Why not ask Mary and the Saints for prayers?

[Lochias]

Mine is simply that we have scriptural warrant for asking one another to pray for us, but lack that example in scripture for asking the same of those who have died.

The problem one runs into with this line of thinking is that we then must do away with ALL things that Scripture doesn’t explicitly mention, such as our concept of the Trinity itself.

Also, this line of thinking ignores the fact that the Bible itself is A. The product of tradition, and was never intended to be the final and only authority of God’s Church, and B. written in the understanding that the reader realizes all of the history and context in which the Bible exists.

Jesus was a good, faithful Jew, and it was never once written that he condemned the extremely normal and common Jewish practice of praying to and for the dead.

 

[BA11]

Because they’re dead and can’t hear nor pray for you. Your family and friends can give up real prayers to God.

 

[Stephen_C]

Because they’re dead and can’t hear nor pray for you. Your family and friends can give up real prayers to God.

 

[BA11]

Does your friend ever talk about Grandma in Heaven? I’m not trying to be snarky, it’s just odd that lots of folks think we’re a bit off our rocker for praying to Mary and the saints for intercession but think nothing of telling us that Grandma is looking down from Heaven looking after the family.

Most people who say this dont believe it, its a comforting thing we tell kids and people who just suffered loss.

I dont believe any human in Heaven or Hell sees or cares about this world anymore. If people in Heaven could see or hear us they’d still be effected by it’s sinful nature. The very idea is flawed at its most basic level.

 

[aidanbradypop]

From Revelation 5:8 we see the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

Because they’re dead and can’t hear nor pray for you. Your family and friends can give up real prayers to God.

Most people who say this dont believe it, its a comforting thing we tell kids and people who just suffered loss.

I dont believe any human in Heaven or Hell sees or cares about this world anymore. If people in Heaven could see or hear us they’d still be effected by it’s sinful nature. The very idea is flawed at its most basic level.

I already addressed this

From Revelation 5:8 we see the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

 

[JustaServant]

Most people who say this dont believe it, its a comforting thing we tell kids and people who just suffered loss.

I dont believe any human in Heaven or Hell sees or cares about this world anymore. If people in Heaven could see or hear us they’d still be effected by it’s sinful nature. The very idea is flawed at its most basic level.

Applying for a job as a grief counselor?
What an incredibly arrogant and insensitive post.

 

[jrtrent]

Originally Posted by jrtrent
Mine is simply that we have scriptural warrant for asking one another to pray for us, but lack that example in scripture for asking the same of those who have died.

The problem one runs into with this line of thinking is that we then must do away with ALL things that Scripture doesn’t explicitly mention, such as our concept of the Trinity itself.

I think there is adequate scriptural support for recognizing God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost as having distinct personalities and all being divine. Whether the doctrine of the Trinity as set forth at Nicaea is perfectly adequate I can’t say, though I don’t dispute it.

On the other hand, I see no scriptural support for asking Mary and the saints to pray for us.

Also, this line of thinking ignores the fact that the Bible itself is A. The product of tradition, and was never intended to be the final and only authority of God’s Church,

I’d say that what you take as fact, Protestants would describe as erroneous opinion.

and B. written in the understanding that the reader realizes all of the history and context in which the Bible exists.

Jesus was a good, faithful Jew, and it was never once written that he condemned the extremely normal and common Jewish practice of praying to and for the dead.

I’m curious about this. I haven’t been able to find anything definitive on the topic; do you know of sources I could look at? One item I found makes it seem that praying to the dead anyway is a disputed and perhaps more recent (more recent, that is, than Christ’s time) phenomenon.

The Midrash records for us that when Moshe sent the twelve spies on their mission to bring back intelligence on the state of the Canaanites in the Land of Israel, Calev went to Chevron to the Tomb of the Patriarchs and prayed there for their help in making his mission successful. The Talmud records for us that Yirmiyahu the prophet also visited the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Chevron to beg them to somehow prevent the impending destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem. Nevertheless, there is a biblical injunction “not to turn to the dead [for help.]” Praying to the dead was seen in the Torah as being an idolatrous practice. There has always been a tension in the Jewish world regarding praying at graves. Jewish law books stress that one should never pray to the dead but rather one should gain inspiration by recalling their righteousness and thereby pray to the Lord more intensely and effectively. [emphasis added] rabbiwein.com/blog/graves-and-monuments-674.html

 

[concretecamper]

the op asked about praying to the saints and the discussion turned to praying to the dead which is not anywhere close to the same discussion. I would hasten to add that the saints are not dead people…in fact they are more alive than us here on earth. why do you think the protestant bible excludes Maccabees?

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[jrtrent]

the op asked about praying to the saints and the discussion turned to praying to the dead which is not anywhere close to the same discussion. I would hasten to add that the saints are not dead people…in fact they are more alive than us here on earth.

The clear implication of the OP was that we’re talking about praying to people who have died. Taking exception to referring to them as “the dead” seems an unnecessary quibble. Reminds me of the great concern some professors had when I got my special education endorsement that we never refer to “disabled children” but instead call them “children with disabilities.”

 

[Attejohannes]

Revealation 5:8. What part of the citation indicates that the incense in the golden bowls of the elders signifies the prayers of B]dead** saints?**

 

[concretecamper]

haha…clear implication? I would rather take the words of the op’s question rather than imply what was meant. too much implying going on especially about scripture.

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[aidanbradypop]

Revealation 5:8. What part of the citation indicates that the incense in the golden bowls of the elders signifies the prayers of B]dead**** saints?

scripturecatholic.com/saints.html#saints-II

catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/praying-to-dead-folks

newadvent.org/cathen/04171a.htm

catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints

A Few links for ya. Look at those when ya have time and then let me know what you think either here or in a PM

 

[aidanbradypop]

LOL

To get us back on track…

I asked why one cannot pray to Mary and the Saints and the answer she gave me was because they are dead and it goes agaisnt Scripture.

There ya go lol

 

[Symphorian]

The New Testament doctrine of the Communion of the Saints is not concerned with any communication between the living and the departed but with the redemption of the human race. The faithful departed are in Christ, as as we here on earth. The implications of this were not worked out by the Apostolic writers, partly because there were as yet few Christians who had died and partly because the Parousia was expected as imminent. The primary concern of the NT in this connexion is to insist on the reality of a fellowship in Christ which living and departed share. This fellowship is essentially a fellowship in prayer to God.

The official formularies of the of the Church of England do not contain any direct petitions to the Saints. We cannot be certain that the departed Saints hear our prayers – equally we cannot be certain that they cannot hear our prayers either. We do not condemn direct prayer to the Saints as a private devotion provided it is to ask for their prayers for ourselves or others but in our official formularies for public worship we err on the side of caution and do not make make direct petitions.

The following prayer is quite typical of the Anglican view, whilst recognizing the Communion of Saints it does not contain direct petitions:

O God, the King of Saints,
we praise and magnify thy holy Name
for all thy servants who have finished their course
in thy faith and fear:
for the Blessed Virgin Mary;
for the holy Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, and Martyrs;
and for all other thy righteous servants;
and we beseech thee that, encouraged by their example,
strengthened by their fellowship,
and aided by their prayers,
we may attain unto everlasting life;
through the merits of thy Son Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

 

[jrtrent]

A Few links for ya. Look at those when ya have time and then let me know what you think either here or in a PM

The Catholic Answers tract and other links do not make a compelling case that the passage in Revelation 5, or the other passages they brought up, indicates that living Christians were asking Saints who had died to pray for them. You know, if there was a clear indication in the Bible that this is something that should be done, we sola scriptura folks would probably be doing it.

6 Then I saw, in the midst, where the throne was, amid the four figures and the elders, a Lamb standing upright, yet slain (as I thought) in sacrifice. He had seven horns, and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God, that go out to do his bidding everywhere on earth. 7 He now came, and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne, 8 and when he disclosed it,[a] the four living figures and the twenty-four elders fell down in the Lamb’s presence. Each bore a harp, and they had golden bowls full of incense, the prayers of the saints. 9 And now it was a new hymn they sang, Thou, Lord, art worthy to take up the book and break the seals that are on it. Thou wast slain in sacrifice; out of every tribe, every language, every people, every nation thou hast ransomed us with thy blood and given us to God.** 10 Thou hast made us a royal race of priests, to serve God; we shall reign as kings over the earth.**

 

[Millie123]

In Matthew 22:36-40 when Christ was asked
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandment."

I think that as Christians praying for each other is an act of love and charity for our neighbor. It also increases our own spiritual life and is a loving act and devotion to God. I think that the main problem that I have with protestant reasoning regarding saintly intercession is that to me it appears they are promoting a spiritual laziness in heaven. While on earth these people are prayer warriors and are concerned with the spiritual and physical welfare of their neighbors…but all of a sudden if that same soul enters heaven then they think that their prayer life ends, and their neighborly love ceases. To me that is equal to spiritual laziness, when we enter heaven their is absolutely no logical reason at all that our prayer life ends especially since we will be living in the presence of God. Not praying for each other either on earth or in heaven goes against God’s love and charity, and begets selfishness and laziness.

 

[pablope]

Because they’re dead and can’t hear nor pray for you. Your family and friends can give up real prayers to God.

Let me ask…those in heaven…do you believe they are alive…or dead?

 

[kimg901]

Most people who say this dont believe it, its a comforting thing we tell kids and people who just suffered loss.

I dont believe any human in Heaven or Hell sees or cares about this world anymore. If people in Heaven could see or hear us they’d still be effected by it’s sinful nature. The very idea is flawed at its most basic level.

So Jesus dont care anymore then huh? He was human was He not? So hearing ones pray is sinful? Do you have some evidence that shows they no longer care?

 

[pablope]

Mine is simply that we have scriptural warrant for asking one another to pray for us, but lack that example in scripture for asking the same of those who have died. The Anglican church to which I belong has a Homily on Prayer that addresses the issue:

]

Those in heaven…I assume you believe they are alive, correct?

If they are alive, then what do they do all the time? How about angels, do you think angels pray for those here on earth?

Matthew 22:30

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels[a] in heaven.

Rev 8:

3 Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.

REv 5…8 When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

 

[pablope]

Mine is simply that we have scriptural warrant for asking one another to pray for us, but lack that example in scripture for asking the same of those who have died. The Anglican church to which I belong has a Homily on Prayer that addresses the issue:

Just another question…if we can pray for one another…as Christ commanded…why can’t those in heaven not pray for us too?