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EIF5A
Guest
If the Holy Spirit intercedes for us, why do we need to ask saints, since the Holy Spirit is a Person of the Triune God and greater than the saints?
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joe370
Guest
Great response!!! :yup:
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joe370
Guest
We are all connected via the Holy Spirit. Those in heaven surely cannot hear our prayers without God making it possible - yes, no maybe? When I ask my my aunt or someone else to pray for someone, this is the logical way in which they can hear and respond to my prayer; seems reasonable. I have had real dry spells when it comes to prayer, and perhaps this is where the following passage comes into play:
And the Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness. For example, we don’t know what God wants us to pray for. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words. Romans 8
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berk60
Guest
1 John 5:14–15
" And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him."
We have the request** that we have asked Him.**
" And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him."
We have the request** that we have asked Him.**
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pablope
Guest
I will try to answer with a question:
From Job 42:
After the Lord had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has. 8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.” 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite did what the Lord told them; and the Lord accepted Job’s prayer.
From the passage above, why does God not just forgive Eliphaz? Why does God make them go through Job?
What was God’s point telling Eliphaz and his friends to go through Job?
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pablope
Guest
But his passage does not say how to approach God with our requests, prayers…so how are we to approach the throne of God?
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Gailgirl
Guest
I find this thread on praying to Mary/Saints extremely interesting. I mentioned before how I struggle with the entire idea of praying to a departed Saint or Mary. I struggle because prayer is a form of worship. Intercessory prayer, lifting up a fellow believer or praying for someone else is not praying TO someone who has passed away. I am petitioning God, who through my Savior has separated the “veil” so I may do so. I realize many of my brothers/sisters do not have a problem with this, but to me it is an item that I cannot find a Scriptural basis for. Thanks to those who lovingly try to help, but the Revelation verses do not solve the issue.
Also, although I love Mary, indeed blessed among women, but where is she exalted and given the status in Acts and the other New Testament epistles that many of you are writing about? To quote an early Church saint and his views on Mary does little to convince me that she is to be prayed to and given the exaltation that many of you are confidently advocating. In fact, when the woman in Luke 11 cried out to my Lord, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts that nursed You,” Jesus did not confirm that Mary was deserving of any special adoration. This would have been a good time to add to the woman’s declaration, or even agree with it. But no, Jesus Himself said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who the word of God, and observe it.”
God bless you all.
Gailgirl
Also, although I love Mary, indeed blessed among women, but where is she exalted and given the status in Acts and the other New Testament epistles that many of you are writing about? To quote an early Church saint and his views on Mary does little to convince me that she is to be prayed to and given the exaltation that many of you are confidently advocating. In fact, when the woman in Luke 11 cried out to my Lord, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts that nursed You,” Jesus did not confirm that Mary was deserving of any special adoration. This would have been a good time to add to the woman’s declaration, or even agree with it. But no, Jesus Himself said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who the word of God, and observe it.”
God bless you all.
Gailgirl
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aidanbradypop
Guest
Says who? If you ask me to pray for you, I will ask God to bless you. How is that any different than asking the Mother of God to pray for me or you? If you ask me to pray for you, then you are bypassing Christ and going through me. How is that any different than asking someone who is alive more then we are on earth? Notice that Christ never says that someone is dead when they depart this world. The opposite is actually stated. They are alive in Christ.
I understand many have an issue with this. Many converts were taught that we should only “pray” to God and God alone. I find it interesting how Protestants and even Catholics such as yourself with have prayers groups and ask a fellow sinner for prayers, yet ignore the woman who brought Christ into the world. As I stated above, if we should only go straight to God, we need not to ask one another for prayers because we then go through that person.
I can respect that, but when one deems their opinion is greater than the Church Fathers and those who gave their life for the faith then one is bound to come up with many different beliefs.
Often our opinions will become clouded. 
That is why we must trust in the Church Christ established on earth. When we start to believe “we” know best, we often fall into “our” church rather than Christ’s Church.Did he rebuke her?
God’s blessings with you as well!
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Lochias
Guest
If you follow this logic through to its natural end, you come to the question:
"Why should ***I ***pray for you?
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Lochias
Guest
Then that means that you cannot ever ask anyone else to pray for you, for that would be showing a lack of confidence in God.
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berk60
Guest
We are to come boldly to the throne of grace all by our self’s. You have God’s word before you but yet you refuse to acknowledge it as truth. If we don’t have a love for the truth we will be taken over by a delusion so that in the end times we will not be able to distinguish the truth. God has warn us of this so I ask you to pray directly to God and ask Him to give you a teachable spirit.
"Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need." Hebrew 4:14-16
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berk60
Guest
We ask among the living to join us in prayer as was demonstrated by the early church.
" Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day’s journey. And when they had entered, they went up into the upper room where they were staying: Peter, James, John, and Andrew; Philip and Thomas; Bartholomew and Matthew; James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot; and Judas the son of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers. Act 1:12-14
These were Jesus disciples, yes even his mother and they all prayed together as living beings to God.
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Lochias
Guest
Please show us exactly where the Bible says that the souls in Heaven are “dead”. Also, please show us exactly why it was ok to remove books such as Maccabees from the Bible that talk about praying to the souls of the deceased.
EDIT: My original point also stands. You cannot say on one hand “You can ask people to pray for you!” but then say on the other “You have to approach God alone!”
Which is it? It cannot logically be both.
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berk60
Guest
When I reference the dead as it is referenced in the OP I mean these people have physically died. No one every spiritually dies, ever.
What does Maccabees have to do with praying to the souls of the deceased. It is about praying for the dead souls of the deceased.
It’s you choice to who you want to pray to whether it’s Mary or the other hundreds of other patron saints. I choice to pray to only God because as the High Priest we are directed in the New Testament to do so. Jesus died and now we have the new covenant in Him that He is are one and only mediator to God.
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Jeanne1184
Guest
In the NT, we have the Living God (to be clear, the Father of Christ), the Resurrected Christ and the Living Holy Spirit who is with us/in us today.
1 Cor 12:3 - "…no one know can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.” No one comes to the Father but through Christ - no one can truly know the truth of Christ except by the Holy Spirit. Faith (direct personal experience of the Holy Spirit) vs. belief.
Why would we pray to the dead? Are God (Christ’s Father, to be clear; not the ruler of this world), Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit insufficient? The dead obviously failed to do something necessary in order to ‘die while still living in the body’ - which the NT says is the Goal.
I thought Maccabees was praying for the dead, not to the dead. Perhaps prayers are useful to the mission of Christ because until Judgment, there is still room to work and still the possibility of souls being saved from eternal death after physical death. Many things that became evil were once useful … perhaps seances were once used to hear the confessions of the dead who had ‘reconsidered’. Sounds radical, I know; however, stranger things have turned out to be Truth.
I pray for Hitler and Vlad the Impaler (the documentary on him was quite impressive), for instance. I pray for Jeffry Dalmer, Aileen Wuornos, Andrea Yates, and others. My object is to find a person to associate with each manifested hate of the heart that I didn’t live out. Took a while for Holy Spirit to get through to me about the underlying issues surrounding vicarous viewing in my former steady diet of Law & Order, Criminal Minds, etc. Interesting insights, for sure.
I once read a book called “I Am That”. The title turned into a spiritual ‘mind tool’. Whenever I hear news of hate spilling out, I say “I Am That”. I am the recent marathon bombers - but for the Healing Forgiveness of the Holy Spirit, the potential was surely in me (and unhealed places still exist). I have been shown enough of the depravity of my heart that I know that I am no different than someone who has taken any evil thought into action - given the right set of circumstances.
Catholic schooling and the fear of public shaming were enough instill self-discipline. That is, self-discipline enough to be moral but that is not the same as going for Holiness. Absolutely, I did enough ‘legal’ dastardly deeds from spiritual deficiency. Had I died before discovering the Path Christ made for us, my heart weighed against the Feather of Truth would have dropped like the stone it was.
I had always thought myself a ‘good person’ despite a ‘few’ (heh) faults. Getting ‘right-sized’ by the Holy Spirit is quite the adventure. For instance, I didn’t know that the bitter sarcasm I took so much pride to perfect for 44 yrs. was but a ‘release valve’ for volcanic rage seething beneath. I am not unique.
Truth be told, I pray for the Devil(s). I picture meeting them on the other side and extending a ‘hand’ inviting them back to the Light - that the Holy Spirit is for ALL of us. Christ certainly entreats a particular female entity back into The Fold in the Bible. I simply cannot imagine attaining Heaven, and enjoying it fully, while knowing any others were burning for eternity somewhere. Yuck.
I wonder if the worship of saints (prayer is worship) came from paganism that the Church incorporated into the Church in the beginning in order to ‘herd cats’. Like the Santa Maria sopra Minerva Church in Italy. (Minerva being the Roman goddess for the Greek Athena; Maria/Mary connected to Minerva originally rather than the mother of Christ?) I got curious one day about the many pagan statues the Church maintains. Yet we are no longer taught Latin nor Greek to make sense of it. Maybe the transition of Minerva to Mary happened so long ago that the purpose behind the temporary tool to woo the pagans just got lost.
I also think there could be an element of some people feeling so unworthy of God, Christ or the Holy Spirit for those of us who had ‘sputtering Lamps’ - that praying for intercession from a saint is the highest our eyes could lift. Fortunately, the Holy Spirit reads the heart and makes the appropriate adjustments for us whenever necessary. Not to worry.
During the years when I went agnostic, the saddest part was not having anyone to thank when something truly amazing did happen. The only God I could see operating in the world during those years was the Devil. I wasn’t about to thank him/her and get off the hook I’d placed. I was quite lost, no doubt. However, thanks be to The Father, His son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, I’ve been Found. Another wretch saved. Whatta Heavenly deal!
1 Cor 12:3 - "…no one know can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.” No one comes to the Father but through Christ - no one can truly know the truth of Christ except by the Holy Spirit. Faith (direct personal experience of the Holy Spirit) vs. belief.
Why would we pray to the dead? Are God (Christ’s Father, to be clear; not the ruler of this world), Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit insufficient? The dead obviously failed to do something necessary in order to ‘die while still living in the body’ - which the NT says is the Goal.
I thought Maccabees was praying for the dead, not to the dead. Perhaps prayers are useful to the mission of Christ because until Judgment, there is still room to work and still the possibility of souls being saved from eternal death after physical death. Many things that became evil were once useful … perhaps seances were once used to hear the confessions of the dead who had ‘reconsidered’. Sounds radical, I know; however, stranger things have turned out to be Truth.
I pray for Hitler and Vlad the Impaler (the documentary on him was quite impressive), for instance. I pray for Jeffry Dalmer, Aileen Wuornos, Andrea Yates, and others. My object is to find a person to associate with each manifested hate of the heart that I didn’t live out. Took a while for Holy Spirit to get through to me about the underlying issues surrounding vicarous viewing in my former steady diet of Law & Order, Criminal Minds, etc. Interesting insights, for sure.
I once read a book called “I Am That”. The title turned into a spiritual ‘mind tool’. Whenever I hear news of hate spilling out, I say “I Am That”. I am the recent marathon bombers - but for the Healing Forgiveness of the Holy Spirit, the potential was surely in me (and unhealed places still exist). I have been shown enough of the depravity of my heart that I know that I am no different than someone who has taken any evil thought into action - given the right set of circumstances.
Catholic schooling and the fear of public shaming were enough instill self-discipline. That is, self-discipline enough to be moral but that is not the same as going for Holiness. Absolutely, I did enough ‘legal’ dastardly deeds from spiritual deficiency. Had I died before discovering the Path Christ made for us, my heart weighed against the Feather of Truth would have dropped like the stone it was.
I had always thought myself a ‘good person’ despite a ‘few’ (heh) faults. Getting ‘right-sized’ by the Holy Spirit is quite the adventure. For instance, I didn’t know that the bitter sarcasm I took so much pride to perfect for 44 yrs. was but a ‘release valve’ for volcanic rage seething beneath. I am not unique.
Truth be told, I pray for the Devil(s). I picture meeting them on the other side and extending a ‘hand’ inviting them back to the Light - that the Holy Spirit is for ALL of us. Christ certainly entreats a particular female entity back into The Fold in the Bible. I simply cannot imagine attaining Heaven, and enjoying it fully, while knowing any others were burning for eternity somewhere. Yuck.
I wonder if the worship of saints (prayer is worship) came from paganism that the Church incorporated into the Church in the beginning in order to ‘herd cats’. Like the Santa Maria sopra Minerva Church in Italy. (Minerva being the Roman goddess for the Greek Athena; Maria/Mary connected to Minerva originally rather than the mother of Christ?) I got curious one day about the many pagan statues the Church maintains. Yet we are no longer taught Latin nor Greek to make sense of it. Maybe the transition of Minerva to Mary happened so long ago that the purpose behind the temporary tool to woo the pagans just got lost.
I also think there could be an element of some people feeling so unworthy of God, Christ or the Holy Spirit for those of us who had ‘sputtering Lamps’ - that praying for intercession from a saint is the highest our eyes could lift. Fortunately, the Holy Spirit reads the heart and makes the appropriate adjustments for us whenever necessary. Not to worry.
During the years when I went agnostic, the saddest part was not having anyone to thank when something truly amazing did happen. The only God I could see operating in the world during those years was the Devil. I wasn’t about to thank him/her and get off the hook I’d placed. I was quite lost, no doubt. However, thanks be to The Father, His son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, I’ve been Found. Another wretch saved. Whatta Heavenly deal!
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aidanbradypop
Guest
:nope:
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Lochias
Guest
Agreed.
It helps to set the precedent for you (aside from all the other references in the OT and NT) that those who have died do still hear our prayers.
Gotcha. So, as you say, no-one else can ever pray for you.
J
Jeanne1184
Guest
“The Mystical Vision of the Virgin Mother is not intended for merely passive enjoyment but has been said to carry a transforming power, as those who have had the privilege of beholding The Queen of Heaven have dedicated their lives to Her service.”
No one doubts that the Archons have power - even the power to ‘appear’. But worshipping (praying to) the ‘Queen of Heaven’ is ill-advised for many of us.
gotquestions.org/Queen-of-Heaven.html
In the article, I disagree with the part where Catholicism is declared a ‘false religion’ - as opposed to all the ‘true’ religions out there? Obviously, none of the organized religions have everything functioning in perfect accord with Christ’s standards - even the early churches in the Bible had difficulty. If any of them came too close today, squads would be out crushing them. Same ole, same ole.
What keeps me Catholic? Confession, Confession, Confession. I have found no other religion that places the emphasis on Confession like the Catholic Church. Confession is the path to making conscious contact with the Holy Spirit if done with painstaking awareness. Forgiveness comes from Within, when we do it correctly - and is an experience, not a belief.
Per the Bible and my experience, priests are not required for Confession to effect Grace, but they are often quite helpful for many reasons. Had there been a female ‘alternate’ to hear my initial dips into sexual sin, maybe I wouldn’t have fallen quite so far. There is something emphatically spiritually unhealthy for the woman and priest about confessing female sexual sin (and sexual marital problems) with a celibate man of God - it just ain’t right. If Pope Francis makes any changes, I hope it is to include nuns or proven non-gossipers (trained properly) as lay confessors for women.
If lay females can now distribute Communion, why not hear confessions? Of course, let them know that there is a special place in hell for those who divulge what is said in Confession in gossip. I’m sure that’s in the Bible somewhere.
One of my concerns with AA is that Bill W. didn’t find a way to place sufficient emphasis on the Sanctity of Step 5.
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StillCatholic
Guest
It has to do with humility and obedience. We are told to intercede for one another. Why? Why does God need us to intercede for one another? He knows what we need and before we ask. I believe that it is meant to identify that there is a community of believers, here and there. We are glorifying God when we acknowledge the fact that He has won us for Himself and we are all His family.
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StillCatholic
Guest
A priest is necessary to hear confession for the purpose of granting absolution. It was a right and responsibility given the Apostles and handed on down by the laying on of hands, what we call today, ordination. Jesus granted them the power…what sins you forgive are forgiven, what sins you retain are retained.
As for females confessing sexual sins…details are never acceptable. Not even for men. When someone has to confess adultery, simply confess adultery. Period. It is humbling, but it is not dirty. One could also simply state marital infidelity, unfaithfulness, etc.
There is no place in the priesthood for women. As for assisting in Holy Communion, there is no original mandate for that being priests/men only. The consecration of the Eucharist is only done through the priest. He in turn can delegate the distribution to those the bishop has commissioned.
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