Why no veil?

  • Thread starter Thread starter FatherOfTwelve
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
FofT you keep going on about the bishop removing his head covering so I’m going to jump in here. I live in a tiny diocese and have been to many masses where the bishop presided. Yes, he does remove his mitre but underneath it he is wearing the little cap that looks like a yarmulke (don’t know the proper word for it). So his head is not completely bear.
 
Not to beat a dead horse, but that’s what I’m saying it is the SAME. The Bishops are required to remove the covering hense the ladies “Should” be required to put one on. It’s the same. It’s not from scripture alone, the tradition was started (never has stopped), it was recorded in scripture and the Magesterium obey it. I think I really stink at the art of getting my point across.😦
=============================
When I go into a Church I cover my head…it’s only polite. I disagree with certain things that Catholics do, however this one is easy enough to comply with and I do think it’s a matter of respect. If Catholic women think that it’s not necessary then I don’t judge them,
but I’m not covering my head for the Catholics, but for the God they worship. Even Rachel Maddow covers HER head in Afghanistan.
 
FofT you keep going on about the bishop removing his head covering so I’m going to jump in here. I live in a tiny diocese and have been to many masses where the bishop presided. Yes, he does remove his mitre but underneath it he is wearing the little cap that looks like a yarmulke (don’t know the proper word for it). So his head is not completely bear.
The mitre comes off as you say, “The Little Cap” comes off right before the Eucharistic Prayer, Consecration. ALWAYS! 👍
 
=============================
When I go into a Church I cover my head…it’s only polite. I disagree with certain things that Catholics do, however this one is easy enough to comply with and I do think it’s a matter of respect. If Catholic women think that it’s not necessary then I don’t judge them,
but I’m not covering my head for the Catholics, but for the God they worship. Even Rachel Maddow covers HER head in Afghanistan.
Well I’ll be, Amen Sister! 👍
 
Not to beat a dead horse, but that’s what I’m saying it is the SAME. The Bishops are required to remove the covering hense the ladies “Should” be required to put one on. It’s the same. It’s not from scripture alone, the tradition was started (never has stopped), it was recorded in scripture and the Magesterium obey it. I think I really stink at the art of getting my point across.😦
The Bishops are required to remove the covering hense the ladies “Should” be required to put one one? That’s the rationale you have for women wearing something on their head while at Mass? While I’m sure that makes a world of sense to you, I have to respectfully say that it does not to me 😦

Anyway, I’ve never had a priest tell me that a headcovering is required. Surely a priest would be aware of the rules of the Church. Therefore, it remains a matter of opinion and preference.
 
The Bishops are required to remove the covering hense the ladies “Should” be required to put one one? That’s the rationale you have for women wearing something on their head while at Mass? While I’m sure that makes a world of sense to you, I have to respectfully say that it does not to me 😦

Anyway, I’ve never had a priest tell me that a headcovering is required. Surely a priest would be aware of the rules of the Church. Therefore, it remains a matter of opinion and preference.
I highly doubt that! You come accross as a very strong church lady. Your parish priest is probably scared to death of you:eek:
Sorry, couldn’t help that:blush: I am smiling, I’ll have you know I do believe strong women are good for the Church. Our 12th child was born this past may 20th. A sonogram photo showed the baby making a perfect bicep muscle flex. I thought, WOW a strong boy is on the Way!!! Theeeeen the sonogram showed not exactly what I had in mind. So, Miriam Ruth is her name. (we already had her brother - Moses) Two very strong women of God. So I’m sure I’m in for some challanges in years to come. Rence, it’s been a very eye opening little chat. I’ll let it go. I would ask you this, try to figure out why it would be good for women to wear a veil. What could possibly be the point in it all. I’m going to write up my own little thesis and will post it here in a day or two. Please comment.
Peace and God Bless you:thumbsup:
 
I highly doubt that! You come accross as a very strong church lady. Your parish priest is probably scared to death of you:eek:
LOL, he should be 😛 I know the pastor who brought on the dancing girls was!
Sorry, couldn’t help that:blush: I am smiling, I’ll have you know I do believe strong women are good for the Church. Our 12th child was born this past may 20th. A sonogram photo showed the baby making a perfect bicep muscle flex. I thought, WOW a strong boy is on the Way!!! Theeeeen the sonogram showed not exactly what I had in mind. So, Miriam Ruth is her name. (we already had her brother - Moses) Two very strong women of God.
Congratulations!! 🙂
So I’m sure I’m in for some challanges in years to come. Rence, it’s been a very eye opening little chat. I’ll let it go. I would ask you this, try to figure out why it would be good for women to wear a veil. What could possibly be the point in it all. I’m going to write up my own little thesis and will post it here in a day or two. Please comment.
Peace and God Bless you:thumbsup:
Ok, I look forward to reading it 🙂 As to what I think the point of it all: 1) back when women were required to wear a head covering, I think it may have been a modesty and humility issue. Women in the biblical times covered everything but their face. And the act of humility that nuns make when they cut off their hair and put on the veil makes me think this. We don’t subscribe to this version of modesty though and I’m not a nun 2) it could be to prevent men’s straying eyes from being distracted by what they see as pretty hair. I don’t buy this answer either because I give men more credit than that.

But before we were Catholic, we were Jewish and married Jewish women still cut off and cover their hair. I’m not sure why, but modesty and humility can’t be the reason because the ladies I know have the most beautiful wigs I’ve ever seen, and frequent the salon for manicures and pedicures and do their makeup very well. In other words, they’re gorgeous and not shy about it. Regardless of the reason, I don’t believe it’s a requirement. But if women feel called to wear the veil, they should wear it, not for anyone else but for themselves.
 
But if women feel called to wear the veil, they should wear it, not for anyone else but for themselves.
No woman who covers her head does it for herself - that is the worst reason possible. We do it for our love, obedience, and reverence to Christ in the Eucharist, and also to our husbands if we are married. Covering for selfish and vain reasons is entirely counter productive. Trust me - it is not easy to be the only woman showing up to Mass in a new parish with your head covered. It is done for the reasons I cite above, no one puts themselves through that for selfish motives.

~Liza
 
FofT you keep going on about the bishop removing his head covering so I’m going to jump in here. I live in a tiny diocese and have been to many masses where the bishop presided. Yes, he does remove his mitre but underneath it he is wearing the little cap that looks like a yarmulke (don’t know the proper word for it). So his head is not completely bear.
Is it called a zucchetto?
 
It’s one in the same, I apologize I thought most Catholics knew that the Bishop takes his “Covering” off. ?
and this has what to do with ladies wearing head coverings? Bishops are not ladies.

those of us ladies who do wear a headcovering of some type do so out of personal conviction that it is a pious and modest practice, out of devotion, not because we are ordered to do so. Just as Catholics undertake many pious practices out of personal conviction rather than laws. No one here has posted any canon law from any period of history requiring women to wear headcoving in Church. If the Pope wanted to restore this cultural custom he would have issued such a decree probably at the same time he restored the EF. He didn’t, so it is not required. Period. The conduct of bishops and priests during liturgy is another matter entirely and governed by other codes, the GIRM, the other rites and ceremonials and the like, and don’t apply to laity. Laymen in the pews don’t wear albs or vestments.

And felicitations on the advent of Miriam Ruth, very wise not to rely on those ultrasound pictures.
 
No woman who covers her head does it for herself - that is the worst reason possible. We do it for our love, obedience, and reverence to Christ in the Eucharist, and also to our husbands if we are married. Covering for selfish and vain reasons is entirely counter productive. Trust me - it is not easy to be the only woman showing up to Mass in a new parish with your head covered. It is done for the reasons I cite above, no one puts themselves through that for selfish motives.
~Liza
Liza, honestly, do it for whatever reason you like 🙂 And you would not have any problem whatsoever walking into Mass with your head covered next to me. To me, it’s no different than pulling up your hair in a tight bun because you hadnt washed it yet. Just another way for a woman to wear their hair, nothing more to me. All that I ask is that those of you who choose to cover your head do not insist that I do the same. Not saying you do, just saying in general. And that’s really not too much to ask 🙂

IMOHO, a Catholic woman wearing a head covering is no different that an Amish, Mennonite, or Jewish (or even Muslim) woman wearing a head covering. The important thing IMOHO is that you cover it of your own free will.
 
IMOHO, a Catholic woman wearing a head covering is no different that an Amish, Mennonite, or Jewish (or even Muslim) woman wearing a head covering. The important thing IMOHO is that you cover it of your own free will.
And if today the Church told you that you had to have your head covered at Mass, would you do it tomorrow, even if it is not “your own free will”?

~Liza
 
I went to school grades 1-6 at a convent in the early 60’s. I remember wearing a veil when we visited the chapel on Fridays, and I have a vague recollection of wearing one in church on Sundays. I don’t know why the practise fell out of favour, maybe it had something to do with rebelling against Paul’s apparant chauvenism – not me but my mother’s generation (it was the 60’s after all).🤷
 
Liza, honestly, do it for whatever reason you like 🙂 And you would not have any problem whatsoever walking into Mass with your head covered next to me. To me, it’s no different than pulling up your hair in a tight bun because you hadnt washed it yet. Just another way for a woman to wear their hair, nothing more to me. All that I ask is that those of you who choose to cover your head do not insist that I do the same. Not saying you do, just saying in general. And that’s really not too much to ask 🙂

IMOHO, a Catholic woman wearing a head covering is no different that an Amish, Mennonite, or Jewish (or even Muslim) woman wearing a head covering. The important thing IMOHO is that you cover it of your own free will.
With respect, Rence, the last sentence shows you have it absolutely backward.

“Free will” is here basically a synonym meaning, ‘you should always be making your own choice’. . .and that is a kind of deadly poison today that has taken a good thing in itself (the idea that one can choose, with the hope that in doing so one chooses wisely and well, not poorly) and turned it into a god.

"Choice, choice, choice’. The only thing important to most people today is that **they get to do what they want. **

It’s the 11th commandment. . .“Thou shalt choose to do as thou wilt, for that is the law and the prophets and more important than any stuffy stinking law or any kind of obedience to an authority.’”

As has been said by wiser voices than mine, the call to cover/veil (or use of hats) is not something that I do ‘for myself’ or because I ‘freely choose’ it as though it is 'just another in a large ‘menu’ of choices that I can ‘pick and choose’ from in the great Catholic cafeteria.

NEITHER is it some oppression imposed upon me which I cannot ‘fight’ or which I am coerced into, unhappily and ‘against my will’ under pain of sin, death, and damnation.

It is what it is. . . a pious practice yes, something which I ‘choose’ but neither from being ‘forced’ nor as a 'gee, what thing will I do today to show I’m Catholic" POV. . . it is a tradition through which we humbly submit ourselves in obedience to both Scriptural and Traditional practice to God’s greater glory, FOR God’s greater glory.

Too often things like veiling as presented as extremes. . .either the ‘quaint’ or the ‘modern’, the ‘male symbol of oppression’ or the ‘freedom to be equals with men’, the ‘tired medievalist’ or the ‘21st century’, the ‘burden’ or the ‘choice’ --and those both denigrate the practice and trivialize it into nothing ‘more’ than one of several thousand petty little ‘choices’, no more or less than whether one wants to grab the morning coffee at Dunkin Donuts or Starbucks because while there are proponents who are ‘fanatics’ about one or the other, in the end, it’s only coffee so what does it really matter to most?

Whether consciously or not, the thrust of the topic of ‘covering’ by many has been, 'it’s only a (stupid) petty little gesture, so what does it matter, ‘choose’ what you LIKE, but don’t try to tell me it’s any more than some archaic practice with no other meaning.

But it is not. . .and that’s the problem.

I understand that for a lot of women who don’t like how they ‘look’ in a hat, or who feel acutely uncomfortable, it is certainly a sacrifice to consider covering, and I sympathize, I really do.

And I understand that for even more women, who have been conditioned to feel that covering is DEMEANING and represents ‘oppression’ and all the worst and most vile anti-woman feelings, it would be even MORE of a sacrifice to cover. These women would have to fight all those negative feelings and attitudes and ingrained cultural and indeed academic teachings. . .basically they’d be having to admit those were ‘wrong’ (in time). Nobody likes finding out they’ve been wrong, especially when they have been zealously attempting to do the right thing all their lives!

But we really need to explore not just how we get the knee jerk ‘feelings’ but what–and why–we have been taught what we have been taught about the practice of women covering throughout history, and in Scripture, and in Tradition. . .

And not to fall into the trap of “If things were wrong they’d be changed by now.” I refer any of that mind to a study of Christian history. Years, even decades, would go by of people engaging in ‘wrongs’ of various types before the problem became so widespread that it received official ‘attention.’

I urge you to read both sides of the question and to pay particular attention to the ‘side’ with which you** do not agree** in order that you can make a more impartial evaluation.
 
And if today the Church told you that you had to have your head covered at Mass, would you do it tomorrow, even if it is not “your own free will”?

~Liza
No.

And the Church won’t do that. I haven’t worn a hat (not a veil) to Church since I was about 10…maybe…1968 when it was “no longer required.”

Wearing a veil to Church doesn’t make a woman more pious/holy/modest than going into a garage makes one a car.

It is custom and tradition, period. If we are still into customs and traditions…we would still be wearing dresses to the floor (and always dresses)…and mere “property” for our husbands.

I enjoy living in this “century”.
 
And if today the Church told you that you had to have your head covered at Mass, would you do it tomorrow, even if it is not “your own free will”?

~Liza
Probably not. Maybe if it was below freezing. But I don’t have to worry about such things because that’s not likely to happen anyway. So why make dilemmas where there aren’t any? 🙂
 
With respect, Rence, the last sentence shows you have it absolutely backward.
But of course 🙂
“Free will” is here basically a synonym meaning, ‘you should always be making your own choice’. . .and that is a kind of deadly poison today that has taken a good thing in itself (the idea that one can choose, with the hope that in doing so one chooses wisely and well, not poorly) and turned it into a god.

"Choice, choice, choice’. The only thing important to most people today is that **they get to do what they want. **
I rather like being able to make my own decisions. That’s true 🙂 And I do.
It’s the 11th commandment. . .“Thou shalt choose to do as thou wilt, for that is the law and the prophets and more important than any stuffy stinking law or any kind of obedience to an authority.’”

As has been said by wiser voices than mine, the call to cover/veil (or use of hats) is not something that I do ‘for myself’ or because I ‘freely choose’ it as though it is 'just another in a large ‘menu’ of choices that I can ‘pick and choose’ from in the great Catholic cafeteria.
I’m sorry, but I respectfully disagree. Those who wear a veil choose to wear the veil, no one is holding them down and putting it on them. They are put it on themselves. Every action or inaction is a choice. You choose to wear the veil, you choose not to wear the veil. Now, I feel badly for those who are coerced into doing so, but I think the ladies here on CAF pretty much choose of their own will to wear them for whatever reason they feel called to do so. And those who refuse others the right to make their own choices are Cafeteria Catholics themselves, they just choose different entrees. Women are not required to wear the veil anymore, and to insist they have to and should, is just choosing a different entree. Just like insisting that all catholics must attend TLM or that Vatican II should be ‘reversed’. Just another entree in that big Catholic Cafeteria.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top