Why not ask Mary and the Saints for prayers?

[youknow]

When you say Rome, you are referring to the Catholic Church. OK. Of course you are right to say that the CC has never taught worship of Mary.

Be careful to obey all these regulations I am giving you, so that it may always go well with you and your children after you, because you will be doing what is good and right in the eyes of the LORD your God.

[N
Deu 12:29 The LORD your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land,

Deu 12:30 and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, "How do these nations serve their gods?

We will do the same."

[
Deu 12:31 You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates.

They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.

Deu 12:32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it. [fn]

Eze 22:26 Her priests do violence to my law and profane my holy things; they do not distinguish between the holy and the common;

they teach that there is no difference between the unclean and the clean;

and they shut their eyes to the keeping of my Sabbaths,

so that I am profaned among them.

 

[StillCatholic]

:nope:

I once thought the same thing about talking to the devil. I felt so sorry for him and was so thrilled to know how beneficent our God is. I truly believed that if I could convince the devil to just humble himself and ask God for forgiveness it would be granted to him. I was overcome with a heavy sort of darkness that freaked me out and I stopped that immediately. I understood the Lord warning me to NOT GO THERE. So, I have never done that again.

In the meantime, I got hold of a terrific book called, The Angels by Fr. Pascale Parente. It is a book on the subject of Angels as taught by the Catholic church. It is excellent. If you can ever get a hold of that book…Amazon sells it for $6.99…it is a really good read.

He explains why the devil is not a candidate for redemption.

 

[pablope]

In

I wonder if the worship of saints (prayer is worship) came from paganism that the Church incorporated into the Church in the beginning in order to ‘herd cats’. Like the Santa Maria sopra Minerva Church in Italy. (Minerva being the Roman goddess for the Greek Athena; Maria/Mary connected to Minerva originally rather than the mother of Christ?) I got curious one day about the many pagan statues the Church maintains. Yet we are no longer taught Latin nor Greek to make sense of it. Maybe the transition of Minerva to Mary happened so long ago that the purpose behind the temporary tool to woo the pagans just got lost.

!

Let me clear some of your misconceptions you have.

Pray means to ask, to plead…it does not mean worship. It only came to mean worship for protestants who threw out their catholic roots…which worship was via the Mass. When they disregarded the Mass, all they had left was prayer…which then the word pray was associated with worship…but if you look at the original meaning of pray…it does not mean to worship…and this meaning is carried to this day by Catholics.

Not on this part of your post…I wonder if the worship of saints (prayer is worship) came from paganism that the Church incorporated into the Church in the beginning in order to ‘herd cats’.

On the contrary…and in fact…it was in fact pagans in the early days of Christianity who believed and had qualm as you do:

calledtocommunion.com/201…ption-of-mary/

The first real blow to this interpretation came when I read Peter Brown’s book, The Cult of Saints: Its Rise and Function in Latin Christianity.

Brown challenged my view that the place of saints and relics in the church was a mere holdover from paganism, and that the practice was somehow peripheral to true Christianity. Instead, Brown painted a picture of ancient Christianity and paganism in which relics were indispensable to the former, and repulsive to the latter. Far from a holdover from paganism, the place of relics in the Church appeared as something intensely Jewish, Hebraic, and Old Testament. Pagans, like Julian-the-Apostate, found the practice revolting and legislated against it. (Paganism, with its notions of ritual purity, had strictly delimited the realm of divine worship and neatly separated it from the realm of corpses and the dead.)

Peter Brown:

On this point, the rise of Christianity in the pagan world was met by deep religious anger. We can chart the rise to prominence of the Christian church most faithfully by listening to pagan reactions to the cult of martyrs. For the progress of this cult spelled out for the pagans a slow and horrid crumbling of ancient barriers.1

 

[Isaiah45_9]

When I reference the dead as it is referenced in the OP I mean these people have physically died. No one every spiritually dies, ever.
What does Maccabees have to do with praying to the souls of the deceased. It is about praying for the dead souls of the deceased.
It’s you choice to who you want to pray to whether it’s Mary or the other hundreds of other patron saints. I choice to pray to only God because as the High Priest we are directed in the New Testament to do so. Jesus died and now we have the new covenant in Him that He is are one and only mediator to God.

So you don’t ask anyone to pray for you and you don’t pray for anyone else since they can only pray to Christ and only for themselves?

Colossians 1:3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,

Colossians 1:9 And so, from the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,

James 5:13 Is any one among you suffering? Let him pray. Is any cheerful? Let him sing praise. 14 Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

Ephesians 6:18 Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, 19 and also for me, that utterance may be given me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel,

1 Timothy 2:1 *First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. 3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
*
Matthew 5:43 *“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; *

1 Thessalonians 5:25 Brethren, pray for us.

Where does it say in the Bible that we don’t ask for intercessory prayers from our brothers in the flesh and those in the spirit?

 

[EIF5A]

I’m still a bit iffy about asking the Virgin Mary to “Save us”…I mean, she’s not our savior, right? Yes, I know, in context, it’s about asking Christ to save us in the end, but the wording is misleading just by itself.

 

[pablope]

I’m still a bit iffy about asking the Virgin Mary to “Save us”…I mean, she’s not our savior, right? Yes, I know, in context, it’s about asking Christ to save us in the end, but the wording is misleading just by itself.

It has to do you how you were brought or taught in the faith tradition you were raised.

When we catholics say…'save us"…we do not mean Mary has the power to save us…it means, in our hearts…to have her pray for our salvation.

It is what is in the heart.

The Hail Mary sums it up:

Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of death.

Or this part of the Rosary…V. Pray for us, O holy Mother of God. R. That we may become worthy of the promises of Christ.

 

[Jeanne1184]

Pray means to ask, to plead…it does not mean worship. It only came to mean worship for protestants who threw out their catholic roots…which worship was via the Mass. When they disregarded the Mass, all they had left was prayer…which then the word pray was associated with worship…but if you look at the original meaning of pray…it does not mean to worship…and this meaning is carried to this day by Catholics.

Not on this part of your post…I wonder if the worship of saints (prayer is worship) came from paganism that the Church incorporated into the Church in the beginning in order to ‘herd cats’.

On the contrary…and in fact…it was in fact pagans in the early days of Christianity who believed and had qualm as you do:

calledtocommunion.com/201…ption-of-mary/

The first real blow to this interpretation came when I read Peter Brown’s book, The Cult of Saints: Its Rise and Function in Latin Christianity.

Brown challenged my view that the place of saints and relics in the church was a mere holdover from paganism, and that the practice was somehow peripheral to true Christianity. Instead, Brown painted a picture of ancient Christianity and paganism in which relics were indispensable to the former, and repulsive to the latter. Far from a holdover from paganism, the place of relics in the Church appeared as something intensely Jewish, Hebraic, and Old Testament. Pagans, like Julian-the-Apostate, found the practice revolting and legislated against it. (Paganism, with its notions of ritual purity, had strictly delimited the realm of divine worship and neatly separated it from the realm of corpses and the dead.)

Peter Brown:

On this point, the rise of Christianity in the pagan world was met by deep religious anger. We can chart the rise to prominence of the Christian church most faithfully by listening to pagan reactions to the cult of martyrs. For the progress of this cult spelled out for the pagans a slow and horrid crumbling of ancient barriers.1

I stand corrected in the use of the word ‘pagan’ per the research. However, long has it been a general practice to refer to ‘pagan gods’ when speaking of those statues/pictures of the Egyptian/Babylonian/Greek and Roman gods. ‘Polytheistic gods’ is likely more accurate, though it sounds redundant.

So, the vast quantity of statues of gods from polytheistic religions that abound in the Vatican areas are not from pagan roots. I’ve often wondered what Christ would think of the Church’s ‘art appreciation’ aspect.

Of course, I’ve also pondered (extensively) why a crucified Christ is the center of attention rather than the Risen Christ with His arms outstretched inviting us in, with His right hand offering us the Gift of the Father in the form of a dove, the Holy Spirit. The Cross, of course, in the near background. Maybe someday.

 

[berk60]

So you don’t ask anyone to pray for you and you don’t pray for anyone else since they can only pray to Christ and only for themselves?

Colossians 1:3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,

Colossians 1:9 And so, from the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,

James 5:13 Is any one among you suffering? Let him pray. Is any cheerful? Let him sing praise. 14 Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.
I never said that we don’t pray for each other among the living. Praying for one another is certainly biblical. Praying to the dead for intercession is something that the bible in a general sence does not condone.
Ephesians 6:18 Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, 19 and also for me, that utterance may be given me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel,

1 Timothy 2:1 *First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. 3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
*
Matthew 5:43 *“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; *

1 Thessalonians 5:25 Brethren, pray for us.

Where does it say in the Bible that we don’t ask for intercessory prayers from our brothers in the flesh and those in the spirit?

The bible certainly does condone praying for one another in the living but it doesn’t condone praying to the dead for intersecession. Look how things went when Saul summond up the dead prophet Samuel.

 

[EIF5A]

The bible certainly does condone praying for one another in the living but it doesn’t condone praying to the dead for intersecession. Look how things went when Saul summond up the dead prophet Samuel.

I share your reservation, but to be fair, didn’t Saul consult a witch?

On a related note, was the real prophet Samuel actually summoned from the realm of the non-living?

 

[pablope]

I stand corrected in the use of the word ‘pagan’ per the research. However, long has it been a general practice to refer to ‘pagan gods’ when speaking of those statues/pictures of the Egyptian/Babylonian/Greek and Roman gods. ‘Polytheistic gods’ is likely more accurate, though it sounds redundant.

So, the vast quantity of statues of gods from polytheistic religions that abound in the Vatican areas are not from pagan roots. I’ve often wondered what Christ would think of the Church’s ‘art appreciation’ aspect.

 

[pablope]

I share your reservation, but to be fair, didn’t Saul consult a witch?

On a related note, was the real prophet Samuel actually summoned from the realm of the non-living?

Several of us here have pointed out Berk60’s mistake in equating the communion of saints with the conjuring of the dead…which is necromancy. Which is what Saul did.

Berk60 has been stubborn in sticking to what he believes…despite our corrections.

lettersonorthodoxy.wordpress.com/2011/12/20/intercession-of-the-saints/

Isn’t prayer to the saints necromancy, and forbidden in the Old Testament?

No, it isn’t necromancy. This is an extremely common objection to the intercession of the saints, and one that I find uncharitable and demonstrating an almost intentional obtuseness. Necromancy is an occult practice, practiced by a witch or sorcerer, for the purpose of divination or uncovering hidden knowledge. Literally the word necromancy means “divination by use of a dead body” in the Greek. That’s not even close to asking a departed saint of God to pray for you.

Who are the saints?
It is certainly correct to say that all Christians are saints. The saints are the holy ones of God, called out for a new kingdom. The term got overloaded by the Church over time to specifically refer to individuals of outstanding piety, usually martyrs early on, but without losing the initial, more general meaning. Certainly personal holiness is something that increases over time in a Christian (hopefully), and isn’t an automatic. You can see how the saints in heaven are seen as being perfected in Hebrew 12:22-23:

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect

A person specifically called a saint then is a person who has attained that righteousness.

Let’s look at three Old Testament passages commonly cited in connection with this. First, Leviticus 20:27:
27 ‘Now a man or a woman who is a medium or a spiritist shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones, their bloodguiltiness is upon them.’ “

A medium/spiritist is one who has a dead person (or potentially a masquerading demon) speaking through them. This is not at all relevant to intercession by a departed saint; apples and oranges. To see this in operation one need only go to Acts 16:16 and see that this demonic manifestation of power bears no resemblance to intercession by saints. All the Protestant commentaries I have access to make no relation to this verse and prayers to departed saints.

Finally, 1 Samuel 28:7-19. It’s long so I won’t quote it here. King Saul goes to a necromancer to call up Samuel when he can’t get an answer from God on how to proceed in battle. It appears that she is actually successful, and Samuel is none too pleased. So, is this the same as prayer with the saints? No. Saul 1) goes to a medium, who 2) engages in a necromantic rite, so that 3) he can gain information, and 4) Samuel spoke through the medium to Saul. None of these are the same as prayer with the saints. So, again this really doesn’t apply.

How could the saints know our needs? Would they care?
Do the saints care about us or know our needs? Well, as we can see in Hebrews 12:1 they are witnesses to our lives. They can’t be witnesses unless they are aware of what goes on here on earth. The saints aren’t omnipresent or omniscient, as God is, but then neither are angels and scripture clearly indicates that angels are aware of our prayers. The most likely answer to this objection is that they are aware because God makes them aware.

 

[joe370]

I share your reservation, but to be fair, didn’t Saul consult a witch?

On a related note, was the real prophet Samuel actually summoned from the realm of the non-living?

What does the following have to do with asking those saints in heaven to pray for us? You equate asking those in heaven to pray for us, with what Saul did with the medium at Endor? I am probably misunderstanding you…

"The bible certainly does condone praying for one another in the living but it doesn’t condone praying to the dead for intersecession. Look how things went when Saul summond up the dead prophet Samuel.

 

[EIF5A]

I find it bizarre that an occult practitioner could actually summon Samuel, a prophet of God. Makes me wonder what else occultists are capable of…

Guess we gotta stay on guard and pray for God’s protection and providence.

 

[EIF5A]

What does the following have to do with asking those saints in heaven to pray for us? You equate asking those in heaven to pray for us, with what Saul did with the medium at Endor? I am probably misunderstanding you…

"The bible certainly does condone praying for one another in the living but it doesn’t condone praying to the dead for intersecession. Look how things went when Saul summond up the dead prophet Samuel.

Yes, you are misunderstanding me. I’m saying the two situations are different. One is clearly using nefarious means to contact the dead.

 

[joe370]

Yes, you are misunderstanding me. I’m saying the two situations are different. One is clearly using nefarious means to contact the dead.

My bad…

 

[Gailgirl]

Thanks AidanBradyPop for your post.

No, Jesus did not rebuke the lady in Luke 11. My point was that this was an occasion where he could have affirmed her veneration and status as co-mediatrix and one worthy of prayer. Yet He did not. In fact, he countered and said that those who observe the WORD and observe it are blessed. An even higher status than the subject of womb and breasts.

Perhaps you can help me find in Scripture where it instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God? I cannot find any verse that encourages, or even mentions, believers asking individuals who have passed onto glory for their prayers.

Sometimes I don’t make myself clear, and if this was the case concerning having someone pray for me, or me praying for others, I apologize. We are told to pray for others. The prayers of the righteous availeth much, and these prayers are going to God Himself. This is not the issue. The issue is praying TO a departed person for THEIR intervention or prayers. This is the question. By saying they are alive in Christ may be true, but that does not warrant a prayer to them. And, another question is how do we know that who we are praying TO is not in Purgatory? Who holds that answer?
God bless…Gail

 

[GaryTaylor]

The Church is your answer. Mother Church is who has always determined who is a Saint, She has also determined what is inspired thus Gospel and then codified. She too is the sole authority to interpret sacred scripture.

For example read the last few pages of this thread. You’ll see Hebrews and John quoted. Who wrote Hebrews? How do you know its inspired?

John quoted in this thread is interpreted “literally” by protestants. As astonishing at this is, since John is the “only” Gospel protestants do not take literally. Their Popes in all their congregations do not teach a literal meaning of John…

John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves

How about this next verse literal? …

John 21:25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

That is your dilemma of giving “authority” to each Protestant preacher at the pulpit to teach as a “Pope” while doing the exact same thing and without Divinely Established Authority.

Then you further negate Church Tradition, this preceded the Bible, in the period which preceded, the early church fathers writing allows us to see the teaching handed down.

Here for example “Augustine” which gave Protestants so much new found understanding, yet again you don’t follow the Saint in relation to his understanding of intercessional prayer, Mary, the Saints and so forth.

catholic.com/tracts/the-intercession-of-the-saints

staycatholic.com/ecf_intercession.htm

Traditionally, historically, and in reality, seems to me somehow, some people have in there own wisdom determined what indeed should be determined as relevant in Christs Kingdom.

And apparently in a “few” areas. Just Saying.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Perhaps you can help me find in Scripture where it instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God? I cannot find any verse that encourages, or even mentions, believers asking individuals who have passed onto glory for their prayers.

Its right after the verse where Jesus states; “Just pray to me and your sins are forgiven”.

 

[GaryTaylor]

“You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?” (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).

 

[Jeanne1184]

Thanks AidanBradyPop for your post.

No, Jesus did not rebuke the lady in Luke 11. My point was that this was an occasion where he could have affirmed her veneration and status as co-mediatrix and one worthy of prayer. Yet He did not. In fact, he countered and said that those who observe the WORD and observe it are blessed. An even higher status than the subject of womb and breasts.

Perhaps you can help me find in Scripture where it instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God? I cannot find any verse that encourages, or even mentions, believers asking individuals who have passed onto glory for their prayers.

Sometimes I don’t make myself clear, and if this was the case concerning having someone pray for me, or me praying for others, I apologize. We are told to pray for others. The prayers of the righteous availeth much, and these prayers are going to God Himself. This is not the issue. The issue is praying TO a departed person for THEIR intervention or prayers. This is the question. By saying they are alive in Christ may be true, but that does not warrant a prayer to them. And, another question is how do we know that who we are praying TO is not in Purgatory? Who holds that answer?
God bless…Gail

And, another question is how do we know that who we are praying TO is not in Purgatory? Who holds that answer?

Agreed. Man elevating someone, even with the finest example of the rational mind - still can’t detect the secret sins of someone.

Romans 8:26-27:

1. Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: **but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us **with groanings which cannot be uttered.
2. And He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because He maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures:

1. Yet He [God] who searches the hearts knows what the meaning of the Spirit [Holy Spirit’s utterings] is, because It is pleading in accord with God for holy ones [the saints].

While lining up the prepositions in v. 27, I came across Clarke’s commentary that has a subtle distinction that I find quite interesting. Not sure if the info is tucked somewhere in the NT, or if it’s from revelation to someone.

Clarke’s Commentary on the Bible

He maketh intercession for the saints - The word εντυγχανω signifies to apply one’s self to a person in behalf of another; to intercede or negotiate for.

Our Lord makes intercession for us, by negotiating and managing, as our friend and agent, all the affairs pertaining to our salvation.

And the Spirit of God makes intercession for the saints, not by supplication to God on their behalf, but by directing and qualifying their supplications in a proper manner, by his agency and influence upon their hearts; which, according to the Gospel scheme, is the peculiar work and office of the Holy Spirit. See Taylor ((btw, who’s Taylor?))