No. It is not an article of faith that binds the conscience, and is therefore adiaphora.
Jon
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Jon
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EvangelCatholic
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Lutheran Confessions on the blessed Virgin Mary:
**"On account of this personal union and communion of the natures, Mary, the most blessed Virgin, did not conceive a mere, ordinary human being, but a human being who is truly the Son of the most high God, as the angel testifies. He demonstrated his divine majesty even in his mother’s womb in that he was born of a virgin without violating her virginity. Therefore she is truly the mother of God and yet remained a virgin” (Solid Declaration, article VIII.24). **
Martin Luther
"Mother Mary, like us, was born in sin of sinful parents, but the Holy Spirit covered her, sanctified and purified her so that this child was born of flesh and blood, but not with sinful flesh and blood. The Holy Spirit permitted the blessed Virgin Mary to remain a true, natural human being of flesh and blood, just as we. However, he warded off sin from her flesh and blood so that she became the mother of a pure child, not poisoned by sin as we are. For in that moment when she conceived, she was a holy mother filled with the Holy Spirit and her fruit is a holy pure fruit, at once God and truly man, in one person."
**She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child. … Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God. **(Luther’s Works 21:326ff)
**But Luther also honored Mary and her “unique place in all of [humankind].” He insisted “the festivals of the Purification and Annunciation of Mary be continued, and for the time being her Assumption and Nativity.” He could even imagine her as a heavenly intercessor.
“O Blessed Virgin, Mother of God, what great comfort God has shown us in you, by so graciously regarding your unworthiness and low estate. This encourages us to believe that henceforth He will not despise us poor and lowly ones, but graciously regard us also, according to your example.” **
Through faith, Luther wrote, a person **“may boast of such treasure as that Mary is his real mother, Christ his brother, and God his father… By this token you sit assuredly in the Virgin Mary’s lap and are her dear child.” **
Book of Concord:
"We believe, teach, and confess that Mary conceived and bore not only a plain, ordinary, mere man but the veritable Son of God; for this reason she is rightly called, and truly is, the mother of God."
"That the Son became man in this manner, that He was conceived, without the cooperation of man, by the Holy Ghost, and was born of the pure, holy and always blessed Virgin Mary."
Lutheran Church Calendar of Holy Days"
The Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary [December 8]
The Falling Asleep of the Blessed Virgin Mary [August 15] or St Mary, Mother of God
The Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary [September 8]
The Annunciation of our Lord and the Purification of Blessed Mary [March 25]
The Visitation of the Blessed Virgin Mary[May 31]
A relatively new Lutheran [ELCA] parish in Texas is named Santa María de Guadalupe. In Europe many Lutheran churches are named Our Lady
Lutheran Confessions highly regard the holy Virgin Mary but in practice Lutherans are free to honor Mary, ask for her prayers and believe in her immaculate conception and assumption into heaven or not. It is not binding to our faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
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pablope
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Jon…i know that…
What I am asking is…your views…“should it” be made dogma, an article of faith among Lutherans?
Concerning the semper virgo, it seems so obvious in the Formula of Concord, quotedJon…i know that…
What I am asking is…your views…“should it” be made dogma, an article of faith among Lutherans?
EvangelCatholic, supported by the fact that virtually all Lutheran theologians believed it (Walther said it was beyond questioning). OTOH, Lutherans are reluctant to make dogma or doctrine out of something such as this.
My own sense is that Lutherans ought to believe it, as historically our confession has always taught it, as has the historic Church, though I am not convinced it ought to be dogmatic.
Jon
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EvangelCatholic
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Statues and artwork depicting the blessed Virgin are quite common in European Lutheran churches; the Scandinavian cathedrals have many images of Mary. I pray the rosary, walk the labyrinth though not often in my very busy life, alas.
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bzkoss236
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Where you are confused is in the word prayer. The word ‘pray’ means ‘to ask of’. It, in itself, is now associated with worship. The only time it is worship is when it is associated with God (or gods depending on the religion of the person praying). As we do not consider the Saints to be gods, it is not worship. It is simply us asking for their prayers, for their intercession.
And for the second part of your response, about Jesus being the only mediator. If Jesus was the single and sole mediator, we shouldn’t ask each other to pray for one another, because we are making ourselves mediators. So obviously, this idea isn’t that strict. It should be looked at more as Jesus is the sole mediator between God and all Men, meaning all man-kind. For any of our prayers to reach the Father, even those in heaven, it has to go through the Son. That doesn’t mean that our asking of each other to pray for us needs to be done through Jesus.
Though… if you think about it, if we are all a part of the Body of Christ, then even when we ask another (even in person) to pray for each other, we are in a way acting through the Body of Christ, and therefore Christ himself, so… Either way, Jesus is still the one mediator.
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pablope
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But Jon…taking this further…isn’t it because it has not been made dogmatic that accounts for the variety of Lutheran beliefs? There is sort of a free for all…and by extension…all protestant denoms follow this free for all in beliefs.
Don’t you see a benefit in making it dogmatic?
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EvangelCatholic
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The dogma is quite clear even though many Lutherans are surprised when reminded of our position on the Mother of God. It is the devotion that is left up to the individual. Some Lutherans believe in the vision of the blessed Virgin in Guadalupe; the Eucharistic prayer refers to Mary and Peter among the hosts of heaven. I think, in general, Lutherans do not demand exact explanations of what is a mystery, especially in the absence of biblical clarity. We know, for example, that Christ comes to us in physical form in the Mass yet we also resist finite attempts to pin down how this is possible. American Lutherans are remiss in honoring St Mary. The book entitled the “American Magnificat” by Maxwell Johnson addresses this issue.
I agree with EC above, that American Lutherans, often influenced by pietism, and to an extent other Protestant bodies, have been negligent in our honoring of the Blessed Virgin.
It is also a result, I believe, of poor catechesis, something I think Catholics here are familiar with.
Jon
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EvangelCatholic
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This is particularly true when traveling in “Lutheran” countries in Europe. Lutherans have no real connection to Protestants as identified on this forum. Lutherans don’t even consider themselves as ‘Protestant’.I agree with EC above, that American Lutherans, often influenced by pietism, and to an extent other Protestant bodies, have been negligent in our honoring of the Blessed Virgin.
It is also a result, I believe, of poor catechesis, something I think Catholics here are familiar with.
Jon
The Mass is celebrated as our apostolic faith guides us.
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aidanbradypop
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I have noticed that as well. I have a Lutheran friend in Holland. She looks at the American Lutherans as more Protestant and not really Lutheran.
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Abisko
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Interesting because my friends who are catholics from Europe when they visit us here in North America they tell me our Catholic masses and priests seem very protestant like.
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Gailgirl
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I don’t think I’m following the person’s example of Jesus meeting Moses and Elijah having anything to do with praying to the Saints departed. To be completely honest, I still struggle with all of this. I know we ask others to pray FOR us, to intercede, to lift us up. This is Scriptural. I don’t like praying TO anyone other than Trinity members. I don’t find examples in any New Testament verse that this is warranted, necessary, or approved. Certainly if it was approved, or beneficial, somewhere in the 27 books of the New Covenant, there would be an admonition to do so. I am faltering in this. I don’t pray the Rosary as I should, obviously.
Also, the cloud of witnesses mentioned in Heb 12:1 refer to the “examples” of faith those individuals in Chapter 11 that we are to emulate; not that they are hovering around us waiting for prayers.
I glad for this post. I finally can state my reservations and concerns. Jesus hears all my prayers, the praises, the requests; big and small. Isn’t he seated in the heavens, at the right hand of the Father, to do just this, as the book of Hebrews states.
I do not think ill of, or negatively have feelings for any of my Church brothers and sisters who practice praying to Saints. I just don’t think it necessary.
If someone wants to help my stubborness, I am open
Gail
Also, the cloud of witnesses mentioned in Heb 12:1 refer to the “examples” of faith those individuals in Chapter 11 that we are to emulate; not that they are hovering around us waiting for prayers.
I glad for this post. I finally can state my reservations and concerns. Jesus hears all my prayers, the praises, the requests; big and small. Isn’t he seated in the heavens, at the right hand of the Father, to do just this, as the book of Hebrews states.
I do not think ill of, or negatively have feelings for any of my Church brothers and sisters who practice praying to Saints. I just don’t think it necessary.
If someone wants to help my stubborness, I am open
Gail
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aidanbradypop
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I wouldn’t say they Mass and priest here are Protestant like. I would say that many are less traditional than Europe. Is that what they meant?
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Bigjim1951
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That is a good idea! As a Catholic we are all members of the communion of saints. Here in this life, in purgatory being cleansed and in heaven with God. All can and do pray for us as Christ asked His Father that we all should be one as He and the Father are one. In John 17 Jesus prays for all His disciples and even those not yet born so why wouldn’t all those in heaven pray for us?
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StillCatholic
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Dear Gail, I totally identify with your position. And the fact is…Jesus does NOT *need *to hear our prayers through the intercession of others. But, He does desire it. Paul encourages us to pray for one another. Have you ever wondered why? This is what I believe the Lord has revealed to me. Prayer changes things, above all, the person doing the praying. The intercessor is connecting intimately with the Lord. He loves that. It also demonstrates community. We are a community of believers, of saints, here and there. When we pray to saints in heaven, we are acknowledging that there is indeed a community of believers surrounding the throne of God. They represent His victory over sin and death.
The second thing that happens, once you get hold of the truth, believe it or not, God becomes bigger to you. It happened to me. I love the reference of the incense mentioned in the Book of Revelation stating that the incense going up before the throne of God was the prayers of the saints, (theirs and ours). I am finding more and more, that God is not a solitary being. He is a trinity, one God three persons but this serves to demonstrate to us that He does not like to work alone. He desires the company and companionship of all of us and desires that we share His love of everyone too.
Now, when I pray the Rosary I discover that I have meditated on the passion and life of my dearest love, Jesus. I have not been thinking of Mary at all. I teach my catechism students that when we pray the Rosary we are not PRAYING to her, we are praying WITH her. By the way, I have several different copies of SCRIPTURAL ROSARIES. Talk about powerful praying!
But, I hear your sincere desire to get to the heart of God in this matter and I am praying for you right now, with all the confidence in the world that He is eager to hear my request, that you will find Him and the truth as you seek Him with all your heart. That’s HIS promise, not mine.
Blessing to you
Bonnie PS: Above all! Please continue to keep Him first and foremost in your prayers and conversatons. You are right about that, He does hear you and enjoys your companionship.
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Telestia
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No. He most likely knows before you ask, and why you’re asking.
Yes.
Do you hear Him when He replies?
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Offdoodykcrn
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I have a direct line, so I just pray to God. I don’t have a problem with other people praying to whomever they want, but for myself - I find the most comfort with The Lord’s Prayer.
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PaulDupre
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Who says the saints are dead ? They are alive in Christ!
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