what did you think of it?

Don’t hold your breath, deogratias. She picks and chooses the questions she wants to answer, conveniently forgetting to acknowledge the more difficult questions. And if it is too challenging, she will just pick up all together and move to a different forum. But hey … I saw the Passion of Christ and I loved it!!

 

[deogratias]

I am not trying to be mean or insult gay people, but their lives but their lives are full of bacteria, viruses and pathogens that are spread around very quickly and may pose a public heath risk.

Wait a minute - you mean "people who practice a homosexual life style The same could be said of prostitutes.

There really are “gay people” who are chaste but the same can’t be said of prostitutes.

The CCC says

**
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition

Remember Johannes we are called to HATE THE SIN AND NOT THE SINNER.**

 

[Guy]

I am not against the Latin Mass, NO or Tridentine Rite. I just was explaining the reasons Sacrosanctum Concillium allow the Mass to be celebrated in the vernacular.

Anyway–our instructor did upset me when she blasted the Holy Father for allowing the Tridentine Indult, and criticized Mother Angelica and Ave Maria College for going against the council and “throwing a monkey wrench into the liturgical reform”.

 

[squirt]

Ana:

Don’t hold your breath, deogratias. She picks and chooses the questions she wants to answer, conveniently forgetting to acknowledge the more difficult questions. And if it is too challenging, she will just pick up all together and move to a different forum. But hey … I saw the Passion of Christ and I loved it!!

Dang, she’s only 15 years old and she apologized and still everybody gangs up on here … what a place!!!

I’m sure glad that in most of the world, being Catholic isn’t taken as a license to attack!

Well, so long Catholic Answers forums … this place is starting to disgust me!

 

[deogratias]

Ana - yes I probably am wasting my breath but if we can save just one soul, collectively on this forum, God would be pleased.

 

[Ana]

squirt:

Dang, she’s only 15 years old and she apologized and still everybody gangs up on here … what a place!!!

I’m sure glad that in most of the world, being Catholic isn’t taken as a license to attack!

Well, so long Catholic Answers forums … this place is starting to disgust me!

Squirt, I was JUST KIDDING!! I get familiar and start joking and I forget how easy it is for things to be misread. I know she’s only fifteen … that’s why I’ve been EASY on her, besides the fact I like her. I wasn’t lying when I said she reminded me of me. I may have questioned her and challenged her, but I don’t think you will find in any of my posts that I attacked her.

deogratias, I didn’t mean to imply you were wasting your breath. Just don’t hold it!!

 

[deogratias]

squirt:

Dang, she’s only 15 years old and she apologized and still everybody gangs up on here … what a place!!!

I’m sure glad that in most of the world, being Catholic isn’t taken as a license to attack!

Well, so long Catholic Answers forums … this place is starting to disgust me!

Now now, EVERYONE did not gang up on her.

 

[Jacksquat89]

Hey im 15 also, didn’t read that she was. Thats cool

squirt:

Dang, she’s only 15 years old and she apologized and still everybody gangs up on here … what a place!!!

I’m sure glad that in most of the world, being Catholic isn’t taken as a license to attack!

Well, so long Catholic Answers forums … this place is starting to disgust me!

 

[agname]

siamesecat:

It doesnt. It prevents people from understanding mass. I was comparing it to the translation of the bible so that it could be more widely understood. The bible went from latin to vernacular, as did mass. Clergy and upperclass could read Latin but lower class, which I belive was most of the church members, could not, and therefore were unable to understand it. Was it Calvin who wanted to translate the bible? I believe as less and less people understood Latin (it is a dead language and I dont know anybody who does) it was decided that masses should not be in Latin. The facts about the corrupt church and translating the bible came from my world history and geo book.

Good ole revisionistic history.

My history teacher…in college…told me that hundreds of thousands died during the Spanish Inquisition…he argued for nearly an hour with me…then finally…

nationalreview.com/comment/madden200406181026.asp

it was put to rest.

 

[agname]

siamesecat:

Oh. Yeah, someday I may believe in god again, but I wont be a Catholic. I think Ill be a deist (someone who doesnt believe in organized religion) and just worship how I feel is morally right. As for a comment above I forgot to answer. “because im only 15 what you say sounds mean” doesnt make sense. My parents both agreed with much of the comments, as well as several other over 40 aged adults close to me. All 3 left the church. I am a well educated and well informed honor student who always reviews both sides of issues. 15 is old enough to judge when something is said with malice or not.

You should definitely put off your Confirmation.

If “Atheism is simply the lack of a belief in the divine.” How can one establish what is right or wrong without a belief in the divine? Since…what is right or wrong is set forth out of the fear of retribution and/or judgement from a higher power? To be truly atheist…would mean one would have to completely embrace Darwinism.

How can an Atheist be against murder…or believe in taking care
of the poor? What creature within nature takes care of the weak? None…it’s called natural selection. The fact is, religion dictated what was “right” and “wrong.” Joe Rock Caveman…didn’t arbitrarily make it up. You’re 15…this explains your nescience.

 

[agname]

More people have died from institutionalized Atheism, etc. than from any “religion.”

The greatest massacre ever committed by a sovereign gov against another is the 26.3 million Chinese killed under Mao Zedong between '49-'65.

The U.S. Senate Committee on the Judiciary back in July '71 placed the total death toll of Chinese since '49 to be between 32-62 million.

The worst per cap genocide occurred in Cambodia under Khmer Rouge.
More than 1/3 of 8 million Cambodians were murdered between April 17, 1975 and Jan '79.

Nobel Prize Winner Alexander Solzhenitsyn estimated that 66 million lives were taken between '17 and '59…under Lenin, Stalin, and Khrushchev.

In WWII…in Poland…2-3 million Polish Catholics were murdered.
By 1941 – 7000 Polish priests were executed (all found within the Nuremberg Trial documents – 3279-PS, etc.)…another 3000 were in concentration camps.

Document F-616 submitted as exhibit number RF-425…in the area of Nice…July 20, 1944…Nazi Germans went to a farm…raped the wife of the christian farm owner and crucified their 3 year old son.

Christian Slavs aka “Der Untermensch” (polish, czechs, yugoslavians, ukrainians)…referred to as part of the “inferior race” were all executed. (See testimony of Von Dem Bach)

3268-PS…a Polish priest was…scourged…had a crown of thorns placed on him…and was crucified in Dachau.

On, September 30, 1942…Dr. Gutkelch gave a report where Christian babies were ordered to be thrown off of moving trains (2520-PS and 084-PS)

1939…pilgrimages to national shrines were strictly prohibited…czech priests were robbed of their property and executed. SS Youth were assigned to whip priests…as the priests…in rags…would pull carts (p. 333…Volume 8…Nuremberg War Crimes Testimony)

German soldiers turned churches into stables…housing dogs and horses (the Church of the Prophet Elijah)…people were burned alive inside churches (Exhibit Number USSR-51(3)). In the village of Kholm…Germans beat up an 82 year old priest. In retreating from the Church of the Ascension…Germans blew up the Church…along with the Church of the Holy Trinity…and the Cathedral of Nicholas. Document USSR-12…German soldiers turned the Znamensky Cathedral into a huge latrine for soldiers.

Hans Frank (Nazi Minister of Justice and Nazi-Governor…General of Polani) before being executed stated…“At the beginning of our way we did not suspect that our turning away from God could have such disastrous deadly consequences”…and…“Hitler’s road was the way without God, the way of turning from Christ and, in the last analysis, the way of political foolishness, the way of disaster, and the way of death.”

I could go on and on…with testimonies, etc.

 

[siamesecat]

Jacksquat89:

Gay marriage is digusting and alot of people think so. So why should they not be able to voice there opinions?

You’re entitled to your opinion however I still find your comments mean and offensive and dont want to be part of a church where many people feel that way.

So if a person consents to letting you kill them then you are allowed to make that choice. Do you think that abortion is okay? Many people in their right minds support it, so why don’t we all hop on the bandwagon. Your arguements are so stuffed full of fallicies it’s not even funny. But you know thats cool to.

My argument isnt foolproof…but no ones really is. I trust my own morals that I am against murder and undecided on abortion but leaning towards pro-life. I am pro-gay marriage and contraception for other reasons. I trust my judgement as I am not a person who wishes to hurt other people. I dont believe in god, but if there was one, i think he would share my values because they seem like values a loving, kind, and forgiving god would want. I know many of you disagree with me, but Im not telling people to go out and kill each other because they think its morally right. I dont know how to explain it anymore, but Im going to go with how I feel on this one.

 

[deogratias]

I am pro-gay marriage and contraception for other reasons

I am interested in what these reasons are - how you came to accept them as moral decisions I mean.

 

[siamesecat]

deogratias:

I am interested in what these reasons are - how you came to accept them as moral decisions I mean.

My argument may be lost on you considering your reason why you’re against it is because god is…and I’m an atheist…but if you want to try and debate it with me…my instant messenger is siamesecat1414…my email is snailgirl4@aol.com. strangeminds.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=7928&mode is an essay i wrote about gay marriage and why i think it should be legal. I forgot my procreation argument though…so you’d have to talk to me about that. Like I said, without a real religious background I can only use my own morals and what your god says means nothing to me.

 

[deogratias]

I am not interested in debating it. I am interested in why and how you came to yoru conclusions. I’ll read your essay but I won’t be messaging you.

When you come to your decision on abortion I would be interested in that also. I did read that you were not sure about the “fetus”.

I can only tell you, when any women is pregnant, one who wants her child, she always refers to it as “my baby” from the beginning. She never says, “my fetus”.

While I always accepted that it was not something I could do, one time I did consider it a person’s free choice - to abort or not to abort. Once I fully realized that it was a life, a baby, not a cell, then I had to admit that I would not say comitting murder was someone’s free choice. I do refer you back to the commandments you said you accepted - thou shalt not kill - to me that includes any life within me as well as that born.

I noted you took quite a firm and moral stand on post birth abortion and your reasons for being against that would be the same as mine are for pre-birth abortion. There are always other alternatives. If our parents had aborted us, you and I, we of course could not be having this conversation at all.

 

[bob]

agname:

Good ole revisionistic history.

My history teacher…in college…told me that hundreds of thousands died during the Spanish Inquisition…he argued for nearly an hour with me…then finally…

nationalreview.com/comment/madden200406181026.asp

it was put to rest.

All I can say is Wow!
Great site.

Now we need to convince the anti-Catholics of the Protestant propaganda.
Have you any source of the breakdown of the scholars involved in the study? How many non-Catholic scholars in that team.

You should start a new post with this powerful refutation of the Inquisition.

 

[Cherub]

That is a very good article!! Cherub likes it. Look at this, however:

"To understand the Inquisition we have to remember that the Middle Ages were, well, medieval. We should not expect people in the past to view the world and their place in it the way we do today. (You try living through the Black Death and see how it changes your attitude.) For people who lived during those times, religion was not something one did just at church. It was science, philosophy, politics, identity, and hope for salvation. It was not a personal preference but an abiding and universal truth. Heresy, then, struck at the heart of that truth. It doomed the heretic, endangered those near him, and tore apart the fabric of community.

Now, tell me how this only applies to “people who lived during those times” where it says “religion was not something one did just at church…” etc…

Heresy didn’t just then strike at the heart of the truth. It still does. Are we Catholics the only people left on Earth who value an absolute truth?

(Now note that this in no way is being pro for the Inquisition! I am just taking that paragraph out of its context and into ours.! )

 

[bob]

siamesecat:

It doesnt. It prevents people from understanding mass. I was comparing it to the translation of the bible so that it could be more widely understood. The bible went from latin to vernacular, as did mass. Clergy and upperclass could read Latin but lower class, which I belive was most of the church members, could not, and therefore were unable to understand it. Was it Calvin who wanted to translate the bible? I believe as less and less people understood Latin (it is a dead language and I dont know anybody who does) it was decided that masses should not be in Latin. The facts about the corrupt church and translating the bible came from my world history and geo book.

Ok, I accept that you are an intelligent 15 year old honours student.

Could you enlighten me on where you learnt Catechism while preparing for Confirmation? We have a one-year Sunday classes preparing confirmants.

From what you state here on the forum, it seems that you prepared for confirmation in a Protestant institution. No offence meant here, just basing on the information that you have stated. No Catholic catechism class could have taught you that.

Read my earlier reply about use of Latin. It was more unifying than divisive.
Assuming that the Protestants were right about the “corrupt church” hiding the truth from the people by keeping the bible in Latin.
Who were those reformers? They were people who could read Latin! So what did the Church hide and from whom?

I repeat here, the early Church translated the bible from the original languages of Hebrew, Aramiac and Greek into the vernacular - the official language of the Roman Empire. No Protestant can claim that they were the first translators of the bible into vernacular!

Sure there were corrupt priests, bishops and popes, but these people were only a small percentage of the Church.
However, the teachings of the Church were always moral, and true to the bible.

You can never find in an organisation, church, etc a 100% walking living saints. That is Uthopia.
Look around your own family, friends and relatives.
Are they all 100% good and moral. Being atheist does not justify immorality. You yourself have a moral issue against murder.

You will do yourself a great justice to really see both sides of the coin where the Church is concerned.
Read Church history from the Catholic point of view instead of just Protestant and compare.
Read what the Catholic Church teaches about the issues you raised especially on morality.

You are on the threshold of adulthood, and those moral issues are going to mold the rest of your life.
Get it right, get it sound and you will be ok!
Get it wrong…disaster.

Even, if you are an atheist, I pray that you make the right decisions.