Why not ask Mary and the Saints for prayers?

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jrtrent said:
I accept that there are lots of things I don’t know with certainty regarding the faith. Protestants recognize legitimate differences of opinion among denominations on many things, particularly concerning the sacraments, church government, and even whether salvation should be from a Calvinistic or Arminian perspective. Each believes his position is supportable, yet recognizes another’s right to come to a different conclusion and still be considered a brother in Christ.
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This is the heart of Protestant theology, and something that will never, ever make any sort of sense to me.

“I’m right, and I can support my claim, but hey, we’re all brothers in Christ, even if I think they’re blatantly Bad-wrong.”

With this kind of of absolute relativism, what does it even mean to call yourself a “brother in Christ?”

How can discussion proceed to the correctness or incorrectness of Catholic doctrines and Traditions if it doesn’t really matter if you think we’re right or wrong?

🤷:confused:🤷
 
Lochias said:
This is the heart of Protestant theology, and something that will never, ever make any sort of sense to me.

“I’m right, and I can support my claim, but hey, we’re all brothers in Christ, even if I think they’re blatantly Bad-wrong.”

With this kind of of absolute relativism, what does it even mean to call yourself a “brother in Christ?”

How can discussion proceed to the correctness or incorrectness of Catholic doctrines and Traditions if it doesn’t really matter if you think we’re right or wrong?

🤷:confused:🤷
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I see where you are coming from totally.

If you ask a Christian if a Mormon is a Christian, they will say no. If you ask a fundamentalist if a Catholic is a Christian, they will say no. So obviously, difference of opinion can cause much division.

When I was Souther Baptist, it was taught that praying to Mary and the Saints was idol worship and would send someone to Hell. Meaning that since Catholics pray to Mary and the Saints, we go to Hell.

How on earth does that make us brothers and sisters in Christ? I would never proclaim that my brother or sister is hell bound. 🤷
 
Lochias said:
With this kind of of absolute relativism, what does it even mean to call yourself a “brother in Christ?”
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The Roman Catholic church recognizes Orthodox Christians and even some Protestants as “brothers in Christ.” Why can’t I do the same?

“. . . one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.” CCC 818

Commenting on Mark 9:38-41, Matthew Henry said, “If sinners are brought to repent, to believe in the Saviour, and to live sober, righteous, and godly lives, we then see that the Lord works by the preacher.” Anyone that this description applies to is, to me, a brother in Christ, I don’t care what church they go to or what other doctrinal differences we may have.
How can discussion proceed to the correctness or incorrectness of Catholic doctrines and Traditions if it doesn’t really matter if you think we’re right or wrong?
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Why must the point of the discussion be the correctness or incorrectess of Catholic doctrines and Traditions? The OP asked why not ask Mary and the Saints for prayers, and I gave my reason in post 14 of this thread. As I mentioned in post 41, even Christians in Paul’s time weren’t in perfect agreement on all points of the faith. For Protestants, these differences don’t necessarily mean we aren’t all Christians. Even those Protestants who have been most vocal about the errors of Romanism don’t deny that there are true Christians to be found there. Boettner said that the Roman Church “teaches the inspiration of the Scriptures, the deity of Christ, the virgin birth, the miracles, the resurrection of the body, a future judgement, heaven and hell, and many other Scripture truths.” And John R. Rice wrote, “Any who have personally repented of their sins and have trusted Jesus Christ to forgive their sins and save their souls are saved. In spite of the trappings and forms of Romanism, some, no doubt, have in their hearts found the Saviour.”
 
jrtrent said:
I accept that there are lots of things I don’t know with certainty regarding the faith. Protestants recognize legitimate differences of opinion among denominations on many things, particularly concerning the sacraments, church government, and even whether salvation should be from a Calvinistic or Arminian perspectiv

How can you then make this compatible with the Lord’s prayer that we be on in John, and in what Ephesians say…one faith, one baptism, one belief?
Do we know everything there is to know about angels? No. In fact, some theologians have said that there is so little information that trying to have a doctrine of angels is almost futile. Sections on angels in most systematic theologies are short; the author says what he believes the Bible clearly lets us know about them, and that isn’t much compared to some other subjects. Some systematic theologies don’t have a section on angels at all.
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When I pray, I pray to God, I avoid repetive prayers, I may need repetition when someone speaks to me before I understand what they are telling me. But God understands me the first time around what I mean, and what is the right answer.

However, I am moved by the following prayers from the past:

whatdidjesussay.com/teach-us-to-pray/
 
Telestia said:
When I pray, I pray to God, I avoid repetive prayers, I may need repetition when someone speaks to me before I understand what they are telling me. But God understands me the first time around what I mean, and what is the right answer.

However, I am moved by the following prayers from the past:

whatdidjesussay.com/teach-us-to-pray/
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Telestia,
Now, I don’t practice invocation of the saints, but if “God understands me the first time around what I mean” when you pray, is it a far stretch to believe that God understands a Catholic when they ask a saint to pray for them? Does God hear when I ask my fellow believers to pray for me, even if they don’t get around to doing it?

Jon
 
This is a funny conversation. For years I was under the same non Catholic assertions mentioned here. So, when I returned to the Catholic church I wondered about it myself. Now I find myself a staunch supporter of intercessory prayer from those in the presence of the Lord in heaven as well as on earth.

I asked one protestant this: “What do you think they are doing up there anyway, playing checkers?” I wasn’t being a smart mouth, I was trying to make a point light heartedly.

If Jesus is the CHIEF Intercessor, why wouldn’t He have the communion of saints surrounding Him engaged in that activity as well.

Just saying.
 
Oh, I have to share this one with you. About 20 years or so ago, I was so terribly ill. I couldn’t even pick up the phone to call my very best friend and prayer partner who was now on the otherside of the country to ask her to pray for me. SERIOUSLY! So, I asked the Lord to please ask her to pray for me. That very afternoon, she called me and asked if I was all right because she was feeling that something was very wrong and found herself praying for me. I don’t fully understand the dynamics of prayer but I do believe that there is something very important and real in it.
 
StillCatholic said:
Oh, I have to share this one with you. About 20 years or so ago, I was so terribly ill. I couldn’t even pick up the phone to call my very best friend and prayer partner who was now on the otherside of the country to ask her to pray for me. SERIOUSLY! So, I asked the Lord to please ask her to pray for me. That very afternoon, she called me and asked if I was all right because she was feeling that something was very wrong and found herself praying for me. I don’t fully understand the dynamics of prayer but I do believe that there is something very important and real in it.
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Prayer is a wonderful gift given by God!
 
Here’s the Lutheran position on the blessed virgin Mary:

"Lutheran Marian theology is derived from Martin Luther’s views of Jesus’ mother Mary. It was developed out of the deep Christian Marian devotion on which he was reared, and it was subsequently clarified as part of his mature Christocentric theology and piety

1] Lutherans hold Mary in high esteem. Luther dogmatically asserted what he considered firmly established biblical doctrines like the divine motherhood of Mary while adhering to pious opinions of her perpetual virginity and immaculate conception along with the caveat that all doctrine and piety should exalt and not diminish the person and work of Jesus Christ. The emphasis was always placed on Mary as merely a receiver of God’s love and favor.

2] His opposition to regarding Mary as a mediatrix of intercession or redemption was part of his greater and more extensive opposition to the belief that the merits of the saints could be added to those of Jesus Christ to save humanity"

Wikipedia.

I once stayed in a Lutheran monastery [St Augustine] in Michigan where the Angelus was rung/ sung daily.

Lutherans refer to the Blessed Virgin as Mother of God, Queen of Heaven and believe Mary is in her Son’s presence praying for the holy church.

Many churches are named in honor of St Mary, especially Lutheran parishes in Europe.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Here’s the Lutheran position on the blessed virgin Mary:

"Lutheran Marian theology is derived from Martin Luther’s views of Jesus’ mother Mary. It was developed out of the deep Christian Marian devotion on which he was reared, and it was subsequently clarified as part of his mature Christocentric theology and piety

1] Lutherans hold Mary in high esteem. Luther dogmatically asserted what he considered firmly established biblical doctrines like the divine motherhood of Mary while adhering to pious opinions of her perpetual virginity and immaculate conception along with the caveat that all doctrine and piety should exalt and not diminish the person and work of Jesus Christ. The emphasis was always placed on Mary as merely a receiver of God’s love and favor.

2] His opposition to regarding Mary as a mediatrix of intercession or redemption was part of his greater and more extensive opposition to the belief that the merits of the saints could be added to those of Jesus Christ to save humanity"

Wikipedia.

I once stayed in a Lutheran monastery [St Augustine] in Michigan where the Angelus was rung/ sung daily.

Lutherans refer to the Blessed Virgin as Mother of God, Queen of Heaven and believe Mary is in her Son’s presence praying for the holy church.

Many churches are named in honor of St Mary, especially Lutheran parishes in Europe.
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Not all Lutherans call Mary the Queen of Heaven and Mother of God.
 
A few months ago i was faced with a very difficult problem which had to be solved in a short notice…i tried to get a solution for the problem but things seemed to get worse instead so i decided to pray a novena to St Therese of lisieux.
On the 9th day of the novena my problem was solved unexpectedly and the very person who was making my problem worse called me on that day and offered the solution to my problem…
Intercession of saints helps…it works!🙂
 
sennincatholic said:
A few months ago i was faced with a very difficult problem which had to be solved in a short notice…i tried to get a solution for the problem but things seemed to get worse instead so i decided to pray a novena to St Therese of lisieux.
On the 9th day of the novena my problem was solved unexpectedly and the very person who was making my problem worse called me on that day and offered the solution to my problem…
Intercession of saints helps…it works!🙂
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👍 Praise God that we have those to pray for us!
 
Hoo(name removed by moderator)mie said:
Does your friend ever talk about Grandma in Heaven? I’m not trying to be snarky, it’s just odd that lots of folks think we’re a bit off our rocker for praying to Mary and the saints for intercession but think nothing of telling us that Grandma is looking down from Heaven looking after the family.
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The difference is in the prayer. We talk to and ask people to pray for us. This builds community. God’s word tells us to do this" by your love one to another all people will know you are my disciples". Praying for someone will bring people together. God says to pray to Him alone. In the old testament it says not to seek answer for the leaving from the dead. And in 1Tim 2:5 God says there is one God and one mediator between God and man.
 
Rich said:
The difference is in the prayer. We talk to and ask people to pray for us. This builds community. God’s word tells us to do this" by your love one to another all people will know you are my disciples". Praying for someone will bring people together. God says to pray to Him alone. In the old testament it says not to seek answer for the leaving from the dead. And in 1Tim 2:5 God says there is one God and one mediator between God and man.
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You just contradicted yourself 😉
 
Rich said:
The difference is in the prayer. We talk to and ask people to pray for us. This builds community. God’s word tells us to do this" by your love one to another all people will know you are my disciples". Praying for someone will bring people together. God says to pray to Him alone. In the old testament it says not to seek answer for the leaving from the dead. And in 1Tim 2:5 God says there is one God and one mediator between God and man.
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Hm…but why does God then tell Eliphaz to have Job pray for them here?

Job 42:
7 After the Lord had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.
8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.” 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite did what the Lord told them; and the Lord accepted Job’s prayer.

So is God contradicting Himself?
 
In my experience it’s been a belief that heaven is as separated from earth as earth is from heaven. They are doing their own thing with God and such, and aren’t preoccupied with what’s happening on earth, and can’t see or hear what’s going on. Eventually earth will be gone and we will either be in heaven or on the ‘new earth’ (depending on who you’re talking to) with God. When I was first looking into Catholicism I had to sort of ‘reset’ my view of heaven, as it was really simplistic and almost selfish (e.g. I’ll have my own big mansion, it’ll be bright all the time, I’ll see my grandparents, there won’t be pain/sadness/worry, etc.).
 
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