Why no more Latin?

[Iohannes]

Let me tell you with charity, that it is the wrong way to go.
If people decided to do what they feel is morally right based on feelings then we would all be in trouble. What if a person believes that killing people is ok and morally right because he feels that it is morally ok to do so? Or decide to cheat on their spouse because they feel that there is nothing wrong morally to do so. If you reduced morality to a human concept, you will encounter trouble sooner or later because our pride will always blind us.
I speak to you as a wretched sinner who needs God’s grace for his sins.

 

[Iohannes]

siamesecat:

The forum isnt why I wont make my confirmation, but it did play a part in it. I wasnt going to, but then my parents thought I should. I decided even though I didnt believe it wasnt a big deal. However, I decided last night I would not make my confirmation, and that was because of my being here at the forum and the things I read. It made me embarrassed to associate myself with the church and therefore I decided that I could not stay with the church. I dont know if i will ever believe again…it will take a miracle to bring me back I think. But unless I feel the church has made positive steps in certain areas I will never be Catholic. I dont believe the church will ever accept gay marriage or contraception, as those are key parts of it. So I probably will not come back to it. But by positive steps that could actually happen I mean things like allowing women to be priests which I do not think goes against church teachings. But I doubt I will ever find a church in which I believe everything which is why I think that if for some reason i feel there is a god watching over me i will be a deist.

You are correct in saying that the church will not accept contraception and gay “marriage”. It is impossible for the Church to do so because it is contrary to natural law.

The gay relationship is fruitless and sterile, they cannot have any children of their own, which is one reason why the “relationship” is wrong.

I cannot be a mother or give birth to children, that is reality. Women cannot become priests because they cannot be alter Christus(alter Christus) and that is reality. When we see our priests, we should see Christ, unfortunately pride and sins make it often difficult to do so.

The Church does not conform to humans we are to conform to the Church because it is perfect and immaculate despite the fact that the members are sinners. Human beings are imperfect as a result of original sin.

I suggest you read about the saintly child/teenager named St. Therese of Liseuix and another child of the name St. Alyosius(sp?). Their Charity, Faith and Hope inspires.

Only way to get into heaven is to become child-like again. Note Child-like and Childish are different things.

 

[Ana]

siamesecat:

I know some of my quotes were offensive, but Im also not claiming to do it in the name of god (Im an atheist).

You know some of your quotes are offensive, but that’s okay because (“Im an athiest”). Why is it okay to be offensive because you are an Athiest? Which you are not. Please study more. Atheism means a denial in the existance of God. You have said that you will someday believe in God. How can you someday believe in a God that you today says doesn’t exist? Will He just pop out of the sky at your convenience and begin to exist solely because you decided to believe in Him?Definition wise, you are Agnostic.
I am sure you don’t like organized religion. Then you might have to look to someone other than your wise fifteen years of experience to learn of a God who has been revealing Himself to His people since Adam and Eve. I am sure you have much more wisdom than St. Augustine, or “the guy sleeping in the chair”, or even an older person. But hey … I knew “everything” at fifteen too. In fact … You sound exactly like me at your age. Soooooo passionate, just no foundation from which to base my passions.
God bless

 

[Ana]

siamesecat:

The forum isnt why I wont make my confirmation, but it did play a part in it. I wasnt going to, but then my parents thought I should. I decided even though I didnt believe it wasnt a big deal.

But you said in an earlier post the Church was “corrupt”. How can joining a Church you believe to be corrupt,not be a big deal? Do you not stand up for what you believe in?

siamesecat:

However, I decided last night I would not make my confirmation, and that was because of my being here at the forum and the things I read.

Why do you hold us to higher standards than you do Athiests? Is it because you really do believe we are Christs Church? Is that why you are sooo dissapointed with our impatience to rudeness and poor discussion skills? Go ahead walk away in a huff. You have much to learn. It’s hard to see our own pride unless it is wounded. God be with you.

Just curious, would you describe Jesus anger and actions in the Temple uncharitable?

siamesecat:

it would take a miracle to bring me back I think.

You’re probably right, it did me. And as long as YOU are the one holding the reigns. You will be flying around at the mercy of every wind of false doctrine that blows … as you already are.

siamesecat:

but unless I feel the church has made positive steps in certain areas I will never be Catholic.

You mean what you PERCEIVE to be positive steps. I don’t think it would say much for our Church if it’s source for the Truth’s of God was a fifteen year old (false) Athiest. What do the two of you have in common? Anyway our Church has been in formation for over two thousand years, and how long has your formation been?

siamesecat:

I dont believe the church will ever accept gay marriage or contraception, as those are key parts of it. So I probably will not come back to it.

Actually the Euacharist is. It is described in the Catechism as “the summit” of our Faith.

siamesecat:

But by positive steps that could actually happen I mean things like allowing women to be priests which I do not think goes against church teachings.

I challenge you to post the Church’s teachings on these issues. All you know is that her position is against yours, but you do not know why. How can you, without knowing WHY she holds these positions, make an adequate judgement?

siamesecat:

But I doubt I will ever find a church in which I believe everything

You already have. You. You serve only yourself. Therefore, you are your God and your church. Or if you want to, you can always just go and start a new church as our Protestant brothers have been doing since the Reformation.

siamesecat:

which is why I think that if for some reason i feel there is a god watching over me i will be a deist.

Then if you think he is … he suddenly will be ? Where was he before? This is a false god. One you create, not the God who created you.

God bless

 

[Ana]

BTW siamesecat, you are delightfully stubborn! God has BIG plans for you.

 

[Catholic_Eagle]

siamesecat:

It is true. We studied Catholic history this year. They kept many of the lower class church members ignorant by allowing only the clergy to read the bible. of course not all church hierarchy was corrupt, but many were. This was at a time where lay investiture and nepotism were common, the popes exile to Babylon was taking place, lots of corruption in the church. This was centuries ago, however. Im not saying this all still takes place. It was like Roman Empire times and sometime after. the 1200s maybe. Piffle…thats an interesting expression lol. But it was translated so that people could interpret the bible for themselves and see the messages.

The Popes were never exiled to Babylon, but there is a time period called the Babylonian exile" of the Popes when the Holy See moved its headquarters to Avingnon, in the south of France. What time period are you talking about? In one sentence you talk about the Roman Empire[300-400] and then you talk about the 1200’s. Your mix one period of time with another. Did a baptist teach you Church history? Because this what you learned seems like one of the attacks by baptsts/protestants on how the Roman Catholic CHurch.

 

[Catholic_Eagle]

QUOTE=siamesecat]I am in no way telling you to be perfect. What I think a Catholic should be is a kind accepting person who leaves God to do the judging, maybe Im wrong, but I thought that was the Christian way of life. So far, Ive seen you bash political candidates, say you were disgusted with gay people, call JK Rowling a Satanist, insult Protestants, Jews, and Hindus, and thats just the start. I realize some of these people have beliefs contrary to yours but I find some of the things written downright malicious which is very un-Christian. I’ve just become so turned off from the church after visiting this site. After letting my mom explore the site she said it was ok for me not to make my confirmation. Now Im not speaking of all of you, Im sure there are some very nice people here and I have seen nice posts or even posts that although I dont agree with them, were presented in a reasonable way, not in a hateful way. I do not hate all the teachings of the church, but I hate the way you people are picking and choosing so that you can be above others. Apparently be kind to your neighbor is insignificant when it comes to marriage is between a man and a woman, regardless of whether or not you support it, theres no need to be mean about it.

Well then Jesus Christ then must be an evil person if He said thatmarriage is between a man and woman. Being kind to your neighbor doesn’t mean letting that person do anything he wants. If your neighbor wants to kill himself do you let him do it, or do you tell him to not do it? Well according to you we should allow him to do it because it is “intolerant” to reprimand anyone. If a person wants to walk off a cliff in Niagara Falls, should you tell him not to do it or should you let him commit suicide? Well according to you we should let him do it. “Love your neighbor” doesn’t mean that we have to keep quiet and acceptpeople the way they are. Actually Catholicism tells us to fix and make oursleves us better and stronger. Catholicism teaches us to lift ourselves out of this sad world and to aspire for Heaven. Our earthly dispositions wantus to eat to much,be lazy,to look at porn,et cetera nad et cetera. We have to rise above these earthly things. This is essential to Catholicism. The want for earthly things is what casues some men/women to marry others of the same sex
.

 

[deogratias]

With all due respect Catholic Eagle, the young woman is saying she does not even believe in God - and who knows what or who she thinks Jesus is. Probably we should ask her.

 

[deogratias]

Siamese Cat.

Well we have established at this time you do not believe in God, although I suspect you are more agnostic than atheist.

Who do you think Jesus was/is? Since you have studied religions as you say, you probably acknowledge that he did exist, right?

Did you see the movie The Passion of Christ by the way? If you did, what did you think of it?

 

[Guy]

We were just talking about this today in our class on the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy in our deacon formation program. We learned that the council fathers desired to foster full active and concious participation in the liturgy. When the Mass was in Latin, the average Joe Sixpack in the pew could not understand the language so he or she could not actively or conciously participate. He or she tended to participate in private devotions (eg Rosary, Stations, meditating on the stained glass pictures) while the Mass was going on. In order for the assembly to fully, actively, and conciously participate in the liturgy, the Mass was allowed to be celebrated in the vernacular.

 

[siamesecat]

Ana:

You know some of your quotes are offensive, but that’s okay because (“Im an athiest”). Why is it okay to be offensive because you are an Athiest? Which you are not. Please study more. Atheism means a denial in the existance of God. You have said that you will someday believe in God. How can you someday believe in a God that you today says doesn’t exist? Will He just pop out of the sky at your convenience and begin to exist solely because you decided to believe in Him?Definition wise, you are Agnostic.
I am sure you don’t like organized religion. Then you might have to look to someone other than your wise fifteen years of experience to learn of a God who has been revealing Himself to His people since Adam and Eve. I am sure you have much more wisdom than St. Augustine, or “the guy sleeping in the chair”, or even an older person. But hey … I knew “everything” at fifteen too. In fact … You sound exactly like me at your age. Soooooo passionate, just no foundation from which to base my passions.
God bless

No. I shouldntve had made some of the comments i did. It is not okay for me to be offensive only because I am an atheist. However, I’ve seen many uneccessarily offensive posts made by people claiming to be good Catholics fighting for god. Its one thing to disagree with gay marriage, its another to call them disgusting. I didnt say I will believe in god again…I dont believe he exists (I dont deny him…pretty hard to deny sometihng that is non existant)…but if something ever happened and I did believe like some miracle occured to make me believe, I think I would be a deist… But I dont believe god exists so I dont think that will ever happen. Im not claiming to know everything, considering I know many adults who share my opinions. I dont like organized religion because I think it causes corruption among the leaders. I dont get into trouble, I obey parents and teachers. I have no problem listening to people older than me, in fact I often as my dad to explain why he believes certain things so that I can learn from him. But if I felt certain teachings by elders were wrong, as in the church, I would not follow them. As for a previous post, you have a point about what people think is morally acceptable. Someone who believes murder is morallyacceptable doesnt make it right. But things like murder and rape, which are deliberate harm of another being, are thought as wrong by the vast majority of people . People who believe that it is right usually have some severe mental issues. Other things, such as gay marriage, although the church doesnt agree with it, is not a deliberate harming of an unconsenting person, and plenty of people in their right mind support it.

 

[deogratias]

I am sorry you encountered some Catholics who expressed hate for homosexuals. Catholics do not teach that we should hate homosexuals - but both the old and new Testament and Catholics and Jews alike do not condone homosexual life styles.

The church certainly will encourage anyone, homosexual or heterosexual to live a chaste life.

catholic.com/library/Homosexuality.asp

This will fill you in on exactly what we teach and why without any personal homophobia or hate interjected.

And for the reasons Catholics and most other Christians are against Homosexual marriage, this is also a very good nonemotional article.

catholic.com/library/gay_marriage.asp

This seems a very big issue with you and so I thought you might just like to read these for information since you have had bad experiences with open forum discussion of the subject.

 

[aaron_brown99]

Guy:

When the Mass was in Latin, the average Joe Sixpack in the pew could not understand the language so he or she could not actively or conciously participate.

I’ve heard this over and over, and it just doesn’t ring true as a legitimate reason to alter the ancient Rite of the Mass. I’ve attended exactly five Tridentine Masses, and I’m already picking up enough latin to know what prayer I’m hearing (some of the time), and with a Missal I can “pray the Mass” right along with the Priest.

Guy:

In order for the assembly to fully, actively, and conciously participate in the liturgy, the Mass was allowed to be celebrated in the vernacular.

Again, this seems to be a conclusion without a valid premise. If all the modernists wanted was more participation, why not change something small, see the results, and make other small changes as appropriate? Even after attending only a few Tridentine Masses I could make a few minor suggestions (such as doing all the readings in the vernacular, and have the people do many of the responses instead of just the server) that would raise participation to at least the levels I see at my NO parish.

 

[Guy]

aaron_brown99:

I’ve heard this over and over, and it just doesn’t ring true as a legitimate reason to alter the ancient Rite of the Mass. I’ve attended exactly five Tridentine Masses, and I’m already picking up enough latin to know what prayer I’m hearing (some of the time), and with a Missal I can “pray the Mass” right along with the Priest.

Again, this seems to be a conclusion without a valid premise. If all the modernists wanted was more participation, why not change something small, see the results, and make other small changes as appropriate? Even after attending only a few Tridentine Masses I could make a few minor suggestions (such as doing all the readings in the vernacular, and have the people do many of the responses instead of just the server) that would raise participation to at least the levels I see at my NO parish.

Yes, but, beautiful as it is, is the Tridentine really the Ancient Rite? Vat II sought to restore the full participation in the liturgy by the laity.

 

[Guy]

I am not against the use of Latin. The best Mass I ever participated in was at Christ the King parish in Ann Arbor, MI on the grounds of Domino’s Farms. In one sense, the service was very traditional with the Gloria, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei SUNG in Latin. On the other hand the Mass was very contemporary with an awesome music ministry using contemporary worship songs, and a period of praise in tongues after the Gloria.

 

[Guy]

I can’t remember attending a Tridentine Mass (too young!!!). I have heard it is very beautiful. But the NO in the vernacular can be just as beautiful when it is done right and with the reverence due to the Eucharistic Lord.

 

[deogratias]

Vat II sought to restore the full participation in the liturgy by the laity

One can fully participate in the Tridentine Mass - it is just not done in the same way.

If it is a dialogue Mass, they can even say the responses.

Most of the Tridentine Masses have the Epistle and the Gospel read in English following their being read in Latin and the homily is in English.

But we assist and participate. The congregation prays silently using the same words that the priest uses in their own language or in Latin if they prefer. These powerful words ask that the Sacrifice, Christ’s Body and Blood and their Communion, be acceptable to God, that the priest and people be made holy enough to offer that Sacrifice, that they, their parish, their families living and deceased, friends, and benefactors benefit from the grace of the Sacrifice. This heartfelt prayer of the priest and congregation helps save the world, again, each time the Mass is offered.

Just as at the NOM, the priest acts as teh representative of the church in offering Christ to the heavenly Father. The priest celebrating the Mass is the spokesperson of the people and the prayers of the Mass are such that all present join in at least in mind if not in word. We unite our hearts and minds to the action of the priest and we offer up the Sacrifice together with him.

Of course just as with the NOM our actively, but silently taking part in the Mass we give our personal consent to the Sacrifice which Christ made for all men. Through Christ we offer ourselves up to God. And like the NOM, the Mass is a sacrifice that gives us the intimate cntact with God, a contact which is perfected sacramentally when we receive communion.

Most congregants use a missal that gives both the Latin and the vernacular words of the Holy Mass and there is no better way for the laity to assist than by use of the Missal. In this manner we follow each action of the priest, silently recite with him precisely the same prayers and thus identify ourselves with the divine Lord . Through the use of the Missal we enter into the spirit and meaning of the sacrifice and also accompany every part with the wrods which the voice of the church has declared best suited for that purpose.

For some of us, we can participate more actively albeit internally without the distraction of all the vocal participation of the NOM

 

[Jacksquat89]

Gay marriage is digusting and alot of people think so. So why should they not be able to voice there opinions?

siamesecat:

Its one thing to disagree with gay marriage, its another to call them disgusting.

siamesecat:

As for a previous post, you have a point about what people think is morally acceptable. Someone who believes murder is morallyacceptable doesnt make it right. But things like murder and rape, which are deliberate harm of another being, are thought as wrong by the vast majority of people . People who believe that it is right usually have some severe mental issues. Other things, such as gay marriage, although the church doesnt agree with it, is not a deliberate harming of an unconsenting person, and plenty of people in their right mind support it.

So if a person consents to letting you kill them then you are allowed to make that choice. Do you think that abortion is okay? Many people in their right minds support it, so why don’t we all hop on the bandwagon. Your arguements are so stuffed full of fallicies it’s not even funny. But you know thats cool to.

 

[Ana]

siamesecat:

However, I’ve seen many uneccessarily offensive posts made by people claiming to be good Catholics fighting for god.

I don’t think it is ever NECESSARY to be offensive, by anyone. It is never fruitful. I think both sides of the fence have been hurt by offensive posts. Shoot, if we judged our criteria by the actions of others, no one would ever be anything, and probably most loyal Catholics, frustrated by the infiltration of modernism wouldn’t be Catholics either.:banghead:

siamesecat:

Its one thing to disagree with gay marriage, its another to call them disgusting.

You are absolutly right. This is NOT Church teaching!!:tsktsk: Please read the links so graciously provided by deogratias.

siamesecat:

I didnt say I will believe in god again…I dont believe he exists (I dont deny him…pretty hard to deny sometihng that is non existant)…but if something ever happened and I did believe like some miracle occured to make me believe, I think I would be a deist…But I dont believe god exists so I dont think that will ever happen.

May I ask why you had ANY interest in being confirmed? You do know that during confirmation it is required that you make a proclamation of faith?

siamesecat:

Im not claiming to know everything, considering I know many adults who share my opinions. I dont like organized religion because I think it causes corruption among the leaders.

Again why were you thinking about becoming Catholic then?

siamesecat:

I dont get into trouble, I obey parents and teachers. I have no problem listening to people older than me, in fact I often as my dad to explain why he believes certain things so that I can learn from him.

Sounds like you have a wonderful father who cultivated a good relationship with you. May God bless him.

siamesecat:

But if I felt certain teachings by elders were wrong, as in the church, I would not follow them.

We do not have "elders’ with teaching authority. I know what teachings you have issue with, but until you can adequately present the Church’s teaching in question, you can not claim they are wrong. You can’t read just a title or back cover of a book (or even others remarks) and say it stinks. You would have much more credibility if you said, I read the whole book and IT STINKS!!

siamesecat:

As for a previous post, you have a point about what people think is morally acceptable. Someone who believes murder is morallyacceptable doesnt make it right. But things like murder and rape, which are deliberate harm of another being, are thought as wrong by the vast majority of people.People who believe that it is right usually have some severe mental issues.

There was a time when contraception, and abortion was considered wrong by the vast majority. Also, a time if a girl wore a low-cut, spaghetti strap, halter top, with a pair of shorts that had “sexy” written in glitter across the tush, they would assume she was “working”. There was also a time … you know what? I think your onto something with the severe mental illness.

siamesecat:

Other things, such as gay marriage, although the church doesnt agree with it, is not a deliberate harming of an unconsenting person, and plenty of people in their right mind support it.

POP QUIZ!! Can you tell me WHY she doesn’t agree with it?

Harm is harm, whether it’s deliberate or not. If I accidently hit you with my car, is your leg REALLY broke? Are you REALLY dead? But my intention was just to mind my own business, I didn’t see you there. You can’t really be hurt, it wasn’t deliberate.

 

[Iohannes]

The harm of those consenting people is the spreading of diseases and filth. I am not trying to be mean or insult gay people, but their lives are full of bacteria, viruses and pathogens that are spread around very quickly and may pose a public heath risk.